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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Official confirmation and perhaps indication of Hollande visit and rafale signing.

Le Rafale "se rapproche" de son premier contrat en Inde - Challenges.fr

The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India

The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, said Tuesday the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier.



14529818.jpg


The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, assured Tuesday, November 3 CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, receiving the prize of "Industrial of the Year" awarded by the magazine Usine Nouvelle.

"With the India, the most important word, is patience," said EricTrappier.

"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."

"I am quite optimistic on signing fast enough," he added, estimating that a fourth export contract for the Rafale could be earned next year.

"I think there will be a fourth contract that will materialize next year," he said, warning however that "nothing is as it is not signed." Eric Trappier received the award on the occasion of Audience Industry organized by the magazine.

The French fighter won two contracts this year, its first export sales, with 24 aircraft sold to Egypt earlier this year, and 24 in Qatar. Negotiations are underway since April between the French and Indian governments for the purchase of 36 Rafale.

(With AFP)

@SR-91 @Abingdonboy @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen

"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."

This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?
no matter what they say at the most if rafale makes the cut it wont be more than 4 squads period ... baki lagge raho :coffee:
 
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"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."

This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?

Sure it does.

Its a desperate HOPE build on greed that his company may get the opportunity to sell more planes if everything goes the way they want it too.

Kind of him to share his THOUGHT.

no matter what they say at the most if rafale makes the cut it wont be more than 4 squads period ... baki lagge raho :coffee:

For the moment its only 2 squads. Everything else is just mental masturbation.
 
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Sure it does.

Its a desperate HOPE build on greed that his company may get the opportunity to sell more planes if everything goes the way they want it too.

Kind of him to share his THOUGHT.



For the moment its only 2 squads. Everything else is just mental masturbation.
janab i was just answering the other person who things some 6 squads of rafale will join IAF well fact is 36=two squads are orderred now with a possibilty of repeating the same order rest all are just fancies point is MOD is not going to spend too much on rafales
 
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Official confirmation and perhaps indication of Hollande visit and rafale signing.

Le Rafale "se rapproche" de son premier contrat en Inde - Challenges.fr

The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India

The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, said Tuesday the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier.



14529818.jpg


The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, assured Tuesday, November 3 CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, receiving the prize of "Industrial of the Year" awarded by the magazine Usine Nouvelle.

"With the India, the most important word, is patience," said EricTrappier.

"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."

"I am quite optimistic on signing fast enough," he added, estimating that a fourth export contract for the Rafale could be earned next year.

"I think there will be a fourth contract that will materialize next year," he said, warning however that "nothing is as it is not signed." Eric Trappier received the award on the occasion of Audience Industry organized by the magazine.

The French fighter won two contracts this year, its first export sales, with 24 aircraft sold to Egypt earlier this year, and 24 in Qatar. Negotiations are underway since April between the French and Indian governments for the purchase of 36 Rafale.

(With AFP)

@SR-91 @Abingdonboy @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen

"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."

This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?

I'm so waiting for Jan 27. The day this Rafale saga ends. Writing is on the wall but these people can't see it.

@PARIKRAMA that was ONE of ur best explanation up there. I always enjoy reading ur posts. Thanks for writing a BOOK.:close_tema:
 
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no matter what they say at the most if rafale makes the cut it wont be more than 4 squads period ... baki lagge raho :coffee:
4 SQNs makes even less sense than 2 OR 6. There is some justification for believing 36 only because the PM had initiated this himself (but all he said was this number was to meet the immediate needs of the IAF and, as per an agreement with the French govt, would be delivered ASAP- did he say this was the final figure?) BUT 4 SQNs is an entirely arbitrary figure and when the ACM has officially stated the requirement for 6 SQNs of Rafales I don't see where 4 comes from.

For the moment its only 2 squads. Everything else is just mental masturbation.

Oh come on, 36 jets are NOT even for 2 SQNs (including war reserves). I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone who honestly buys this number as the final number seriously. The ONLY reason anyone is parroting this 36 figure is because of the exact wording the PM used some 6 months ago. Since then the ACM has categorically stated figures to the contrary AND Dassualt have made plans for far more to be sold in India INCLUDING some to be built in India. It is absolutely no secret that Dassualt have been holding talks with a number of Indian private entities in this regard and @PARIKRAMA has given his own experience on the financing of such an enterprise (this is not mere fiction).

Sure it does.

Its a desperate HOPE build on greed that his company may get the opportunity to sell more planes if everything goes the way they want it too.

Kind of him to share his THOUGHT
+ @GURU DUTT guys, pray tell me what the IAF is going to do to address the distinct paucity of strike aircraft in its inventory if you are sticking to the nonsensical (IMHO) 2 SQN figure as being final? And you are barred from using more LCA, MKI or FGFA (a paper plane to this day btw) as an option because NONE are long range strike aircraft even remotely as capable as the Rafale in this regard. Nor are you allowed to speculate about a second type of aircraft (F-18, F-16, Gripen, MiG-35, Gripen etc etc) being inducted for the exact same role as the Rafale to operate alongside it- this is just NEVER going to happen and can be ruled out entirely.


Let me paint the picture that will exist a decade from now (2025):

1) Jaguar DARIN IIIs will be in service but with limited utility outside of CAS with the emergence of sophisticated AD systems on both the India's troubled borders.
2) Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s (a true multi-role aircraft with significant strike capabilities but with a single engine and relatively small airframe is no long-range strike a/c) and MiG-29UPG will be entering the final stages of their lives (will be out of service in 2030)
3) The Air dominance "Super" Su-30MKIs number around 300
4) Around 150 (hopefully more with a parallel production line coming online in the near future) LCAs (Mk.1/Mk.1P/Mk.2) are in service
5) Best case scenario 2 SQNs of next generation air dominance FGFAs are in service but have only recently been inducted and perhaps their combat doctrine is not even established by TACDE as of yet.

By 2030 the situation is similar, numbers of the LCA and FGFA have changed (irrelevant in the strike context) but the Mirages are gone. Perhaps the AMCA (to be a replacement for the Jaguars and Mig-27s- so a strike fighter) is just entering service but at this point (2030) I doubt even 1 operational SQN of AMCA will exist- forget about being fully integrated into the combat doctrine of the IAF (TACDE's forte).

And, let me get this right, you guys are expecting the ENTIRE long range strike capability against two capable adversaries (oh and fighter-borne nuclear delivery duties) of the IAF (the 3rd largest AF in the world by then- charged with securing the skies of a $5TN USD economy (by 2025)) to consist of only 36-72 airframes (leave aside all the associated logistical/maintenance complications, and costs, associated with such a limited number)???

This is without stating the obvious such as the PLAAF would have taken and ENORMOUS step forward by then and the PAF won't have stood still either.


This is some truly unfathomable logic.

The 4.5++ Rafale with AESA, proven deep strike capabilities, a world class (perhaps unparalleled right now in the world and will certainly be in the region for over a decade) data fusion suite and a clear and well funded future growth road map is simply the way to go and in big numbers. The Rafale will compliment the MKI/FGFA and LCAs perfectly and will be truly lethal machines beyond at least 2035.

The more I look at it, the more I am thinking even 126-189 would be far too few (these were figures the IAF came up with in the mid 2000s, the threat matrix has changed significantly- for the worse) AND the FGFA's induction date has been pushed back to the point it is unclear when it will enter service but it certainly won't be before 2022.



@MilSpec @Koovie @SR-91 @anant_s @Aminroop
 
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4 SQNs makes even less sense than 2 OR 6. There is some justification for believing 36 only because the PM had initiated this himself (but all he said was this number was to meet the immediate needs of the IAF and, as per an agreement with the French govt, would be delivered ASAP- did he say this was the final figure?) BUT 4 SQNs is an entirely arbitrary figure and when the ACM has officially stated the requirement for 6 SQNs of Rafales I don't see where 4 comes from.



Oh come on, 36 jets are NOT even for 2 SQNs (including war reserves). I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone who honestly buys this number as the final number seriously. The ONLY reason anyone is parroting this 36 figure is because of the exact wording the PM used some 6 months ago. Since then the ACM has categorically stated figures to the contrary AND Dassualt have made plans for far more to be sold in India INCLUDING some to be built in India. It is absolutely no secret that Dassualt have been holding talks with a number of Indian private entities in this regard and @PARIKRAMA has given his own experience on the financing of such an enterprise (this is not mere fiction).


+ @GURU DUTT guys, pray tell me what the IAF is going to do to address the distinct paucity of strike aircraft in its inventory if you are sticking to the nonsensical (IMHO) 2 SQN figure as being final? And you are barred from using more LCA, MKI or FGFA (a paper plane to this day btw) as an option because NONE are long range strike aircraft even remotely as capable as the Rafale in this regard. Nor are you allowed to speculate about a second type of aircraft (F-18, F-16, Gripen, MiG-35, Gripen etc etc) being inducted for the exact same role as the Rafale to operate alongside it- this is just NEVER going to happen and can be ruled out entirely.


Let me paint the picture that will exist a decade from now (2025):

1) Jaguar DARIN IIIs will be in service but with limited utility outside of CAS with the emergence of sophisticated AD systems on both the India's troubled borders.
2) Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s (a true multi-role aircraft with significant strike capabilities but with a single engine and relatively small airframe is no long-range strike a/c) and MiG-29UPG will be entering the final stages of their lives (will be out of service in 2030)
3) The Air dominance "Super" Su-30MKIs number around 300
4) Around 150 (hopefully more with a parallel production line coming online in the near future) LCAs (Mk.1/Mk.1P/Mk.2) are in service
5) Best case scenario 2 SQNs of next generation air dominance FGFAs are in service but have only recently been inducted and perhaps their combat doctrine is not even established by TACDE as of yet.

By 2030 the situation is similar, numbers of the LCA and FGFA have changed (irrelevant in the strike context) but the Mirages are gone. Perhaps the AMCA (to be a replacement for the Jaguars and Mig-27s- so a strike fighter) is just entering service but at this point (2030) I doubt even 1 operational SQN of AMCA will exist- forget about being fully integrated into the combat doctrine of the IAF (TACDE's forte).

And, let me get this right, you guys are expecting the ENTIRE long range strike capability against two capable adversaries (oh and fighter-borne nuclear delivery duties) of the IAF (the 3rd largest AF in the world by then- charged with securing the skies of a $5TN USD economy (by 2025)) to consist of only 36-72 airframes (leave aside all the associated logistical/maintenance complications, and costs, associated with such a limited number)???

This is without stating the obvious such as the PLAAF would have taken and ENORMOUS step forward by then and the PAF won't have stood still either.


This is some truly unfathomable logic.

The 4.5++ Rafale with AESA, proven deep strike capabilities, a world class (perhaps unparalleled right now in the world and will certainly be in the region for over a decade) data fusion suite and a clear and well funded future growth road map is simply the way to go and in big numbers. The Rafale will compliment the MKI/FGFA and LCAs perfectly and will be truly lethal machines beyond at least 2035.

The more I look at it, the more I am thinking even 126-189 would be far too few (these were figures the IAF came up with in the mid 2000s, the threat matrix has changed significantly- for the worse) AND the FGFA's induction date has been pushed back to the point it is unclear when it will enter service but it certainly won't be before 2022.



@MilSpec @Koovie @SR-91 @anant_s @Aminroop
Dassault is trying to tie up with a private player to set up for a possible manufacturing line and that tells the figure of 36 is an Ad hoc figure and certainly the requirement is far more.
another thing, you mentioned about difference of roles. LCA wil be a point defence fighter and given that the new fighter will have to cater to replacement of entire Mikoyan Gurevich series by 2030, the number certainly is higher than 36.
As for FGFA, just my HO but i think final numbers in IAF inventory will depend largely on J 31 and its ppossible sale to Pakistan.
150 or more Rafales are possibly minimum requirement.
 
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How much will it cost approximately ?

For the whole deal.

To be fair, we must know the life cycle costs and compare it with sukhoi to know how expensive or cheap these birds are.

Bringing reliance into it , will cost more than giving it to HAL ( my gut feeling )
 
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Official confirmation and perhaps indication of Hollande visit and rafale signing.

Le Rafale "se rapproche" de son premier contrat en Inde - Challenges.fr

The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India

The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, said Tuesday the CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier.



14529818.jpg


The Rafale "is approaching" its first contract in India, assured Tuesday, November 3 CEO of Dassault Aviation, Eric Trappier, receiving the prize of "Industrial of the Year" awarded by the magazine Usine Nouvelle.

"With the India, the most important word, is patience," said EricTrappier.

"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."

"I am quite optimistic on signing fast enough," he added, estimating that a fourth export contract for the Rafale could be earned next year.

"I think there will be a fourth contract that will materialize next year," he said, warning however that "nothing is as it is not signed." Eric Trappier received the award on the occasion of Audience Industry organized by the magazine.

The French fighter won two contracts this year, its first export sales, with 24 aircraft sold to Egypt earlier this year, and 24 in Qatar. Negotiations are underway since April between the French and Indian governments for the purchase of 36 Rafale.

(With AFP)

@SR-91 @Abingdonboy @Dash @Star Wars @Stephen Cohen

"I think we approach the goal with a first contract for 36 aircraft. It will lead certainly to others later."

This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?

It does, but I am not hopeful much. Good if it happens though.
 
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Bringing reliance into it , will cost more than giving it to HAL ( my gut feeling )
i think the idea here is parallel production.
Su 30 MKI program will wrap up by 2018-19 (provided no new orders) and then LCA and FGFA should enter production. Accommodating Rafale could be difficult here and perhaps thats why we need a private contractor.
Even with submarine projects in next decade government is keen to rope in private shipyards which again leads to capacity creation without capital budget.
In it looks a really far reaching decision for future.
In true sense if Make in India program is approached and implemented properly, we will not only see speedy delivery of product but also huge generation of jobs and encouragement to entrepreneurs.
 
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i think the idea here is parallel production.
Su 30 MKI program will wrap up by 2018-19 (provided no new orders) and then LCA and FGFA should enter production. Accommodating Rafale could be difficult here and perhaps thats why we need a private contractor.
Even with submarine projects in next decade government is keen to rope in private shipyards which again leads to capacity creation without capital budget.
In it looks a really far reaching decision for future.
In true sense if Make in India program is approached and implemented properly, we will not only see speedy delivery of product but also huge generation of jobs and encouragement to entrepreneurs.

Parallel production speeds up,
but reliance have to start from scratch that will take time
They will do only for profit, will arm twist for larger margins that again will cost more

For eg 200million $ a bird from dassault -> 250 million $ from HAL -> 300 million from reliance

Now how fast are we going to procure from reliance to shell out the extra money.

Instead we can outsource LCA to reliable private player ( here we can choose private player unlike rafale where dassault will choose it).
 
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I have to hand it to Modi, it appears he has managed to MASSIVELY turn around the fortunes of the IAF's fighter fleet in just over a year
It also appears he did it by doing something impossible when two Indians or more are involved :
taking decisions!
:pop:

This statement means a 100 words.. is nt it?
Especially if you read it carefully : its first contract in India
I won't have the gall to teach maths to Indians but first implies more.
:pop:

The more I look at it, the more I am thinking even 126-189 would be far too few
Answered below before I got to it :
150 or more Rafales are possibly minimum requirement.
:pop:

They will do only for profit, will arm twist for larger margins that again will cost more

For eg 200million $ a bird from dassault -> 250 million $ from HAL -> 300 million from reliance
Not at all, here's why!

Dassault clears a profit at 200M$. They'll teach Reliance to do so easily exactly due to greed.
As soon as Reliance operates the plant as well as Dassault does, they make as much money!

Doesn't that take money out of Dassault's pocket which it won't agree to? - you may ask.
Yes but then again that's your 50% offset right there . . . and . . .
the money will be made back on the numbers going up from 36 to …
Integration of Indian weapons for example that some clear minds pointed out as only coherent with a bigger buy
is money that almost reverses back 100% to Dassault. Voilà, even steven!

Good day all, Tay.

P.S. Congrats Parik, you got my first on account of my fondness for coherent thinking!
 
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Oh come on, 36 jets are NOT even for 2 SQNs (including war reserves). I'm sorry, but I can't take anyone who honestly buys this number as the final number seriously. The ONLY reason anyone is parroting this 36 figure is because of the exact wording the PM used some 6 months ago. Since then the ACM has categorically stated figures to the contrary AND Dassualt have made plans for far more to be sold in India INCLUDING some to be built in India. It is absolutely no secret that Dassualt have been holding talks with a number of Indian private entities in this regard and @PARIKRAMA has given his own experience on the financing of such an enterprise (this is not mere fiction).

I am not interested in your OPINIONS or desires. Same goes to the "opinions" of other armchair experts.

If you have any RECENT link that says more than 36 will be purchased, post it. or else keep your peace.
 
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I am not interested in your OPINIONS or desires. Same goes to the "opinions" of other armchair experts.
- Then what the heck are you doing on a forum??? o_O

If you have any RECENT link that says more than 36 will be purchased, post it. or else keep your peace.
- He could very reasonably ask the same of you!

There, fixed that for you my young friend.
Keep calm and have a great day, Tay.
 
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There, fixed that for you my young friend.
Keep calm and have a great day, Tay.

Seeking facts and opinion based on facts supported by links.

Your unsolicited help is very generous ...... almost as generous as your offer to sell us Rafale :P
 
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^^^
Yeah, I deplore the absence of links in general too but it happens over long convos that the links are
there albeit a few pages back.

And I swear to you that I am not personally going to make money out of that deal.
. . . of course if Dassault wants to send me a Rafale watch or flight jacket or model even, I'll accept it! :tongue:

Read you later, Tay.
 
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