Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions

[sancho]

Bottom line, the Europeans will find it extremely difficult to compete against LM and Boeing on price and production capacity. Both American firms are offering a platform that has been in production for many years, the program has paid for itself many times over.

True, the development and production costs in Europe are the main problem for them and as long as they don't jointly develop and produce their weapons and techs, it won't change. However, that wasn't the point of the article right?
The point was, that the technical evaluation found the Rafale to be better than the F15 and similar was reported form the Singapore competition too about EF and Rafale, but in both examples the US won. So to be the best, doesn't mean that you will win such competitions!

The reason Rafale has lost so many bids is because customers deem it too risky to buy a product that still requires years of development with limited or no funding allocated to make it happen.

Actually 180 Rafales are on order from France and they funded and integrated most of the techs and weapons, so there is no real risk for India, Brazil, UAE, Swiss... with the F3 version anymore. Also unlike several of the EF partners, that have an alternative with F35, France will replace all fighters with Rafale. That means they have produce the aimed numbers (around 280) to replace older fighters anyway.
I see such a risks only at Gripen NG and Mig 35 (in development and no orders yet), or F16IN (outdated fighter with most countries phasing it out now, only UAE will have similar level F16s, so the future potential of it is very low), while EF, Rafale and even the F18SH has enough orders from the developing countries for several years.

Look i am just a fanboy and have very very very limited knowledge in technicalities but i have really fallen in love with F-15 SE once i saw it. I would love to see it in IN colours.

Off topic, but $100 million for a F15 with CFTs and some more coatings and improved avionics, or $100 million for a real 5. gen Pak Fa?

The decision should be clear!

 

[indushek]

True, the development and production costs in Europe are the main problem for them and as long as they don't jointly develop and produce their weapons and techs, it won't change. However, that wasn't the point of the article right?
The point was, that the technical evaluation found the Rafale to be better than the F15 and similar was reported form the Singapore competition too about EF and Rafale, but in both examples the US won. So to be the best, doesn't mean that you will win such competitions!



Actually 180 Rafales are on order from France and they funded and integrated most of the techs and weapons, so there is no real risk for India, Brazil, UAE, Swiss... with the F3 version anymore. Also unlike several of the EF partners, that have an alternative with F35, France will replace all fighters with Rafale. That means they have produce the aimed numbers (around 280) to replace older fighters anyway.
I see such a risks only at Gripen NG and Mig 35 (in development and no orders yet), or F16IN (outdated fighter with most countries phasing it out now, only UAE will have similar level F16s, so the future potential of it is very low), while EF, Rafale and even the F18SH has enough orders from the developing countries for several years.



Off topic, but $100 million for a F15 with CFTs and some more coatings and improved avionics, or $100 million for a real 5. gen Pak Fa?

The decision should be clear!

But bro we are already into Pak FA , there is no backing there right. What i am saying in addition let us get some 40-50 of these beauties. What do u say??

 

[soaringphnx]

But bro we are already into Pak FA , there is no backing there right. What i am saying in addition let us get some 40-50 of these beauties. What do u say??

Or we can simply get 40-50 more PAK FAs which have the additional advantage of stealth. Given a choice, would you choose a 4th gen or a 5th gen fighter?

 

[KEETARP]

I never said that OSF, or MICA have that technology .

Correction for my previous posts , where I claimed MICA lacks FPA seeker .

Sancho , you and me both were wrong .
Latest build seeker in MICA have that technology .(ref pic attch below)
I apologize for putting up wrong argument based on two year old brochure .
My bad should have checked latest brochure .

 

[sancho]

First - the active cancellation is dream-land just like Plasma-Stealth...

See and that is the reason why I don't talk, or agrue about it! It's not developed, or ordered and mainly speculation about its capabilities.

When you yourself don't know whether PIMAWS is on offer to India along with Typhoon or not ,
what is config of Tranche3a .

Who knows German typhoon might be flying with Infrared MAWS .
Why do you claim that only Rafale has 360 passive detection when it is not known whether DMM-NG will be developed by 2012 , or will it have DIRCM

That's what I tried to make you understand, it maybe is fully developed by now, but was never integrated in any EF and will only come for future tranches, if fundings for integration will be there. So arguing about a capability of EF, that is not even ordered, or available for any customer doesn't make sense.

Spectra already provides 360° passive detection and enhanced SA, DDM NG is in development and ordered for French Rafale F3 and will be available for them and any export customer from 2012 on. And this improvement will make it more similar and comparable to EO DAS. That's what I am stating from the begining!

Who says Eurofighter can't cue weapons by its EWS suite , I can explain it rt here . And even better than SPECTRA bcoz of HMS
but first you tell me how does SPECTRA achieve this and I will explain it to you .

It can't and you argued instead with HMS, or IRST can cue weapons and that is even true, but not the point! We were talking about improved capabilities of SPECTRA EWS compared to Pretorian EWS and the targeting and weapon cueing is one feature that SPECTRA makes more capable.

Links for that towed decoy on Rafale , Plz ?????
not just claim on Forum

Where did I say anything about TD on Rafale?

Yes , and to add to your cherry-picking
Internal Fuel on F18 6530 kgs , Internal fuel on Rafale 4500Kgs .
Means no fuel tanks on F18 needed .
Buy F18 , what is so unique about Rafale in above payload or range , that F18 lacks .

Why cherry-picking? Didn't I always told you that range with higher payload is a key advantage that the Gripen NG can't offer, especially with our eastern borders in mind? So again I din't changed my view, but pointing out advantages and disadvantages of the fighters in the competition.

In terms of range and payload there is nothing unique about Rafale compared to F18SH. Both are clearly the best in this field, but there are still some advantages that the Rafale can offer us in such strike missions.
Lower RCS, fully passive SPECTRA EWS and FSO for detection and cueing of weapons, radar source codes, that gives the possibility of customisation with Indian weapons and no need to ask foreign countries to config the radar for us. The possibility of additional CFTs, so increased range, or more weapons and less drag. More capable to defend itself in VWR, while doing the stirkes (simultaneously firing of MICA and AASM at air and ground targets).

Manufacturer's don't believe Keypub , below is the link .

Ok, what about BR?

ASMP as an anti radiation missile... quite the opposite actually. By the way, any idea of the price tag ? If you are looking for anti-radiation missiles for Rafale, look at Denel's catalogue. Denel is said to be on the verge of joining the MBDA consortium. There is also AASM, the 125kg version is said to have a range of 100km.

Bharat Rakshak • View topic - MRCA News and Discussion

And there are some French forums stating the same too, however AASM is a very good and more precise weapon than JDAM, the only problem again is the costs. That's why I hope the offered JV/partnership with MBDA for us will include AASM too, would be great to have it besides cheaper Indian, or Russian PGMs.
Btw, you were wrong about MICA IR and FPA, it has this tech integrated too:

General
The MICA seeker has been designed
to fulfil the specific requirements
of modern air to air missiles.
It incorporates the latest technologies
such as focal plane arrays,
ASIC’S and real-time digital signal
processors.

http://www.sagem-ds.com/pdf/en/D084.pdf

Tell me when its done ,
Till then just like CAPTOR-AESA , like it or not others are better .

M88-E4 already flying in Rafale and was even fielded in the Swiss trials, where it showed SC capabilities. Not sure if it was in India too, but it is just an upgrade of the exsisting engine, not the new development of the 90kN engine that UAE might want.

I would say Eurofighter+Gripen is better . Justify your claim

Why do you quote again out of context? I said one of the best T/W rations, not the best. EF is clearly the top in this regard, but Rafale and I expect the Mig 35 close too. Gripen NG, lets wait till reliable specs for weight and payload first.

If true ,
So finally you admit that Rafale is immature in comparison to F18 . I will say buy mature platform rather than wasting on immature .

Yes, it is less mature compared to it and even to F16IN, but way infront of the Mig, EF and Gripen NG.
I would say buy a mature fighter with more potential for the 4 decades it is aimed to be in service, than a more mature, but old fighter.

But this same stupid Zhuk showed whatever IAF wanted to see in Russia , and fired a 100+ kms range BVR from AESA . Targeted a ground with KAB-500 SE

Zhuk-AE AESA radar finished flying tests( 2 years old news )

As I said, still under development and not operational, 2 year old news for the earlier version, but they offered the improved version in MMRCA right?

Bcoz , navy dosen't think it needs AESA rt now ,
I have a link - Let me search for it by NIIR chief himself " We have offered AESA to next batch of mig29 to India"

What do you mean with right now? Won't these Mig 29Ks and N-LCA server on the same carriers, at the same time (as soon as N-LCA is ready of course)? It is not meant for IAC 2 at the end of the decade right? So if they have Zhuk AE on offer and thinks it would be good enough, they clearly would choose it.
Also Zhuk AE for the second batch would mean 3 different radars for IN and do you think that is a good idea? I expect Zhuk AE only as an later upgrade.

 

[sancho]

If su30 is detected at 300 Km then ,Rafale will be at 150 km by

Exactly! So it will be detected at half the distance, which makes it clearly more difficult to counter it, compared to MKI. So by logic, sending a Rafale to such a mission is less risky than sending an MKI, that can be detected and countered much earlier.
Btw, don't misunderstand me, every MMRCA will have this clear advantage, but only Rafale and F18SH imo have the capabilities to do such missions and survive.

Yes , lets compare F18 + Mig35 with rafale

F18+F16 detection range for Rafale(Fully armed rafale) at 120 kms . Coupled with wedgetail AWACS at 150 kms
Immediate engagement and shot fired with AIM120 ( 100+ )

For rafale -
One - Don't tell me Rafale has better radar than F18 ,
Two - Even if Rafale detects f18 at range of 160 Kms+ with AWACS , stiil has to wait till it gets within 50kms of F18 to get shot with MICA (only 50kms range for mica ) .
Get my point

Claimed by you, but as I showed you an F18SH pilot itself, that said that he could detect the Rafale only when it was too late to react.

Wrong , few months back on this same very forum you were telling me " All members involved in this project will get METEOR at the same time " .

Read the quote again please!

...especially when UAE take Rafale

UAE wants Rafale with Meteor even before we get the first MMRCAs!

And plz , stop this cross posting from other forums / blogs . Most of them are their personal opinions . Some are baseless claims .

LOL, I posted news reports that mentioned these exercises, not claims from forums only, so far away from beeing baseless!
But it's funny that you say that and starts quoting from forums too.
Btw, Jaguars against Rafale F1 right?

Sancho/Prateek,

Not to play mod or anything like that..you guys are having great discussions which i am just beginning to grasp!! But lets keep a civil tone to the discussions.
Hate if you guys get into a fight !!

Thanks.

No need to worry, I guess we are old enough to not go over board with it.

 

[sancho]

Correction for my previous posts , where I claimed MICA lacks FPA seeker .

Sancho , you and me both were wrong .
Latest build seeker in MICA have that technology .(ref pic attch below)
I apologize for putting up wrong argument based on two year old brochure .
My bad should have checked latest brochure .

Yeah saw it today too and that is not a problem, everybody can make mistakes. But you are jumping too often and too fast into conclusion although it would be better to say we don't know it at the moment.
You claimed EO DAS IR sensors are better because more of them and with FPA and the French doesn't have FPA technology, because FSO and MICA don't have it, so Spectra must be a gen behind. But that's wrong as I showed you, because even in older versions of the Damocles, or recon pod and now even in MICA IR they are using the same tech. Also the report and the pics I posted about DDM NG was the first that came out, so only because nothing about FPA is said there, doesn't mean it won't have it. Most of its capabilities and specs are simply classified.

Same for the Pretorian! I showed you that similar capabilities will only be available in future tranches and you took the same source and concluded that it could be integrated into German EFs (which btw have the least features of Pretorian, because of cost reasons) and that we can have it for sure too.

Let's keep the discussion an points that are available now, or at least are cleared for the versions that will be available for India for sure ok?

 

[KEETARP]

fully developed by now, but was never integrated in any EF and will only come for future tranches, if fundings for integration will be there

How come you are sure that they won't .
Most of the partners dont want AESA but still under pressure for exports AESA is being developed .
Simple thing that Tech is developed and Tested , if India wants it can be integrated .
To quote from your post only .

The modular nature of the DASS has also resulted in each consortium nation refining their individual DASS fits. At this time it is becoming increasingly clear that only the Royal Air Force Typhoon's will employ the full set of detection and counter measure systems originally envisaged. However this can be seen as being of potential benefit for overseas purchases who will be able to specify individual fits tailored to their requirements. An additional benefit of using such a modular system is that upgrade paths can be somewhat simplified

Spectra already provides 360° passive detection

So does other MRCA jet , no one is active all are Passive detectors . Want to go thru that cycle again .... I can post again

enhanced SA

this enhanced SA is by ---- that DDM-NG infrared MAWS of SPECTRA , correct
Read about MAW-300 infrared MAWS on Gripen with FPA imaging
AN/AL-57 on F18 with 360 UV imaging

DDM NG is in development and ordered for French Rafale F3 and will be available for them and any export customer from 2012 on

In future if developed without any problems ( F35 and A400....) , may be offered to India .
By the way IAF evaluation team evaluated aircraft with 2009 tech on-board .

radar source codes, that gives the possibility of customisation with Indian weapons and no need to ask foreign countries to config the radar for us

So does Gripen , Mig35 , Eurofighter . SAAB integrates any customer's choice free of cost - Did it for South Africa . That's why widest range of weapons .

The possibility of additional CFTs, so increased range, or more weapons and less drag.

Sorry to say but F16 also have them , nothing like future possibility in case for f16 .
Eurofighter also have CFT programe

More capable to defend itself in VWR, while doing the stirkes (simultaneously firing of MICA and AASM at air and ground targets).

Debatable , I would say - F18 best striker out flying .

Ok, what about BR? ,
And there are some French forums stating the same too, however AASM is a very good and more precise weapon than JDAM, the only problem again is the costs.
That's why I hope the offered JV/partnership with MBDA for us will include AASM too, would be great to have it besides cheaper Indian, or Russian PGMs.

Bharat-rakshak , doesn't know more than SAGEM (manufacturer)
French forum credibility is just like AESA for next MKI upgrade on BR forum
JV , good point , But let's leave future ,
Issue in hand , currently French weapons are extremely over-priced

t can't and you argued instead with HMS, or IRST can cue weapons and that is even true, but not the point! We were talking about improved capabilities of SPECTRA EWS compared to Pretorian EWS and the targeting and weapon cueing is one feature that SPECTRA makes more capable.

Since , you haven't answered - I am assuming you don't know .
Wait for below post , I will show how Spectra does it and how other Jet's do it .

In terms of range and payload there is nothing unique about Rafale compared to F18SH. Both are clearly the best in this field, but there are still some advantages that the Rafale can offer us in such strike missions.
Lower RCS, fully passive SPECTRA EWS and FSO for detection and cueing of weapons, radar source codes, that gives the possibility of customisation with Indian weapons and no need to ask foreign countries to config the radar for us.

Lower RCS - Weak and flawed , when you compare with other MRCA jets .
fully passive SPECTRA EWS and FSO for detection and cueing of weapons - So does F18+Eurofighter wait for explanation
radar source codes - Possible with all non-US . What is US gonna do can't predict

Indian weapons

- Good point , but others can do so as well esp SAAB

however AASM is a very good and more precise weapon than JDAM

No one knows more than SAGEM
CEP by SAGEM is 10m , JDAM has -------- should I

Btw, you were wrong about MICA IR and FPA, it has this tech integrated too

I am extremely sorry , for that flawed statement . I have posted earlier

M88-E4 already flying in Rafale and was even fielded in the Swiss trials, where it showed SC capabilities. Not sure if it was in India too, but it is just an upgrade of the exsisting engine, not the new development of the 90kN engine that UAE might want.

No , not a single Rafale in service has uprated engine .
Clean config or with combat load supercruise ???? Gripen supercruises with A2A combat load at Mach1.2-1.5
There is a reason why UAE wants new engine and not uprated one , why ??
Same why , that Even EJ-2000 can be uprated to more than 100kn of thrust in war time but that affects MTBO , FUEL , Failures ... . So EJ-2000 is kept at 90kn

Why do you quote again out of context? I said one of the best T/W rations, not the best. EF is clearly the top in this regard, but Rafale and I expect the Mig 35 close too. Gripen NG, lets wait till reliable specs for weight and payload first.

Fine , that's what I meant - Eurofighter , Gripen are better . Mig is close or equal.

Yes, it is less mature compared to it and even to F16IN, but way infront of the Mig, EF and Gripen NG.
I would say buy a mature fighter with more potential for the 4 decades it is aimed to be in service, than a more mature, but old fighter.

So , conclusion F18,F16 is mature + battle proven + Cheap

As I said, still under development and not operational, 2 year old news for the earlier version, but they offered the improved version in MMRCA right?

Yes , and to tell you by NIIR chief himself .
Better version is not better in terms of Performance , but because extra modules add reliability factor , even if 200 modules fail no effect on radar performance . Even 660 module are more than enough for Ranges asked by IAF.

What do you mean with right now? Won't these Mig 29Ks and N-LCA server on the same carriers, at the same time (as soon as N-LCA is ready of course)? It is not meant for IAC 2 at the end of the decade right? So if they have Zhuk AE on offer and thinks it would be good enough, they clearly would choose it.
Also Zhuk AE for the second batch would mean 3 different radars for IN and do you think that is a good idea? I expect Zhuk AE only as an later upgrade.

You answer your query yourself - Three different radar types ......
Not me , but Navy says it doesn't need AESA . It doesn't go by your wishful thinking to have all goodies . And Gorshkov can only handle 20 aircrafts , its hanger is designed so . Extra Mig29K are for IAC.
LCA not comin before 2015 - or may be late .
Their role is unknown .

 

[dbc]

or F16IN (outdated fighter with most countries phasing it out now, only UAE will have similar level F16s, so the future potential of it is very low), while EF, Rafale and even the F18SH has enough orders from the developing countries for several years.

..wrong, the F-16 is not an "outdated fighter" certainly not for the IAF, the F-16IN or Block 60 is more capable than any other aircraft in the IAF's current arsenal. The F-16 has continuously evolved over the years, as a matter of fact LM plans to incorporate technology from the F-35 into the F-16. The F-16 is surprisingly modular and can easily scale to any role, for instance the APG-68 upgrade to the latest production AESA on F-16 takes only 30 minutes to accomplish.

There has also been a lot of talk about RCS, a fully loaded F-16 will have the same RCS as a fully loaded Rafale nullifying any LO design clean configuration gain.

Actually 180 Rafales are on order from France and they funded and integrated most of the techs and weapons, so there is no real risk for India, Brazil, UAE, Swiss... with the F3 version anymore. Also unlike several of the EF partners, that have an alternative with F35, France will replace all fighters with Rafale. That means they have produce the aimed numbers (around 280) to replace older fighters anyway.

280 orders does not offer the same economies of scale as 4,400 - the numbers just don't add up.Both Rafale and Typhoon are at the lower end of the technology maturity curve and so you are wrong about the absence of risk, integration work is ongoing - the Europeans continue to experience reliability and performance issues - thus the risk of owning a 纸老虎.

Finally the TOT issue, TOT expectation is misunderstood by many; TOT does not give the buyer rights to the intellectual property. It allows a local affiliate / subsidiary or joint venture access to the requisite manufacturing "know how" enabling local authorized production under license - this is the IAF's expectation from all MRCA participants.

All things considered, including the political aspect the American offering is very competitive and so the case for the Rafale is not as cut and dry as you believe it to be. My money is on an American winner and I have an uncanny ability of picking winners .

 

[KEETARP]

Exactly! So it will be detected at half the distance, which makes it clearly more difficult to counter it, compared to MKI. So by logic, sending a Rafale to such a mission is less risky than sending an MKI, that can be detected and countered much earlier.

Out of context ,you are pulling up lines from in between statements .

Rafale will not be detected at half distance of Su30 , wrong ?? . When I wrote they were arbitrary figures

Look at radar equation in terms of RCS , RCS is not directly proportional for range , but varies as 1/4th root of RCS

That is the biggest mistake everyone makes when they try to downplay F15/Su30 like fighter with comparison to others .

So if you compare armed su30 v armed rafale in A2A detection by hostile radar

Contribution mathematically is 1.32 by Rafale(3m2 RCS) and 1.85 by su30 (12m2 RCS) by the fourth root of respective RCS as per above radar equation .
Keep all parameters same , multiply by same 100 in both factors .
Range for Rafale comes 132 , while range for su30 comes 185 .

At these ranges , neither Rafale can fire MICA nor Su30 can fire R77. And Erieye would know each of them at 250kms+ range

For Air2A
50 Kms difference right ??, and su30 makes it up by powerful radar in comparison to RBE2 .
In addition R77 has 50km advantage over Rafale .

For A2G
At this range , Su30/F16/F18/ can fire ARM missile with 150+range while Rafale has to wait to get 60kms for AASM.

50 Kms difference right ??,
Rafale is detected late - yes .
But not that late - that it can hide to get close to AWACS/Jet (within 50 kms of Erieye to fire MICA) before other AWACS or jet knows Rafale is flying around .
Even a mediocre AWACS will pick up Rafale (2-3m2 RCS) at more than 60kms
For that matter Erieye2000 + F16-APG68 + su30-MKK + Jf17 have powerful radars .

All above figures are just speculation , far from actual RCS figures of Jet+missile+Tank which only Manufacturer's know .


Point stands -
-Buying rafale - you don't go invisible
-MICA can only be fired at 50Kms range ( Armed Rafale dosen't have stealth to get close to within 50kms of Eriye undetected )
-Rafale lacks HMS for WVR edge
-F16 /MKM can fire AIM120/R77 at more than 100kms range

Conclusion , buying any Jet in MRCA as costly as F22/Pak-Fa even , dosen't brings stealth to outsmart F16+Erieye and reach within 50kms of F16 undetected ,
only jet that can do it are outright stealth design in all electromagnetic spectrum.,
or a jet like su30 armed with long-range anti-AWACS missile .

RCS point is moot and flawed ,
Eurofighter and Gripen have better RCS than Rafale and more BVR capable with AIM120c7 and of course with HMS

Btw, don't misunderstand me, every MMRCA will have this clear advantage, but only Rafale and F18SH imo have the capabilities to do such missions and survive

No , F18+F16 both
wait for my next post about Cueing of weapons by EWS suite

Claimed by you, but as I showed you an F18SH pilot itself, that said that he could detect the Rafale only when it was too late to react.

cherry picking from blogs
Don't tell me you believe it .

Just to show Flaws -
No mention of ROE( Engagement rules , whether strong point of F18 were neutralized by rules - Like just 50kms range allowed with AIM120 to make it favorable to French wrt to MICA + Radar were in training mode to neutralize APG-79 which is strongest point of F18)
No mention of AWACS , while 2 posts back educating me PAF has awacs ........ etc etc etc
Hard to swallow APG79 AESA on F18 failed in comparison to PESA-RBE of Rafale
Third - 10KW antennae of APG79 which can detect 1m2 RCS at more than 120+Kms failed to detect 2m2 Rafale .

To answer that , still vintage Jaguar could detect Rafale and destroy . And a Bison can beat F15E.

UAE wants Rafale with Meteor even before we get the first MMRCAs

Does it imply Sweden,UK,Germany who are developers and partners will get late than UAE ( if at all deal finalizes this year) ----- Baseless .

But it's funny that you say that and starts quoting from forums too.
Btw, Jaguars against Rafale F1 right?

To show , how you are selectively biased
DBC is correct .
You happily quote - Rafale did this , did that , but don't tell when Rafale lose .
In Red-Flag2008 as Video of Col debriefing says - French were not engaging/taking shot but only spying out there .
But you quote "rafale performed excellent in Red-Flag " not that video .
A video is better proof than some blog/forum statements by some random person
btw you mention Bharat-Rakshak link but you don't point to another article link on same page describing Rafale as an ordinary machine + criticism of rafale .
I have not posted single evaluation report where Gripen/Eurofighter/F16/F18 won or are leading .
Or reports where two Eurofighter beat 14 F15

 

[KEETARP]

CUEING of WEAPONS by EW suite

To show how much hyped that cueing by Spectra thing is , and others have same capability

For cueing up weapons by a sensor (like Spectra), you need
- that it can Locate and Identify threats to cue sensors and even target weapons
- Should have a Ranging capability to provide the target coordinates to weapons while cueing .

How this is done in Rafale -
Ranging of threats in Rafale can be done by either SPECTRA alone + or in combination with Laser-Range-Finder of FSO / or RBE radar .

Range-finding Capability which everyone claims for Spectra- is achieved by the RWR(Part of ESM-Electronic support measure) of SPECTRA , done via sequential triangulation and amplitude measurement.
RWR of the SPECTRA can provide the target coordinates to weapons like AASM as Rafale B F2 have done during the september 2006 TLP at Albacete, Spain (was reported in one of the AFM issues around that time).
point to note - you aren't using the radar to get those data and you don't need the LaserRanngeFinder or any other sensor as well .
SPECTRA System is capable to find exact locations of ground based/naval emitters which aren't moving at all or not very fast. These data are enough to target a weapon such as the AASM. A radar doesn't provide you with much more details regarding localisation of ground targets either.
Second system that provides Range-Finding is --by Thermal imaging Angular resolution of DDM-NG MAWS .
Angular location of Spectra sensors
All of course done passively .

Point to be noted that cueing is for specific weapon system only -
SPECTRAL cueing is specific for MICA+ASMP .
SPECTRA can not cue ASRAAM / METEOR / Paveway bombs for good reasons , missile being cued should have launchers integrated with data from particular sensors connected by high-speed buses .

Advanced RWR systems are better described as ESM and provide capabilities which were previously just found on dedicated ELS.
ESM today includes RWR,LWR,MAWS to form along with Jammers what we call Electronic-Warfare suite .

Must read published paper link below

BHARAT RAKSHAK MONITOR: Volume 5(1)

Airborne Electronic Countermeasures


And this kind of capability isn't even new, Tornado ECR ECR (Electronic Combat-Recce) as well as the Tornado IDS (InterDiction-Strike) and F-16CJ with their ELS/HTS/TI Emitter Locating System (ELS) could so as well to target HARMs passively .
To add those ELS-Emitter location system /HTS Harm Targeting system constitute what we call ESM ( Electronic support measures).

The "newness" of modern RWRs is that they don't act as simple threat warning devices, but also as SA tools. This is certainly not unique to the SPECTRA's RWR , Other systems such as the F-22's AN/ALR-94, Typhoon's DASS , FalconEdges L-105 can do so as well .

Here is more information about ESM + RWR in modern EW suites - by JANE'S
Integrated defence: DAS evolves to warn aircraft of emergent threats - Jane's Defence Systems News.

To bust this big myth that only SPECTRA ( EW suite) can cue weapons passively , I am taking example of Falcon-Edge program for Block60F16 of UAE

Falcon edge system, it includes a passive location/direction finding capability that uses interfereometry instead of triangulation and amplitude measurment.

Interferometry involves use of Direction finding antennas

BAE SYSTEMS Advanced Systems was recently awarded a contract by Northrop Grumman for the development of a Precision Direction Finding (PDF) antenna subsystem. The PDF Array is part of the Northrop Grumman Falcon Edge Program.

The initial contract for the design, development, prototype and manufacture of two Engineering Development Model (EDM) shipsets is valued at $1.98 million.

BAE SYSTEMS has also been informed by Northrop Grumman that they are the successful bidders for more antenna assemblies on the Falcon Edge Program. That award, coupled with the anticipated production of the antennas and associated radomes for 80 aircraft and spares, places the value of this contract just over $16 million with a performance period starting in 2002 and ending in 2004.

Source for above - BAE Systems Investor Brief - March 2002

One of the most secretly held pieces of equipment in the new batch of block 60 F-16s seems to be the EW gear, aka Falcon Edge or IEWS (Integrated Electronic Warfare Suite).
According to the Norhrop Grumman's Defensive Systems Division (DSD) website, Falcon Edge is "based on a revolutionary concept that leverages the latest radio frequency (RF) and digital technologies(...). Falcon Edge is comprised of two major subsystems: a passive receiver and an active jammer. Both systems utilize common technology that allows higher levels of subsystem interoperability. Falcon Edge features high sensitivity, wide-band digital receivers, and digitally based countermeasures".
The advanced EW system is "entirely internal, as opposed to the external pods carried by USAF F-16. The system incorporates classified digital technology that warns pilots of enemy radars while simultaneously sending out countermeasure signals, and will automatically dispense chaff and/or flares to decoy enemy radar or missiles. A significant capability is that it also provides the location of the threat emitter, rather than simply showing the direction the radar is comming from, to allow the pilot to attack it".

This last line above would clearify - Its not only Rafale that have Passive cueing by EW suite , but F16E are capable of doing so as well . In addition F16 have AN/AAR-56 UV imaging system to provide angular resolution of targets .


Jane's IDR (International Defence Review/February, 2001) -
It states that Northrop Grumman "has additionally developed the LR-105 RWR and precision targeting system for the F-16 Block 60. The LR-105 is a highly modified adaptation of the LR-100 electronic support measures (ESM) system, which combines the NexGen digital receiver chipset with Litton's patented Long Baseline Interferometer passive geolocation technology".

The Falcon Edge provides radar warning, jamming, and emitter targeting. As in the case of the F/A-22 and JSF, the passive EW system helps to locate and identify airborne and surface targets and can locate a surface target in distance as well as bearing. BAE Systems (Nashua, NH), which did not win the integrating contract for the EW system but provides precision direction-finding (PDF) antennas to Northrop Grumman, has stated that the Block 60 system was designed to "exceed existing system capabilities several-fold," including long- and short-baseline interferometry antennas used for target location.

People more interested should read - about Falcon-Edge+L105
Here is one of them -
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_view...asc-sid-9e21fe80cc553c506f995d4d0a92e34c.html

Even though this line
" A significant capability is that it also provides the location of the threat emitter, rather than simply showing the direction the radar is comming from, to allow the pilot to attack it "
should be enough to clear doubt about uniqueness of Rafale .
I explain now how F18 does that

F18 has along with its AN/ALR-67 (v)3 RWR/ESM , an integrated bus with CLC1000 ( HARM avionics) .

AN/ALR-67(V)3 Advanced Special Receiver

The AN/ALR-67(V)3 Advanced Special Receiver is a radar warning receiver (RWR) . The ASR is a radar warning receiver (RWR) intended to supersede the AN/ALR-67E(v)2 [formerly AN/ALR-67(v)2 (ECP-510)] with extended capabilities in detection and processing of air defense threat radars of the mid 1990 and beyond time period. It functions cooperatively with the onboard suppression and defensive systems (high-speed anti-radiation missile (HARM), countermeasure dispensers, and RF jammer) via data exchanged over the EW multiplex bus and the HARM data bus.

The ASR collection categories include: high band pulse (2-40 GHz); high band continuous wave; low band pulse (less than 2 GHz); and millimeter wave MMW (28-40 GHz). The ASR provides signal detection, direction finding, and identification of radio frequency (RF) and MMW threat emitters including: scanning, pulse Doppler and continuous wave tracking, acquisition and early warning radars, and missile guidance.

The red highlighted part shows capability of RWR-ASR of F18 has ability to passively cue weapons .
This should suffice but to explain how HARM is cued

AGM-88 HARM (high-speed antiradiation missile) - Smart Weapons

The CP-1001B/C HARM Command Launch Computer (CLC) is an electronics subsystem installed on the airframe to interface with the AGM-88 A/B/C HARM Missile. The CLC and associated software package are compatible with all AGM-88 A/B/C missiles. The CLC receives target data from the missile and onboard avionics, processes the data for display to the aircrew to the appropriate display, determines target priority, and collects aircraft data for pre-launch hand-off to the AGM-88 HARM missile. The CLC determines time coincidence between the AGM-88 HARM missile and the RWR directional data and pulse repetition intervals and formats. The identification data is processed by the CLC to perform target identification, prioritization, and display information. The CLC generates targeting commands to the AGM-88 HARM missile for appropriate target and provides Targeting and guidance information for the AGM-88 to Target Of Interest (TOI) on offensive attack missions.

HARM can be employed in one of three modes, selected with PB3, PB4, and PB5 of the HARM SMS MDI page.
Of which the Self-protection mode is passive and by EW suite alone .
SP (self-protect) mode is an automatic targeting mode of the HARM. When the HARM SP mode is selected and the
Superhornet's EW system detects that a ground-based radar is guiding a missile at your aircraft, a HARM will
automatically be selected for firing and the intended target will be boxed on the HUD and in the SMS MDI display. No
other emitters will appear in the MDI. The next press of the weapon pickle button will release a HARM.

If a hostile radar is guiding a missile intended for your aircraft, the HARM SP mode will activate even if another weapon,
or even another master mode, is currently selected. This condition is called an "SP pullback", indicating that the current
master mode and weapon selection has been pulled back and replaced with an active HARM. When a pullback condition
exists, "HARM" will appear in the middle of the HUD. If the release of a HARM is currently inhibited, "HARM" will appear.
HARM release will be inhibited if the landing gear is down, the Master Arm is OFF, or if the release of another weapon is
currently in progress.
The only time a HARM pullback will not occur in SP mode is if the HRM-OR (HARM Override) option is boxed on the
SMS or EW MDI pages. This option is toggled with PB16 on either of these two MDI pages; when the HRM-OR text is
boxed the override is active. HARM Override is useful for the terminal stages of weapons deployment, when an SP
pullback would interrupt weapons delivery.

Like TOO mode, HARMs fired in SP mode will attempt to strike their target even if target emissions cease while the
HARM is in flight.

http://tsh.war-fighters.net/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=39

F/A-18 & EA-18G PROGRAM

 

[Insane]

Its really annoying to see dates being postponed like Sunny Paaji said in a movie called "DAMINI" with respect to Indian courtroom procedure -

" Tareeq pe Tareeq ... Tareeq pe Tareeq... Mili hai to bas Tareeq .. Insaaf Nahin Mila " ...

So Bring on Justice sooner.. Delayed justice is equivalent to no justice..

 

[Insane]

BTW...

F-18 SH is most likely going to win it.. so why delay ... I am fine with any of these 6 birds coming on time.

If i have to guess the shortlist it would be -

F 18 for sure..
Either of Gripen or Mig-35 ( People think they are ruled out, but they are not)
Either of Eurofighter or Rafale... (I just feel both of them wont make it to the shortlist)

 

[CONNAN]

MiG-35 OLS RADAR source defence talk . com

OLS, as well as radar, allows to detect targets and aim weapon systems. But, unlike the radar, OLS has no emission which means - cant be detected. OLS works like a human eye - it gets picture and analyzes it. Usually its been said radars are the eyes of the plane. But to be exact, its more locator device, like whales has. But OLS is really the eyes of the plane and they are very sharp. OLS works not only in visible bands. Very important part of plane vision is IR picture. NII PP engineers has chosen more short-wave bands for the matrix, which has increased sensitivity of the complex in several times and has increased detection range greatly. MiG-35 OLS may see USAF stealth planes very nicely as well. Today its impossible to hide the plane from the complex of powerful optics with IR vision. This optical system can distinguish targets and aim weapons as well. Since, it has no emmissions, it is very silent

 

[indushek]

Or we can simply get 40-50 more PAK FAs which have the additional advantage of stealth. Given a choice, would you choose a 4th gen or a 5th gen fighter?

But buddy F-15 is a proven fighter and that too u cannot call it 4th gen i.e. i am speaking about F15 SE, which is said to store weapons in internal bays and has frontal stealth features right. So 40-50 will be an added advantage. Love to see F-15 kicking the @$$$ of F-16.