Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

If the GoI is so desperate to placate the US MIC then go for a C-130XJ line in India or a MQ-4C purchase or any number of products that would actually be useful to India and wouldn't cause terminal damage to India's own fledgling military industry.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...global-aerospace-companies/article8561752.ece

http://www.livemint.com/Industry/wX...dvanced-Systems-to-make-Apache-fuselages.html

 

[Abingdonboy]

'Make in India' pitch to sell Swedish fighter for air force

Sujan Dutta

Mikael OlssonA prototype of the Gripen E in the hangar of the company's Linkoping assembly plant.Pictures by Sujan Dutta​

March 26: The uncertainty over India's negotiations with France for the Rafale fighter aircraft and the air force's desperation to stall the depletion of its combat fleet have prompted global aviation majors to dovetail their planes into Prime Minister Narendra Modi's "Make in India" campaign.​

After US companies Lockheed Martin and Boeing, Swedish firm Saab has now said that it is willing to transfer technology and set up a new company with an Indian partner to make its latest fighter aircraft, the Gripen E, in India. The Gripen E is being built block-by-block and is slated to roll out of its production assembly in May this year.

"Sweden is looking for a market. India is looking for technology. The Gripen E can be the frontline multi-role fighter made in India," said Saab's technical director and product manager for the aircraft, Gideon Sines, to a group of Indian journalists visiting the manufacturing facilities in Sweden. The visit was sponsored by Saab.


http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160327/jsp/nation/story_76679.jsp

https://twitter.com/x/status/732869516015894528

https://twitter.com/x/status/732838097931620352

https://twitter.com/x/status/732866772454498304

https://twitter.com/x/status/732472196245774336

​

SAAB take propaganda or "marketing" as they would call it to a new high/low. Wtf is the Indian flag doing at the roll out of the Gripen E? India has ZERO attachment to that type.

It is a well known fact that SAAB has the largest marketing/advertisement budget of all global defence OEMs in India and despite developments to the contrary they have continued to pitch the Gripen aggressively in India and I'm told the Gripen is advertised just as much now as during the MMRCA. Every defence magazine in India features countless SAAB advertisements and I'm told from time to time even billboards in Delhi feature the Gripen

 

[Nimitam]

So pointing out mistakes ( such as procurement fiascos, ask any one from outside Bharat ) is
arrogance? Then you are in an unfixable jam, my poor fellow! Stuck in a rut, a temporal drift ...

And you must have missed those posts where I specifically mentioned that my comments held
true even if you replaced the Rafale with another jet which sadly they do ...

Calm down, you have less enemies than you think, Tay.

P.S. I know StephenC, I was answering tongue in cheek.

You are entitled to your opinion and quite frankly I don't care for them.

But if you are going to keep whining about how the DM is not competent just because you do not get to eat your pie then do not expect any sympathy. The DM puts INDIA first, not Rafale or France or even IAF first. So far i have not seen anything that tells me otherwise.

I don't care for the opinion of anyone outside Bharat. When I do, I will seek them at my convenience. Them and you are free to whine and bitch all they want, just remember what happens when you do it to Indians.

All this does not make you my 'enemy', just an arrogant opinionated prick who needs to be told to shut up because he just would not stop ....

 

[BON PLAN]

if 2nd mmrca is economical and capable then 1st mmrca ie rafale should be dropped... following rafale route IAF will never achieve 42 squadron level.... rafale damn expensive. ... though 4th gen.... also we don't need 2 mmrca's

Some argument please? Do you even know the price of a sole dry Rafale ? I'm afraid not....

For reference, out of 630 points in the IAF's evaluation,
the Typhie got 614, Rafale 613 and none of the rest
gathered 600.

Just sayin', Tay.

A very interesting data. First time I read that.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Some argument please? Do you even know the price of a sole dry Rafale ? I'm afraid not....

.

Of course he doesn't, those that makes such absurd statements never do. The problem is the narrative that has been created against the Rafale and thus it is now PERCIEVED as the "uber expensive" platform that poor India cannot afford and if it goes for the purchase it will go bankrupt.

Sad to say but Dassualt has utterly lost the media/PR battle and has allowed itself to be misrepresented not just in India but on the global stage.

 

[Nimitam]

A very interesting data. First time I read that.

Makes you wonder how he got such classified data .....

Of course he doesn't, those that makes such absurd statements never do. The problem is the narrative that has been created against the Rafale and thus it is now PERCIEVED as the "uber expensive" platform that poor India cannot afford and if it goes for the purchase it will go bankrupt.

Sad to say but Dassualt has utterly lost the media/PR battle and has allowed itself to be misrepresented not just in India but on the global stage.

You need to stop projecting your insecurities and desires in this thread.

If Rafale is the Best option for India, the DM will but them. If we have better options then DM will go with that. .......... unless you wish to convince us that you know more than the DM of India ?

This is not the CONgress govt. to be swayed by the media or underhand dealings.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Abingdonboy

Well I recently got the figure that Saab offerred to us under MII and is costing $20Bn for Gripen E in two tranches of 120+80. And there are additional costs as well like

• The support package additional.
• The base infra additional.
• Weapon customization additional.
• Switching to 2052 AESA and recalibration plus recertification cost additional.

The good source added even 120 Gripen E will almost like double when we add all the other costs.

I avoided this here bcz this is suppose to be a bit confidential. Of course I also happen to knw abt the F16 F35 costing as well as F18ASH new customized version. But those numbers to be honest is more streamlined and less murky then Saab ones.

The F16 F35 plan is the cheapest among the 3 -LM, Boeing and Saab. And in terms of technology the details are still nt out as certain relaxation is being hoped from US Senate side.

What is interesting is the version which US is offering as well as capability versus the price as compared to any other AF is pretty lucrative. On top they have thrown in some solid work from Israel.

Yet LM has slowly stopped the marketing angle understanding that decision won't be made by coloring opinions but via firm capability evaluation and geo political strategies.

Yet Saab does nt learn and shamelessly misleading day and night all over.

Beauty is both LM and Boeing knows India won't buy so easily with just fake promises with a strong government, a opposition waiting to discredit government at each and every corner, a tough nut DM, and most importantly Indian Standard Time...

 

[Piper]

And just when India was getting dull and I was thinking of beating a retreat, there is a shot of adrenaline today. As they say here "Stars are aligning." For what it is worth here are my two cents.

- A bitter sweet deal for french. Not what they wanted but at this stage they would be happy with anything. Can't blame them. DA folks are absolutely exhausted, just a few more weeks.

- Good work SAAB, your persistence has paid off. They made huge investments and put in a lot of work.
- Biggest congratulations to the home team . Absolutely fabulous work! Guys you showed the true meaning of stealth! Gauls had no clue

In the end everyone gets a piece of the pie. Biggest looser IMHO is IAF, they will never get rid of the menagerie of aircrafts.

As per me the in next 6 years we are looking at

A, B (new acquisitions)

C, C+ (homegrown brew in foreign crystal)

D, D+, E. E+, (Ivan)

G+F (old stock)

H,I (future designs)

Let's see if anyone correctly identifies all

 

[randomradio]

Of course he doesn't, those that makes such absurd statements never do. The problem is the narrative that has been created against the Rafale and thus it is now PERCIEVED as the "uber expensive" platform that poor India cannot afford and if it goes for the purchase it will go bankrupt.

Sad to say but Dassualt has utterly lost the media/PR battle and has allowed itself to be misrepresented not just in India but on the global stage.

Not correct. Dassault is in the middle of negotiations. They can't engage in PR battles by Indian law.

They have zero need to engage in a PR battle anyway since military acquisitions are not influenced by public opinion. So Dassault has no need to impress anybody except Parrikar.

 

[Abingdonboy]

And just when India was getting dull and I was thinking of beating a retreat, there is a shot of adrenaline today. As they say here "Stars are aligning." For what it is worth here are my two cents.

- A bitter sweet deal for french. Not what they wanted but at this stage they would be happy with anything. Can't blame them. DA folks are absolutely exhausted, just a few more weeks.

- Good work SAAB, your persistence has paid off. They made huge investments and put in a lot of work.
- Biggest congratulations to the home team . Absolutely fabulous work! Guys you showed the true meaning of stealth! Gauls had no clue

In the end everyone gets a piece of the pie. Biggest looser IMHO is IAF, they will never get rid of the menagerie of aircrafts.

As per me the in next 6 years we are looking at

A, B (new acquisitions)

C, C+ (homegrown brew in foreign crystal)

D, D+, E. E+, (Ivan)

G+F (old stock)

H,I (future designs)

Let's see if anyone correctly identifies all

Excuse me? Nothing has changed. The Gripen and F-16 still have no chance and the F-18 has an outside chance but judging by how they acted a few months back I wouldn't place any bets on it getting into the IAF. As it stands Dassualt is the sole OEM to have entered into advanced talks for setting up a production line in India, everything else is propaganda and mindless speculation.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

http://rafalenews.blogspot.in/2011/02/first-hand-flying-dassault-rafale.html

My mistake!

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Abingdonboy

Well I recently got the figure that Saab offerred to us under MII and is costing $20Bn for Gripen E in two tranches of 120+80. And there are additional costs as well like

• The support package additional.
• The base infra additional.
• Weapon customization additional.
• Switching to 2052 AESA and recalibration plus recertification cost additional.

The good source added even 120 Gripen E will almost like double when we add all the other costs.
...

What are SAAB smoking?


+ it is interesting that it seems as though the Rafale MII isn't directly competing with SAAB/LM/Boeing and that it seems as if the Rafale MII is pretty much a certainty at this point. The more I look at it the more I think Parrikar is hell bent on a second MMRCA and that there will be 300-400 MMRCA in the IAF (Rafale and one other) the logic behind this just doesn't make sense to me though. 2/3 of the options on the table (Gripen and F-16) will kill the LCA and I can't see the same DM who brags about having saved the LCA taking such a call which just leaves the F-18 (along with the reasons stated above such as the Gripen being stupidly expensive for what it is) and that itself is a very costly and increasingly outdated peice of kit and if it is the ASH/"Silent" Hornet on the table it is an entirely unfunded type.


This is before we even talk about the IN's requirements.

Maybe Dassualt aren't able to cater for this huge demand? God knows at this point but Parrikar isn't telling us the whole truth.

 

[Mysticbuddy]

Of course he doesn't, those that makes such absurd statements never do. The problem is the narrative that has been created against the Rafale and thus it is now PERCIEVED as the "uber expensive" platform that poor India cannot afford and if it goes for the purchase it will go bankrupt.

Sad to say but Dassualt has utterly lost the media/PR battle and has allowed itself to be misrepresented not just in India but on the global stage.

Well to be honest, if $220 million is not expensive then what is? F35 is doing the same role and more. I am not sure if this could be done or not but you guys should be doing f35. They are still cheaper than what French are offering and more input from IAF could certainly help. I don't need to sell it but just be smart enough to know the same. French would just want to sell it. I am not saying it bad but it's good for nothing when super hornets and f22 are doing bombing sorties and French just doing sorties.

You guys need a better air to ground aircraft and f35 should be the one.

 

[randomradio]

What are SAAB smoking?


+ it is interesting that it seems as though the Rafale MII isn't directly competing with SAAB/LM/Boeing and that it seems as if the Rafale MII is pretty much a certainty at this point. The more I look at it the more I think Parrikar is hell bent on a second MMRCA and that there will be 300-400 MMRCA in the IAF (Rafale and one other) the logic behind this just doesn't make sense to me though. 2/3 of the options on the table (Gripen and F-16) will kill the LCA and I can't see the same DM who brags about having saved the LCA taking such a call which just leaves the F-18 (along with the reasons stated above such as the Gripen being stupidly expensive for what it is) and that itself is a very costly and increasingly outdated peice of kit and if it is the ASH/"Silent" Hornet on the table it is an entirely unfunded type.


This is before we even talk about the IN's requirements.

Maybe Dassualt aren't able to cater for this huge demand? God knows at this point but Parrikar isn't telling us the whole truth.

People have already told you, including the IAF and Parrikar. India cannot afford 300+ Rafales for the IAF alone. So the original MMRCA is being split into many deals.

Right now, it's-
Case 1 : Success of LCA Mk1A
Rafale B/C = 90
Second MRCA = 90

Options = 100+

or

Case 2: Failure of LCA Mk1A
Rafale B/C = 90
Gripen E/F = 90
SH E/F = 90

Options = 150+

These numbers are pretty much a 2027 objective for the IAF. What happens in the future is completely unknown, especially in terms of squadron strength.

Dassault gets the bonus Rafale-M order from the navy.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Well to be honest, if $220 million is not expensive then what is? F35 is doing the same role and more. I am not sure if this could be done or not but you guys should be doing f35. They are still cheaper than what French are offering and more input from IAF could certainly help. I don't need to sell it but just be smart enough to know the same. French would just want to sell it. I am not saying it bad but it's good for nothing when super hornets and f22 are doing bombing sorties and French just doing sorties.

You guys need a better air to ground aircraft and f35 should be the one.

1) the F-35 is simply inferior to the Rafale in A2G missions
2) we have no idea how much the IAF will be paying for their Rafales at this point or how much the F-35 would be offered to the IAF at
3) the IAF could not customise their F-35s as much as they can and will customise their Rafales
4) the IAF doesn't need a THIRD 5th gen/VLO aircraft after the AMCA and FGFA
5) the F-35 would offer lower availability and higher life cycle costs via a vis the Rafale

People have already told you, including the IAF and Parrikar. India cannot afford 300+ Rafales for the IAF alone. So the original MMRCA is being split into many deals.

Right now, it's-
Case 1 : Success of LCA Mk1A
Rafale B/C = 90
Second MRCA = 90

Options = 100+
.

See this doesn't make any sense. If the LCA MK1A Is a success the MoD could order a aircraft (Gripen or F-18) that effectively kills off the LCA?

The MoD should commit to 300 LCA MK1A/2 from the outset and protect this vital project. What you are proposing imagines this GoI and DM are plotting to kill off the LCA project for the sake of foreign products.