Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[Storm Force]

Parrikar is working on speeding up Fgfa.

And. dropping rafale. Over cost issues.

Surprise surprise

Exactly what this storm force guy has been suggesting will happen for the last 17 months.

Storm force at least you understsnd the ground reality of opportunity cost

 

[Abingdonboy]

Parrikar is working on speeding up Fgfa.

And. dropping rafale. Over cost issues.

Surprise surprise

Exactly what this storm force guy has been suggesting will happen for the last 17 months.

Storm force at least you understsnd the ground reality of opportunity cost

Utter nonsense.

The FGFA deal is STILL not signed, Parrikar can say all he likes "speed up FGFA", "MKI is a suitable replacment for the Rafale" it doesn't make it true.

 

[Storm Force]

Abingdon

You stil beating the rafale drum.

Which part of we don't have $22 billion spare to buy this MMRCA don't you understand

Please spare me the usual india will spend 600 billion between 2015 -2025 nonsense

India is not China or USA we don't have this cash spare.

THIS IS WHY IAF STYIL FLYS 200 MIG21s

 

[Abingdonboy]

Which part of we don't have $22 billion spare to buy this MMRCA don't you understand

The deal isn't worth $22 billion and only 15% of this deal will be paid upfront so $2.2-2.7 billion depending on what figure you look at, when the deal is signed money will be made available:

However, the defence ministry had told the parliamentary standing committee in late 2014 that when the MMRCA is contracted, additional funds would be made available.

FM gives armed forces less than asked for | The Financial Express

Money is NOT the issue and never has been, has Parrikar or any other offical publically stated this was the issue? NO. Parrikar has explictly stated numerous times that the issue is to do with the OEM sticking to the clauses within the orginal RFP, specifically the liability clauses.

What part of that don't you understand?

Please spare me the usual india will spend 600 billion between 2015 -2025 nonsense

It is between 2014-2022 and this is a FACT so how is it nonsense?

India is not China or USA we don't have this cash spare.

India is entering into a new phase of high growth, by 2022 India will have a $3TN USD economy so this is a silly argument. Not everyone has to be the US or China to have money to spend on the military.

THIS IS WHY IAF STYIL FLYS 200 MIG21s

No, this is not why the IAF still flies MiG-21s. They still fly the MiG-21s because the GoI got scuppered the IAF's orginal move to order 126-200 Mirage 2000s in the early 2000s and convert the MRCA into the MMRCA contest and the saga began....

 

[SQ8]

Money is NOT the issue and never has been, has Parrikar or any other offical publically stated this was the issue? NO. Parrikar has explictly stated numerous times that the issue is to do with the OEM sticking to the clauses within the orginal RFP, specifically the liability clauses..

Well, hopefully this gets sortied out sooner rather than later; lives of IAF pilots and a serious capability depends upon it. Think of the earlier Burma scenario I posted with the Tejas..
HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions | Page 670
What follows is entirely fictional and continues on the theme in the link


Arrawady Bridge, Burma. September 29th, 2020, 0930 hrs local time:
Integrated Battle Group East , Operation "Tēj rakṣhak" तेज रक्षक.

The initial push for Tez Rakshak had been successfull and Ramree Island now served as both Operational Base for IBG east and staging area for further incursions into Burmese territory to form protectorates for Rohingya refugees. Whilst airborne operations were limited to a few Mi-17s staged in the area, certain interdiction by a surprisingly resurgent Myanmar Air Force had forced the quick airlifting of a Rajendra radar via Mi-26 which was joined by a Akash battery brought in by the IN Landing ships. The Vikramaditya was on standby with its aircraft and the INS Shivalik stationed close to the shore to provide additional support, but so far the IAF had been pulling the strings within the Ministry of Defence to ensure that all the Navy was left to do was fly sight seeing tours of the Burmese coast and provide "rear guard" against a fictitious Bangladeshi threat; who really were quite happy with the idea of one potential threat being quashed by another and could not care less for even technical airspace violations by the IAF.

The initial objectives outlined by the Indian Government covered only the protection of the Rohingya refugees which was supposed to be more of a flexing of muscles which it was hoped would cause the Myanmar Military to back down in concert with the efforts in the United Nations to give mandate to the Indian intervention and replace it with a UN peacekeeping force. It was also hoped that this would mean a quick withdrawal of Indian forces apart from a token presence; but things rarely go according to plan. The Chinese had not taken this incursion into their ally lightly and it seemed that the flexing of muscles was heading into a full muscle man showoff competition. At the UN the Chinese were using their permanent veto to block any resolution on the UN force whilst simultaneously pouring in Arms aid to the Burmese. Whilst NAMICAs were supposed to be airlifted to the front and T-72Ms were loaded on the eastern ports. The Air Force had promised to have AH-64s in the area by this time yet so far the IBG commander was only frustrated by the lack of actual deployment versus what was planned.

The intervention which was also supposed to be a positive statement to the Indian people as a demonstration of their nation's new power and influence was losing support back home thanks to a no holds barred assault within the media and political front. There were also disgruntled voices within the command itself, after all the Rohingya were a militant Islamic group which were more and more influenced by ISIS; something which did not sit well with the idea of Indian troops protecting their save havens.

However, the greater pressing issue was the Myanmar military's aggressive posturing which was making everyone from New Dehli and Kolgata down to those sitting in Ramree Island rather nervous. Their fears however, came true when intelligence indicated a large Burmese thrust planning to cross the Arrawady river and head straight for the refugee camps at Minbu , Saku and eventually Datkon. Having not anticipated such a resurgent Burmese threat after 10 days of generally benign operations the Command IBG east found themselves with only a few companies from 21st infantry facing off with some 36 Type 69 Tanks backed by an entire Infantry Division. Whilst hasty plans were made to use existing BTR-80 APCs as a defence line and the troops dug in, A formation of Saraths was hastily rushed towards the front to reinforce the line and perhaps stall the Burmese Advance.

However, without the IAF this was looking to be a certain slaughter unless the Indian forces retreated, but that also meant leaving the Rohingyas to the mercy of the Burmese Army.


A quick Close air Support mission was called up, and it fell on the shoulders of the newly raised 221sq "Valiants" who had taken on Rafale-IN F4s. Having only recently received their new CFTs they had not had the time to work up on its quirks but the panicked call from the IBG HQ made that matter little. The plan for support was drawn up by a rather smart but overly ambitious group captain who was liaising at Ramree HQ, but it was simple and effective. An earlier recon flight by a Searcher UAV had met with its demise via a modernizaed Sa-2 battery that had been erected at what was thought a defunct site. Which led to the Kalaikunda based Tejas squadron being assigned to a SEAD strike preceding the CAS sortie by a few minutes.
The plan was simple, the Rafale flight was to perform close air support on now identified positions of the Burmese strike force by CARTOSAT-3. The Su-30 squadron was to provide top cover in case the Burmese Air Force tried something.. it was only recently that the presence of recently delivered JF-17s was disclosed but so far it was not thought that these were an operational threat as Burmese pilots were still working up on the type and as their most precious asset might not commit to an overwhelming fight against Indian air power.

Time on Target was set at 1000 hours.

As morning rolling in, the hazy weather had little impression on the pilots of "Paycheck" flight.

They knew their job, their aircraft.. they should; they were the best of the IAF selected to fly their latest type..rumours were that every other pilot outside of their squadron coveted their job save for those working with the FGFA team in Russia.
Their SEAD escort had already taken off and was on their way to make good on their ToT of 0955

As they lifted off the runway, both they and IBG command east was confident that the day would be saved without any trouble

Plans however, dont always go as written down. What was not known to neither the pilots nor planners was that the Myanmar Army had quietly positioned further Sa-6 batteries to provide cover for their movement earlier, in addition they also had 2S6 Tungskas providing cover. But things went much worse after that, as the Tejas flight was to find out

 

[SQ8]

As they approached their target, The Tejas SEAD mission found itself being targeted by nothing less than 3 SAM sites; this they had prepared for and were about to focus on the attack. There were reports of a Burmese A-5 flight in the area carrying out strikes but the Su-30s coming in a few minutes later were vectored onto it.. and were making quick carcasses of the Fantans.
The Rafale flight followed in a minute behind.

However, before they had a chance to shut out the sirens of a radar lock by a SA-6.. the lead Tejas found itself locked up by an air intercept radar...and worse.. an active missile seeker. Making a mad break he hit the Emergency jettison but by the time he had moved a few hundred meters it was too late. Skimming the tree tops waiting for an ambush was a rather deadly foe.

In full view of his flight, the lead aircraft disappeared in a ball of flame; perhaps it was a combination of bad intel, and his own double edged prudence of having his jammer at full power. But as much was clear that the SD-10 found its mark, guided in silently by the Tejas's own jammer.. whose means of protection turned out to be its doom.

His wingman had not much luck either, and found to his own end that the SD-10 loves electronic emissions just as much as it does radar targets.

By this time, Panicked calls of the second Tejas flight were all over the radio.. they were facing not two but four JF-17s. Their savoir however, was not the Su-30 top cover(which had been pulled away by the A-5 flight) but the flight that they were protecting. In his cockpit the lead Rafale already had the air picture sorted for him, even with friendly and enemy targets mixed up.. the Rafale had sorted and presented the target picture. His Weapons system operator in the back seat had locked onto two JF-17s.. and all he had to do was press the trigger.

The second Tejas section was manoeuvring evasively, but help was on the way.

 

[SQ8]

The MICA(R)-NG was the deadliest weapon in the IAF's arsenal in the opinion of its operators. Almost immune to anything save a countermeasures fluke and manoeuvrable enough to outturn any aircraft. They leapt from the Rafale's rails and were locked onto the JF-17 flight attacking the remaining Tejas group. The first missile met its mark like a homesick puppy.

The second missile missile met its mark just as the JF-17 fired a PL-5E-II at the third Tejas.

The second and third missiles also closed in onto their quarry.

As the entire JF-17 flight descended in flames, it took the third Tejas with them as the PL-5 had also made its kill...Leaving only number 4 of the Kalaikunda natives to straggle home.

There was no time however to dwell on what was, and the Rafale flight quickly got to work. The coordinates for the Main Myanmar thrust movement were already within the APACHE's system and its going of the rails were merely a formality.

#
Although generally a stand off weapon, it was opted to release it closer as to ensure that accurate ID of the troops movement was made before unleashing the following.

With the Myanmar armour halted in its tracks through the sheer shock of the destruction rained upon them, their SAM support blown to smithereens as its soft skin was no match for anti-tank submunitions, it was time to use the AASMs and turn the Burmese troops around.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Wow; @Oscar......keep it coming!!!!!

 

[DrSomnath999]

@Oscar

impressive stuff But buddy dont you think this scenario would have been more realistic if burma had been replaced by
pakistan.
Ok i can understand why you have stated Burma instead of pakistan

for readers SD 10A is known to have HOJ feature i can post the source for that also
so someone doubting how SD10a get a lock on tejas & destroyed it .
it can be also possible .
Jamming is a double edge sword it can save you from a missile & can get yourself killed by HOJ mode BVRAAM missile

Both LCA & rafale currently have on board jamming system

question JINGOs would ask ??

Q-Is the author nuts or is paid by dassault group to write this article??
as how the heck rafale could save his A$$ from SD 10A & meanwhile LCA couldnt as both are having on board jamming????

ANS
Spectra's active jamming subsystem uses phased-array antennas located at the roots of the canards. Dassault has stated that the EW transmit antennas can produce a pencil beam compatible with the accuracy of the receiver system, concentrating power on the threat while minimizing the chances of detection.

meanwhile in future if we take 2020 timeframe by that time rafale would have installed expendable RF decoys project LEA

which would give off board jamming capabilty to rafale which would help rafale to dodge HOJ missiles with ease in comparision to on board jamming systems
Rafale News: Rafale developement, TRAGEDAC and LEA

CHEERS

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Webmaster Chasse ‏@WebChasse Mar 20
Glorious peel-off. A six-ship #rafale formation from #ec191gascogne arrives home after a BFM / BVR dogfight.

Escadron de chasse 01.091 "Gascogne"

 

[SQ8]

as how the heck rafale could save his A$$ from SD 10A & meanwhile LCA couldnt as both are having on board jamming????

A simpler answer was the JF-17 flights focus on the Tejas group as Burma has much lesser GCI coverage and guidance. Again, the sim takes all into account.. and I've programmed it so that the Tejas has a much more powerful dual-mode jammer than the JF-17 on board. However, electronic emissions are all the same. This scenario had to be played out two to three times to get this storyboard result. The first time the Rafale's were bounced by a F-7 interceptor flight also in the area flying around 500 feet and while they managed to evade that my wingman fell prey to multiple Sa-6 and Sa-18 shots. The JF-17 chewed through the Tejas group before the Su-30s arrived which took down the entire JF-17 group for the loss of one of their own.

The second time the lead Tejas was successful in evading the SD-10 shot because the Su-30 flight picked up the JF-17s and sent a general warning. However , the other three Tejas's still went down.. two to SD-10s and the other to a Tungska ambush. I took out two JF-17s and then went up in a dogfight with the other two. My wingman got one but was trapped by another AAA barrage and got blown up. It became a very tight turning fight with the JF-17 and pretty difficult with SAMs also targeting me. Eventually the JF-17 broke off to fire his SD-10 off at the closing Su-30 flight before he was taken out by a Astra mk-2.

And while this sim is not Lock on realistic in terms of exact avionics simulation, its accurate enough to see how things might play out around 50-70%..

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The LCA Tejas is good enough to fight and win against its rivals on its own

 

[SQ8]

 

[illusion8]

Superb.. @Oscar

 

[SQ8]

Superb.. @Oscar

If popular demand is persisting, Ill continue.. Although I do not wish to derail the thread.. the idea was to cheer up folks getting tired of the uncertainty and delays in the contract itself.

Namsang Airbase, Burma. October 1st, 2020, 0130 hrs local time:
Integrated Battle Group East , Operation "Tēj rakṣhak" तेज रक्षक.

The Myanmar military was fighting back, and the losses incurred by the Kalaikunda based Tejas squadron had left a dent in the morale of those at the base and within IAF Eastern command. This was especially odd considering that otherwise the IAF was still able to maintain a 85% success rate for its taskings and had managed to air lift some 3000 troops within a week into the AO( Area of Operations), helped insert a Combined Para/MARCOS team behind Burmese lines for providing "guerilla" support and continued to provide round the clock air cover for the entire deployment. But it was not its performance save the recent fiasco that had dented its Morale; The Chinese were now aggressively supplying the Myanmar military with hardware,providing logistic support and as radio intercepts heard in Chinese showed that just hardware was not the only thing the Chinese were providing. At the UN the Chinese were racketing up diplomatic support and attacking India at the UN for "unilateral" intervention under the intention of invading Burma for natural resources. So much so that while India was in a state of war with Burma, it was forced to mask its actions under a defensive umbrella to avoid the now stern stares even its ASEAN allies were giving it on the sidelines of the General assembly. For once, Indian intervention had actually helped democratic ideals within the Junta state as Ann-Sung Kyi was regularly seen being briefed by the Military on day to day activities of the Burmese military.

This frustrating situation was only made worse by the damning the Indian military was receiving from certain liberal media outlets, and the loss of three pilots along with a 100 other various personnel(only recently a Dhruv and Mi-17 were lost to an Ambush by pro-Burma "Rebels" using QW-1 SAMs) made even the more nationalistic media question the need for sacrificing Indian lives.. and made justifying the intervention difficult for Prime Minister Doval who lacked the charisma and general public affection of his erstwhile assassinated predecessor.

For the leadership at Ramree Island HQ, the options were clear; either they deal a decisive shock and awe blow to the Myanmar military, or face the possibility of an overly extended conflict. In light of this, a plan to attack the key Burmese airbase at Namsang which now housed the bulk of their F-7 and JF-17 fleet was planned. While the area was considered heavily defended by SAM and both radar and standard AAA units, it was decided that 6 Rafale's of two flights each carrying the SBU-64 2000 pound stand off weapon and attacking key targets on the airfield such as the Runway, Control tower and Air craft shelters would send enough of a message to the Myanmar military that they would call for a ceasefire.

These would be supported by Su-30's providing SEAD cover; having taken over that mantle from the Tejas flight as they could carry more ordnance and also provide effective jamming via the recently inducted TATA/ELBIT Virava ECM pods. Air cover for this mission was tasked to the Kalaikunda Tejas squadron with the theme being their chance to exact revenge from the Myanmar air force but the reality was much different; the Su-30MKIs were barely managing a 65% sortie rate while the Tejas had managed an impressive 85% availability. In addition, the IAF had taken a page out of desert storm and was to use its AH-64Es to attack two Burmese EW radar sites from its staging area on Ramree Island.
The arrival of a Phalcon in the AO would help provide crucial airspace coverage that was deemed the cause for the previous missions losses. The aircraft would rendezvous with a refueller off the Burmese coast from where the entire package was to arrive with a ToT of 0120 hours.

The Rafale flight began its roll somewhere around midnight, and to its pilots their confidence in their machine and their own abilities was not misplaced. One flight ditched the CFTs in favour of fatter fuel tanks as it was anticipated that in case an aerial engagement occurred this flight would be responsible for protecting the others.
As the night sky lit up with the glow of Afterburners, at the edge of the airfield onlookers watched them roll past.. among them were those with Asian features..but as India has a population of such folk in the northeast, suspicions were kept low to avoid a domestic ethnic dispute in this already delicate situation; this suited certain elements within the crowd.. who quietly keyed in messages over secure satphones to their handlers in Beijing.

They were soon to be joined by Su-30MKIs of Zebra flight, armed with KH-31s to attack Burmese Radars from a distance.. and rocket pods to attack key SAM and AAA positions along the route. The former kept them out of danger,whilst the latter was a death wish not many pilots would like to take. Ideally they would have preferred the stand off comfort of CBU-105s..but the night sky made any certain identification of Burmese assets impossible and only on the spot intelligence from previously inserted Intel teams could provide cues to what the Myanmar military had planned.

The Phalcon had taken up its station, escorted by Mig-29Ks of the Indian Navy. So far all it could see in the area was the familiar slow crawl of Indian Army Dhruvs flying their Patrols.. and a certain contingent that had just lifted off Ramree Island.

The Tejas flight joined up, looking to repair its wounds