Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Piper]

Excuse me? Nothing has changed. The Gripen and F-16 still have no chance and the F-18 has an outside chance but judging by how they acted a few months back I wouldn't place any bets on it getting into the IAF. As it stands Dassualt is the sole OEM to have entered into advanced talks for setting up a production line in India, everything else is propaganda and mindless speculation.

NO Chappie. infact you would be shocked to know what went on behind the scenes.

Indians tried their darnest to work something out but french obduracy and Indian bureaucracy made a hash of what was match made in heaven. Rafale is not getting the production line in India.

A great part of it is due to India having options, we came in and showed them how exactly India will gain. French simply couldn't match the package due to economics and the ancillary stuff.

The deal of this magnitude works out on many levels. Why did Modi and Doval visit USA? You would be a fool if you think it was for NSG which US was anyway supporting making the visit for this purpose redundant. Parikkar is a nuts and bolts guys, he is just following the directions from above.

Anyway the main imperative for India is now to close the kiddie deal with French so they can now move on to next level of which these jets are but a minuscule part.

AND an extra point to be noted by Indians - the offering by us is in no way inferior to Rafales. It is on the similar level capability wise and more importantly this deal is workable economics wise which the Rafale wasn't.

 

[randomradio]

Well to be honest, if $220 million is not expensive then what is? F35 is doing the same role and more. I am not sure if this could be done or not but you guys should be doing f35. They are still cheaper than what French are offering and more input from IAF could certainly help. I don't need to sell it but just be smart enough to know the same. French would just want to sell it. I am not saying it bad but it's good for nothing when super hornets and f22 are doing bombing sorties and French just doing sorties.

You guys need a better air to ground aircraft and f35 should be the one.

If you arguing for the F-35 instead of Rafales, then the F-35 stands no chance. Our requirement is for an air superiority fighter, especially one that can get into dog fights. And Rafale is rigged for the nuke strike role as well. The Rafale is cheaper than the F-35.

If you are arguing for the F-35 instead of the SH, F-16 or Gripen, then the F-35 is far more expensive as of now.

Personally, I can't see any way for the F-35 to get into the IAF. It is still in development and is still years away from combat operations.

 

[Piper]

If you arguing for the F-35 instead of Rafales, then the F-35 stands no chance. Our requirement is for an air superiority fighter, especially one that can get into dog fights. And Rafale is rigged for the nuke strike role as well. The Rafale is cheaper than the F-35.

If you are arguing for the F-35 instead of the SH, F-16 or Gripen, then the F-35 is far more expensive as of now.

Personally, I can't see any way for the F-35 to get into the IAF. It is still in development and is still years away from combat operations.

F-35 will enter into combat ops this year so forget about the developmental pains. Where are the other fifth gen offerings? Where is the famed Sukhoi Flankar plus, where is the copy from China, where are the Korean, Turkish, Japanese and Indian offerings? Some still born, some with still sucking their thumbs and some dying off pre-maturely.

As for french they have given up on jets all together. Do they even have a plan post rafales which is 20 year old product to say the least?

 

[Mysticbuddy]

1) the F-35 is simply inferior to the Rafale in A2G missions
2) we have no idea how much the IAF will be paying for their Rafales at this point or how much the F-35 would be offered to the IAF at
3) the IAF could not customise their F-35s as much as they can and will customise their Rafales
4) the IAF doesn't need a THIRD 5th gen/VLO aircraft after the AMCA and FGFA
5) the F-35 would offer lower availability and higher life cycle costs via a vis the Rafale


See this doesn't make any sense. If the LCA MK1A Is a success the MoD could order a aircraft (Gripen or F-18) that effectively kills off the LCA?

The MoD should commit to 300 LCA MK1A/2 from the outset and protect this vital project. What you are proposing imagines this GoI and DM are plotting to kill off the LCA project for the sake of foreign products.

I don't agree with respect to your conclusions.
1. How? Maneuvering is not a parameter for air to ground missions.

2. I already mentione the number for Dassault offer. They can't lower it for you since it's almost the same as that of Egypt or Qatar. IAF can only get planes from full rate production which are at 120-140 million per plane for non participating nations. To be frank, it's way hard to get anything till 2022.

3. You won't need to customize the same as its not inferior as that of rafale. Some customizations are offered.

4. Of which neither has seen the light of the day till date and won't be available till 2025 even the first flight is tomorrow.

5. For initial versions/iterations that might be true but not for the better ones as this will be evolving platform. Block 5 is said to full capable.

LCA is an internal matter for India and f35 is definitely not a replacement for that. IMHO you guys should work on that more than flirting with French. They can learn a tip or two from Bollywood. Just kidding!!!!

 

[randomradio]

See this doesn't make any sense. If the LCA MK1A Is a success the MoD could order a aircraft (Gripen or F-18) that effectively kills off the LCA?

Nothing can kill the LCA program, except itself.

The MoD should commit to 300 LCA MK1A/2 from the outset and protect this vital project. What you are proposing imagines this GoI and DM are plotting to kill off the LCA project for the sake of foreign products.

That would be a disaster because there is no time to wait and see. If the MoD commits to that many LCAs and it turns out the LCA is a dud, then there is no time to fix it. IAF will still be short of 300 aircraft even in 2027, an absolute disaster. You are talking about 1/3rd of the IAF at a time when our enemies will have more number of aircraft.

And because of this indecision, IAF will ask for more Rafales, and that will affect AMCA and FGFA, programs, which are far more critical than LCA.

Parrikar is going to make a few decisions over the next one year, and his decisions today will affect India's next 20 years.

Anyway, there is no difference between buying 120 or 300. All India needs is 5 squadrons to keep a program viable. Buying more than 120 is merely an operational decision by the IAF, meaning it won't make the LCA program any better if the numbers go up to 300. All it does is make HAL's pockets fatter, and that serves little purpose. Our money is better spent in the private industry.

 

[BON PLAN]

Of course I also happen to knw abt the F16 F35 costing as well as F18ASH new customized version

Not to speak about Astra integration for exemple.

 

[randomradio]

F-35 will enter into combat ops this year so forget about the developmental pains.

That's irrelevant to the IAF because IAF is looking at combat ops that the F-35 can handle only in 2024, not the IOC level ops that the F-35 won't be able to handle at least until 2018 with the Block 3F software that will allow it to fire the Aim-120.

Where are the other fifth gen offerings? Where is the famed Sukhoi Flankar plus, where is the copy from China, where are the Korean, Turkish, Japanese and Indian offerings? Some still born, some with still sucking their thumbs and some dying off pre-maturely.

IAF has a plan, and the F-35 is not part of it.

The PAK FA will soon be entering serial production. The final configuration prototype is expected to fly right about now.

As for french they have given up on jets all together. Do they even have a plan post rafales which is 20 year old product to say the least?

A French pilot on IDF says there will be two different aircraft. One is an air superiority UCAV, and the other will be built with the British called the FCAS.

Anyway, this may make a bigger dent in your opinion.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...tion-stealth-fighter-will-be-hypersonic-16528
A new hypersonic air superiority fighter.

 

[BON PLAN]

People have already told you, including the IAF and Parrikar. India cannot afford 300+ Rafales for the IAF alone. So the original MMRCA is being split into many deals.

Right now, it's-
Case 1 : Success of LCA Mk1A
Rafale B/C = 90
Second MRCA = 90

Options = 100+

or

Case 2: Failure of LCA Mk1A
Rafale B/C = 90
Gripen E/F = 90
SH E/F = 90

Options = 150+

These numbers are pretty much a 2027 objective for the IAF. What happens in the future is completely unknown, especially in terms of squadron strength.

Dassault gets the bonus Rafale-M order from the navy.

LCA Mk1A will not failed. And even if, it is of the first importance to keep alive this programm, to developp your skill. So it will be a great (political at least) success.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Two quick points

1. Rafale deal and MII is still on.. Simply bcz of the other things negotiated under the whole deal.
   • The Indian SSN program which now will be given more priority and p75I cancellation needs urgent tech help for noise reduction and lowering detection ability. It is true that design in mostly Indian, partially tech borrowed via Russian Consultancy and French DCNS.
   • Also more scorpene are cmg
   • AIP is also now DCNS as DRDO aip is stuck
   • The heavy water torpedo is again F21 for scorpenes as well as SSBN and in future SSNs as well
   • Many things more
2. USA will get certain deals surely. It's no secret that F16 price offerred is cheap as they wish to shift the line here. The F35 program is not now for India. As I have said earlier once LM finishes the Indian F16 order and Indian becomes the global MRO for F16s, the line gets upgraded for F35. It's true that LM has shown a presentation with price of flyaway less than $75 Mn down from $85Mn flyaway. But when we do add up the rest of the package details the cost is more than Rafales. Especially the post flying support and service costing part.

The consideration for USA jets will come bcz of a bigger bogie which you all know.

What India has wanted is instead of LM deal , they are keen for armed version of General Atomics aerial vehicles.

Now let's see how it fans out.

 

[randomradio]

Two quick points

1. Rafale deal and MII is still on.. Simply bcz of the other things negotiated under the whole deal.
   • The Indian SSN program which now will be given more priority and p75I cancellation needs urgent tech help for noise reduction and lowering detection ability. It is true that design in mostly Indian, partially tech borrowed via Russian Consultancy and French DCNS.
   • Also more scorpene are cmg
   • AIP is also now DCNS as DRDO aip is stuck
   • The heavy water torpedo is again F21 for scorpenes as well as SSBN and in future SSNs as well
   • Many things more
2. USA will get certain deals surely. It's no secret that F16 price offerred is cheap as they wish to shift the line here. The F35 program is not now for India. As I have said earlier once LM finishes the Indian F16 order and Indian becomes the global MRO for F16s, the line gets upgraded for F35. It's true that LM has shown a presentation with price of flyaway less than $75 Mn down from $85Mn flyaway. But when we do add up the rest of the package details the cost is more than Rafales. Especially the post flying support and service costing part.

The consideration for USA jets will come bcz of a bigger bogie which you all know.

What India has wanted is instead of LM deal , they are keen for armed version of General Atomics aerial vehicles.

Now let's see how it fans out.

People still have no clue how big the Rafale deal is.

 

[Mysticbuddy]

If you arguing for the F-35 instead of Rafales, then the F-35 stands no chance. Our requirement is for an air superiority fighter, especially one that can get into dog fights. And Rafale is rigged for the nuke strike role as well. The Rafale is cheaper than the F-35.

If you are arguing for the F-35 instead of the SH, F-16 or Gripen, then the F-35 is far more expensive as of now.

Personally, I can't see any way for the F-35 to get into the IAF. It is still in development and is still years away from combat operations.

Your basis of this comment is the underlying fact that an air superiority fighter was the requirement. I would prove it otherwise. Find the expanded version of MMRCA. Doesn't it mention multirole. Also if that was the role then eurofighter should be the choice.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

People still have no clue how big the Rafale deal is.

The reason being strategic things are still thought with respect to only two names - Russia and Israel. That's how common mass.perception is build. On top last five years of sustained propaganda painted France as the devilish side.

But with last few years and the progression of Indo French relation things are far more strategic in nature than what meets the eye of common people.

That is why we see so hard efforts to showcase as French side to be uncompromising and looting types. Yet in business everyone negotiates.. And India is paying every penny and extracting much more in return. It's just that most things are kept away from sensationalism.

 

[randomradio]

Your basis of this comment is the underlying fact that an air superiority fighter was the requirement. I would prove it otherwise. Find the expanded version of MMRCA. Doesn't it mention multirole. Also if that was the role then eurofighter should be the choice.

It has always been "a multirole fighter, but designed for air superiority". The FGFA is also called PMF or Perspective Multirole Fighter. Su-30MKI is also multirole.

Eurofighter was selected and then lost because it was more expensive than the Rafale.

The F-35 isn't multirole if you look at IAF definitions. It's a strike fighter.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Now let's see how it fans out.

Will the June deadline for Rafale be kept or will it be extended

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I second @randomradio
On this. f35 is a strike platform something which USA has been impressing India to incorporate in its doctrine instead of considering just usual light medium heavy differentiation.

In fact what they offerred was

• Light - tejas /F16
• Medium - existing fleet
• Heavy MKI /FGFA
• Strike -F35

That's the new category and the number suggested was 150.

Of course, DM Sat through and listened but he knows it won't cut much ice as of now so he just ignored it.