Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[sancho]

If we start negotiating with EF in mid 2015, then you are looking at closing negotiations in mid 2016. And then delivery of the squadrons gets even more delayed and closer to an optimistic LCA Mk2 deadline.

Not necessarily, it just depends on how you would go on with the EF order. If the IAF is ok with taking EF T3As as a stop gap, you can buy 2 or even more squads in a government to government sale, before a single LCA MK2 would role out. What needs more time is the industrial part of the licence production, where the EF vendors need to find appropriate Indian partners to divert production parts. Dassault needed 2 years to comply to this part of the tender, but given the available relations of BAE, Airbus, Rolls Royce..., with the Indian industry, it don't have to take as long too.

 

[Hindustani78]

It was more a good will visit to the Czech counterparts and not for the fighter since they have only Gripen C/Ds and the Gripen was rejected from the M-MRCA.

There was one article on business standard
October 30 2014
Brazil chooses Gripen over Rafale | Business Standard News


Indian Navy's need for the Sea Gripen for two carriers that Cochin Shipyard is building - the 40,000-tonne INS Vikrant and a larger, yet unnamed, successor referred to as the Future Indigenous Carrier.

The DRDO was also hoping to learn from Saab's maintenance philosophy, which has made the Gripen the world's most easy-to-maintain fighter. According to independent estimations, the Gripen requires three to five man-hours of maintenance per flight hour. That means, after an hour-long mission, 6-10 technicians require only 30 minutes to put the fighter back in the air.

 

[sancho]

There was one article on business standard
October 30 2014

Author Ajay Shukla, that's enough in most of the cases to realize the value of the article. IN has no interest in the Sea Gripen, they didn't even sent the RFI for naval M-MRCAs to Saab, which is telling enough.
DRDO has shown interest in Saab, but far too late and without any logical sense. The chose Dassault for minor design consultancy, wanted LM to consult on navalising, ended up with Airbus and now wants Saab to consult on MK2, which once again only shows how poor DRDO's management skills are.

 

[Hulk]

Exactly, just as a threat to canel the whole tender, but that's a cheap threat, since everybody knows that IAF will never go for more MKIs to make itself more dependent on Russia, nor that IAF want more heavy class fighters, with 200+ FGFA on the list anyway. So that's a a pretty silly bluff and the only chance to actually put pressure on Dassault is the EF.



I never said that India will be excluded, but that Dassault is focusing only on French requirements and not on joint requirements and seeing us as a partner. They might offer us joint production of parts developed mainly for the French forces, but does that help our requirements? We probably will see a more customized Rafale for India, based on the upgrades Dassault develops for France.

@sancho I think we should seriously look at alternatives in case this does not work out. For the first time, I am not 100% confident. I think we should start discussion with EF or Grippen, what do you say? We should explore at-least one more deal in parallel, like discussing the offset clause. That way we can get a replacement sooner.

Not an empty threat or, cheap trick. This is being seriously considered as Russians have offered a very good deal. IAF is most probably on board. France has really not understood the difference in approach of new govt. If accepted, it will result in faster induction of much cheaper planes. EF is out.



Exactly... We are excluded for Now. They "might" sell us the whole Production line for Rafale in future. "Might" is the key word here and when dealing with France, this "might" becomes even more important. I would rather not trust their empty promises. Their record is rather dismal and leaves a lot to be desired.

What is the sweet deal?

 

[sancho]

@sancho I think we should seriously look at alternatives in case this does not work out. For the first time, I am not 100% confident. I think we should start discussion with EF or Grippen, what do you say? We should explore at-least one more deal in parallel, like discussing the offset clause. That way we can get a replacement sooner.

Well my confidence level on Dassault is constantly reducing since 2012, since they didn't aimed on getting the most out for the fighter, but mainly at benefits for them as a company. We can't blame them for negotiating with their best interest in mind, that's business, but "their" best interest was not the best interest for the fighter!
The alternative to Rafale remains to be the EF, since it was selected as the L2 and therefor as the 2nd option for negotiations, while Rafale was the "prefered" option. If the L1 doesn't offer what we wanted, logic tells us to talk to the L2 and as I explained in post #31, the EF is actually the fastes option to counter ruduction of squad numbers, if we are ok with T3A's and more fighters from European production lines. The only problem with EF is the high costs, which even if reduced after the election, should be still higher than the Rafale.
Gripen is out of question since it's under development only and performance specs as well as costs keep changing till the final production version will be available.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho

The Rafale Contract Document has already reached 15000 Pages

It is said that 90 % issues have been agreed to

Now if we go to Eurofighter ;we will have to EXPLAIN to them what France had agreed to
and what we want

Do you think that Eurofighter Consortium will accept all our demands quickly
without wasting time

It will take ANOTHER Three years to convince them

Hence SUKHOI is the Only Option

And you know what MOST of the officials who are negotiating with France
will simply REFUSE to undergo such a torturous exercise again

How will this massive waste of time ENHANCE some body's career
They are also career minded people

Then we will have to form another team ; those officials will start
afresh from the beginning ; IT will be a never ending delay

 

[SQ8]

The problem arises in not having a time frame to close negotiations. Had this been the case, we would have initiated talks with the EF consortium. The danger arising now, as you pointed out, is of time. If we start negotiating with EF in mid 2015, then you are looking at closing negotiations in mid 2016. And then delivery of the squadrons gets even more delayed and closer to an optimistic LCA Mk2 deadline.

Hence the more realistic timeframe for the M2K purchase. The biggest advantage is the savings for trainings and logistics both in cost and time.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

And what happens if the party whose responsibility it is has a problem? They end up paying.. hence costs.

First let Dassault accept the responsibility and workshare agreement
IN principle ; only then they might ask for an additional price

 

[sancho]

@sancho

The Rafale Contract Document has already reached 15000 Pages

It is said that 90 % issues have been agreed to

Now if we go to Eurofighter ;we will have to EXPLAIN to them what France had agreed to
and what we want

It doesn't matter what contracts Dassault has made so far, all that counts is, if they can comply to our demands, if they don't we can simply move to the EF consortium and talk to them. In fact, in this case we don't even have to start proper negotiations, but a simple inquiry how they see the liability issue and how they would comply to that demand would be enough to see if we want to put the negotiations with Dassault on hold.

Do you think that Eurofighter Consortium will accept all our demands quickly
without wasting time

We only can find that out if we talk to them right?

Hence the more realistic timeframe for the M2K purchase. The biggest advantage is the savings for trainings and logistics both in cost and time.

That's not possible and is not even faster, simply by the fact that those M2Ks would need replacements first, before any of the countries would sell them to us. The UAE has no interest to sell their M2Ks, because they are very happy with them, they even keep upgrading them nearly every year. Qatar will need to select a new fighter and only when delivery of that starts, they will sell off their M2K-5s, the French once are old and with the reduction of Rafale orders, they want to keep their M2K-5s too. You can even add the fact that we would have to negotiate with 3 different customers to get the fighters, most of them would need upgrades to extend their life and get them to the technical level IAF upgrade their M2K too...
M2Ks was a choice in the early 2000s, but from the switch to M-MRCA that option is not possible anymore.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@sancho

When the winner of Eurofighter / Rafale contest was declared it was
Said that India would be ENTERING into Exclusive negotiations with only ONE Party
at a time

All negotiations are held in good faith ; we would be violating our own undertaking
by talking in parallel to both of them

And practically too it is not useful
Why will ONE side agree to something if the other is reluctant

Both can refuse our CONDITIONS simultaneously or show dis interest

Where does that leave us ; we will be running around in circles

That is why we are trying our best to get the BEST out of one party atleast

 

[JanjaWeed]

India mulls switching from Rafale to Su30MKIs

The Indian Air Force is planning to field over 270 Su-30MKI fighters in 14 squadrons.​

For the first time since January 31, 2012, when the French Rafale fighter was chosen as the future medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force (IAF), it has been officially admitted that there are serious problems in negotiating the purchase with the French vendor, Dassault. the Indian Business Standardreports.​

Speaking to the media on Tuesday evening, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said there were “complications” in the negotiations, already on for almost three years, with the French side reluctant to meet commitments that IAF had specified in the tender. Parrikar mentioned that local production of Su-30 MKI by HAL would be adequate for the Indian Air Force (IAF) in case India will not procure the Rafale.


Past reports cited the reluctance of the French side to assume responsibility for the local production of 108 Rafales by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), mandated by the tender.

The IAF currently plans to have 272 Su-30MKI fighters by about 2018. HAL’s Nashik production line is building the fighter at $56 million each (358 crore Inr.), less than half the estimated cost of the Rafale.

In another reversal of previous ruling, Parrikar reiterated his intention to permit foreign arms companies to station “representatives or technical consultants” in India. India imposed a ban on ‘agents’ that after the Bofors gun scandal of 1987-88.

“Changes will be made to the Defence Procurement Policy. Company representatives will be allowed but commission, or percentage of profit for the deals will not be allowed.” Parrikar said, adding that representatives have to be registered with the ministry and remuneration shall be declared by the company.

According to The Tribune, a draft of the changed policy is ready and the final draft will be ready in the next few days and the process will be completed in 45 days. “The interests of the military would be taken care off” Parrikar declared.

Parrikar also indicated that may opt to lift lift the ban on blacklisted firms if the equipment they supply is crucial to the armed forces. The Minister made it clear that “success fees will not be allowed”. The Minister gave an example that Bharat Earth Movers Ltd (BEML) has been allowed to deal with the original Tatra company but not Tatra UK, which was banned following allegations of kick-backs.

India mulls switching from Rafale to Su30MKIs | Defense Update:

 

[Nodata]

India should 126 Eurofighters.

Better than refail

 

[Malik Alashter]

I just wonder why not either the F-18 super hornet or the F-16 B70 they are cheaper and equel if not better, plus there is no problem between India and the US of A.

 

[Supply&Demand]

I just wonder why not either the F-18 super hornet or the F-16 B70 they are cheaper and equel if not better, plus there is no problem between India and the US of A.

a) USA has not agreed to Transfer of Technology for f-16 and f-18
b) the shell life for these 2 planes is less now as they were developed in late 70s and early 80s..comparatively rafale and EF are new and they can b by IAF for a very long time...foe 3-4 decades with upgrades

 

[Hindustani78]

Author Ajay Shukla, that's enough in most of the cases to realize the value of the article. IN has no interest in the Sea Gripen, they didn't even sent the RFI for naval M-MRCAs to Saab, which is telling enough.
DRDO has shown interest in Saab, but far too late and without any logical sense. The chose Dassault for minor design consultancy, wanted LM to consult on navalising, ended up with Airbus and now wants Saab to consult on MK2, which once again only shows how poor DRDO's management skills are.

Is there anything wrong with the Author ?

That visit was important for DRDO and i do think more or less all these deals are related to the technology transfers and if DRDO get good offer for SAAB group then there is nothing wrong in that.

Saab And The Kalyani Group are working for air defence projects including the VSHORAD and SRSAM requirements.