Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[BON PLAN]

Yet partially successful, can't match 35s.

Su35 wasn't born when EF was on the drawing board.

And what's so different between a Su35 and a Su27 or Su30 ???
It's a different name but quite the same bird. It's more like a F16 bk50 versus a bk40 than a F16 vs a F5.

Gen 5 is actually a gen4 fighter with stealth, thats what USAF thinks.

No. That's what Lockeed Martin propaganda said.
An the LM propaganda change smoothly.... At the beginning a LM'5th gen was a plane with supercruise capability, VLO, highly maneuvrable and with sensor fusion.

For the F35 needs, the supercruise capability was removed. As probably the highly maneuvrability very soon.

 

[Dem!god]

At most India will go for 18 more Rafael. I don don't see many more Rafael coming to india due to it's high price tag. We certainly can't afford such costly plane in large no.
But I think even 54 will be detrimental in war scenarios.

 

[Gessler]

At most India will go for 18 more Rafael. I don don't see many more Rafael coming to india due to it's high price tag. We certainly can't afford such costly plane in large no.
But I think even 54 will be detrimental in war scenarios.

You're not getting it.

Even single-engine Western 4.5 gen planes like Gripen cost nearly as much as Rafale on a per-unit flyaway basis. When this is the case - you have two logical options. 1) Buy a single type in large numbers or 2) Don't buy any at all. You think having a large fleet of Rafale is costly? Buying small numbers of two different types will be equally costly and will actually cost more time & money for logistics in the long run.

Economies of scale.

If at all a 3rd type of MRCA (other than Tejas & Rafale) is to be procured, it will be procured in it's own right - not as a stop-gap measure to fulfill the numbers that would otherwise be filled by Rafale. 36 or 36+18 for IAF does not make any sense from either a tactical or economic perspective. This is only the first, off-the-shelf batch.

We cannot replace 130+ Jaguars and ~100 MiG-27s with 36-54 Rafales and still be able to reach the squadron-strength requirements mandated by IAF as necessary if we are to meet our perceived threats.

 

[Dem!god]

You're not getting it.

Even single-engine Western 4.5 gen planes like Gripen cost nearly as much as Rafale on a per-unit flyaway basis. When this is the case - you have two logical options. 1) Buy a single type in large numbers or 2) Don't buy any at all. You think having a large fleet of Rafale is costly? Buying small numbers of two different types will be equally costly and will actually cost more time & money for logistics in the long run.

Economies of scale.

If at all a 3rd type of MRCA (other than Tejas & Rafale) is to be procured, it will be procured in it's own right - not as a stop-gap measure to fulfill the numbers that would otherwise be filled by Rafale. 36 or 36+18 for IAF does not make any sense from either a tactical or economic perspective. This is only the first, off-the-shelf batch.

We cannot replace 130+ Jaguars and ~100 MiG-27s with 36-54 Rafales and still be able to reach the squadron-strength requirements mandated by IAF as necessary if we are to meet our perceived threats.

I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.) Only logical choice for IAF is to rely on home grown fighter and invest in LCA and AMCA. How could we have afforded 126 Rafael with 30 billion $ + bill. We have other project like FGFA ,updating sukhoi to super sukhoi, helicopters, plane mounted radars etc. We need to be realistic when looking into our options.
For MRCA deal india should have gone with only one type of aircraft. If Rafael were too costly india should have dropped it and choose the next best one that fit in out budget.
If IAF want to have the sanctioned strength of 42 + squadrons then it must be fulfilled by our own platforms. It must invest in home grown jets and accept it's responsibility too. Defence is important but there are many other areas which need investment and care from government on priority basis.

 

[Avyator]

One thing I'm not understanding, that nobody seems to answer so far, is why are we going for a second MII LWF line? Why can't we just focus on mass producing Tejas?

 

[BON PLAN]

I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.) Only logical choice for IAF is to rely on home grown fighter and invest in LCA and AMCA. How could we have afforded 126 Rafael with 30 billion $ + bill. We have other project like FGFA ,updating sukhoi to super sukhoi, helicopters, plane mounted radars etc. We need to be realistic when looking into our options.
For MRCA deal india should have gone with only one type of aircraft. If Rafael were too costly india should have dropped it and choose the next best one that fit in out budget.
If IAF want to have the sanctioned strength of 42 + squadrons then it must be fulfilled by our own platforms. It must invest in home grown jets and accept it's responsibility too. Defence is important but there are many other areas which need investment and care from government on priority basis.

Once you have paid for quite all fixed prices for Rafale (2 bases accomodations, new weapons + new pod + new helmet + .... adaptation), the price of a Rafale is "only" 95 euros millions.
And india has already purchased these fixed costs.

A new plane? => nearly 2 billions new fixed costs more.

One thing I'm not understanding, that nobody seems to answer so far, is why are we going for a second MII LWF line? Why can't we just focus on mass producing Tejas?

You're right !

I think it's a politic and diplomatic gesticulation.

Politic : to put pressure on HAL (and on Dassault !)

Diplomatic : we never know, if SAAB or LM make a wonderfull and very cheap deal ....

 

[dadeechi]

I don't know how true it is,but i think it will be the biggest mistake of iaf if we didn't induct the rafis in large number, similar mistake we have done earlier by not accepting soviets offer on mig29s.

And the Mrage-2K deal too.

Once you have paid for quite all fixed prices for Rafale (2 bases accomodations, new weapons + new pod + new helmet + .... adaptation), the price of a Rafale is "only" 95 euros millions.
And india has already purchased these fixed costs.

A new plane? => nearly 2 billions new fixed costs more.

This is the piece that many people seem to overlook and are prorating cost of 36 to 126.

I do understand bro what you are saying, but we have limited defence budget. It is poor choice of IAF in the past that is making it suffer (and govt too.) Only logical choice for IAF is to rely on home grown fighter and invest in LCA and AMCA. How could we have afforded 126 Rafael with 30 billion $ + bill. We have other project like FGFA ,updating sukhoi to super sukhoi, helicopters, plane mounted radars etc. We need to be realistic when looking into our options.
For MRCA deal india should have gone with only one type of aircraft. If Rafael were too costly india should have dropped it and choose the next best one that fit in out budget.
If IAF want to have the sanctioned strength of 42 + squadrons then it must be fulfilled by our own platforms. It must invest in home grown jets and accept it's responsibility too. Defence is important but there are many other areas which need investment and care from government on priority basis.

Another 90 RAFALEs would be in the range of $10 billion and not $30 Billion.

 

[Taygibay]

Decide on MII quickly because China has its eyes on the Raffy too :

​

Tay -----» [ ]

 

[dadeechi]

I don't know how true it is,but i think it will be the biggest mistake of iaf if we didn't induct the rafis in large number, similar mistake we have done earlier by not accepting soviets offer on mig29s.

Exactly thats my concern and I hope this single engine figter tender doesn't screw up that hope. Wheras Dassault have themselves said would work on making Tejas better by giving Radar, Engine, Stealth an sensors and also the same for AMCA as well.

India needs 850 Fighters for the desired 42 Squadrons.

If we take out 300 SU-30 MKI, we still need 550 fighters

Tejas, Gripen, & FGFA would be available only in 2024 and later

Only F-16s and RAFALEs are available immediately to fulfill in the numbers starting 2018.

Decide on MII quickly because China has its eyes on the Raffy too :

View attachment 345976
​

Tay -----» [ ]

China would not buy 100s like India. At most they would get a squadron or two to help reverse engineer like they are doing with SU-35s.

 

[Dem!god]

And the Mrage-2K deal too.



This is the piece that many people seem to overlook and are prorating cost of 36 to 126.




Another 90 RAFALEs would be in the range of $10 billion and not $30 Billion.

That doesn't seem the case otherwise govt would have gone ahead with 126 Rafael. There would have been no need for second MRCA.

 

[GURU DUTT]

India needs 850 Fighters for the desired 42 Squadrons.

If we take out 300 SU-30 MKI, we still need 550 fighters

Tejas, Gripen, & FGFA would be available only in 2024 and later

Only F-16s and RAFALEs are available immediately to fulfill in the numbers starting 2018.



China would not buy 100s like India. At most they would get a squadron or two to help reverse engineer like they are doing with SU-35s.

270+42 MKI(super sukhoi) = 312 (17.3 squads) (18 jets per squad )
36+126 rafale =162 =9 squads (18 jets per squad )
126 F16 = 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
63 Fulkrums =3.5 squads (18 jets per squad )
52M2k=2.8 squads (18 jets per squad )
126=jags= 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
126=Bisons=7squads (18 jets per squad )
40+80 Tejas=6 (20 jets)

thats approx 59.6 squads most of them accept bisons with AESA Radar and long range BVR and latest HMDS and HOBS combo with all the bells and whistels associated with 4.5 gen fighter jet so i guess we are pretty solid placed till AMCA & PAKFA-FGFA come from 2025 to 2030

 

[dadeechi]

That doesn't seem the case otherwise govt would have gone ahead with 126 Rafael. There would have been no need for second MRCA.

Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"

The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.

270+42 MKI(super sukhoi) = 312 (17.3 squads) (18 jets per squad )
36+126 rafale =162 =9 squads (18 jets per squad )
126 F16 = 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
63 Fulkrums =3.5 squads (18 jets per squad )
52M2k=2.8 squads (18 jets per squad )
126=jags= 7 squads (18 jets per squad )
126=Bisons=7squads (18 jets per squad )
40+80 Tejas=6 (20 jets)

thats approx 59.6 squads most of them accept bisons with AESA Radar and long range BVR and latest HMDS and HOBS combo with all the bells and whistels associated with 4.5 gen fighter jet so i guess we are pretty solid placed till AMCA & PAKFA-FGFA come from 2025 to 2030

It would be like the below

 

[GURU DUTT]

Well, the government is following the concept of "privatize profits socialize losses"

The deal for 36 is doing all the heavy lifting so that the private player part of the MII would only have the profits.



It would be like the below

View attachment 345982

pretty much close but dont forget to include or write off jags and bisons just yet maybe bisons but not the jags but 200 f16s i like that i was trying to play it safe but lets see what happens

 

[dadeechi]

One thing I'm not understanding, that nobody seems to answer so far, is why are we going for a second MII LWF line? Why can't we just focus on mass producing Tejas?

Because Tejas is not matured yet for mass production and India is seeking help to make it a success. This is where SAAB and Dassault come in.

 

[Avyator]

Because Tejas is not matured yet for mass production and India is seeking help to make it a success. This is where SAAB and Dassault come in.

That's interesting, I thought when they settled on the MK1A and nixed the whole MK2 idea, we were gonna start churning out MK1A's to phase out all the old MiG 21s & 27s.

So I assume the 2nd LWF is to plug the gaps until LCA is ready for mass production?