Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[PARIKRAMA]

Hmmm, I thought that was what you meant but it raises some interesting questions, namely- what are those Rafale-M for? The first of the 18 follow-ons wlll be in service by 2020, the IAC-2 won't be in service by then and neither will the follow-on IAC-1 class carrier. So these Rafale-M have to be for the IAC-1, correct?

the exercising for Rafale M will happen later.. The idea is to first them get for a shore based training.. We have to set up like STOBAR SBTF in INS Hansa, Goa a similar SBTF for a catapult assisted launch have to be set up in a facility. These 18 Ms basically are planned for that specific purpose for training and start of building the squadrons needed for Vishal.

If the IAC1 will sport Rafale -M, then expect the entire 30+12-15= 42-45 contingent to be ordered from Merignac and placed in INS Hansa for the same purpose as i said before.

IMHO, the IAC1 should use Mig 29K as in INS Vikramaditya.. It makes more sense for the cost already incurred and also keep Russian side happy.. Beyond 2025 timeline, thats when the efficacy of Mig 29Ks should be coming down owing to marked improvement in naval variants across the globe including the Rafale F3R2 upgraded product line in Marine.


++++
Credit to @CNL-PN-AA in IDF for the Radio classique details and link..
Its an interview of Trappier and he said interesting things

http://indian defence.com/threads/mrca-updates-and-discussions.22159/page-1052#post-488185

and the link for Radio classique

http://www.radioclassique.fr/player...linvite-de-leconomie-2016-04-13-07-20-20.html

++
A big thank you to him for this link..

it follows earlier Trappier statement in results time where he said

"Today there is price negotiation for the first 36 devices but the principal of our work is to prepare a further 90 aircraft order. (...) We try to make a genuine partnership with Indian industrialists to set up a policy of "make in India". beyond the traditional offsets, Dassault Aviation would settle in India with our partners Safran, Thales and part of our subcontractors. We seek Indian partners to manufacture in India. "

 

[sathya]

long day.. just reached home.. but straight to the PC to type good news...

• Deal is done.. final papers exchanged..
• its officially 36 flyaway
• 90 make in India tranche 1
• Final numbers would be 300 Rafales with 100+ Rafale Ms
• The original 36+18 follow on.. The follow on will be later exercised for Rafale M for Indian Navy..
• Expect deal announcement soon..
• The 18s was pitted very aggressively but a question was asked what besides the jet and cooperation on other projects, the answer was inconclusive.
• The deal papers were exchanged in the meeting of March 29,2016.
• Bankers are confirmed...
• The first 36 flyaway, last batch jets will see a small job work in Indian facilities
• Details of the deal and actual contours wont be released in public except limited information.
• LnT is getting something very very big from French side as a part of the deal..Will straight forward go to an interesting project where 2 specific products with nuclear propulsion will simultaneously get constructed for 2 very different strategic roles.
• Officially certain news will be out soon..but before that expect a flurry of anti Rafale media reports
• Big folks expected soon to sign...dates will be announced soon..

Sorry for reading your post only now...
I always liked your Infos , whether that happens or changes..

Only wanted info that s occupying my mind , who is going to make in India ? Reliance ?
I pray to god , consortium of companies get to make parts.. Lead integrator as TATA.

On the hind sight , who is taking bigger risk with reliance , India or France ?
Reliance wouldn't mind Applying same technology on anything they get their hands on isn't it ?

 

[Spectre]

Ah! Slowly, some other Bharatis may get it that when I express doubts on MP as a politician
and think that Modi is a different more complete beast, I'm not choosing differently than for my own.
It's a defendable opinion, that's all! The guy talks but doesn't deliver : politician / used car salesman.





Fine way to go! Get the work done in IAF maintenance. Then get perfection at finalizing products.
Later, get to build/assemble product! By which time you should have learned to design it yourself!
If that last didn't happen, ask questions!



I'll differ my friend. The token 18 options go to IN to prepare the future.
And are served last or later. By the time the full complement is bought,
present public opinion will have faded and getting 46 more direct from
France will be greeted as friendly instead of decried as squandering ...

IST is very used in such dealings, over decades at best but over governments regularly.





Shush, Fantomas! No one but God can talk for others. It's quite simple :

The MII component is alive and well or there's no deal, Sherlock!​

Neither side can stomach the small deal alone, India less than France.



Yeah but even if you did not lack the dozen of trillions,
2 & a half millenium from now, it won't be cutting edge!



Considering the first share on the skimpy side with most
and that Russia uses French stuff on its airplanes already ...
that's a safe enough bet, huh?



Yeah, subtle difference though, or so it seems for many!
Despite all the disappointments, there will be an F-35?!?
Soon! ... Ah but here's that stretchable time again, what
does soon mean? USMC IOC? Done! Next IOC? AF 2016!

Soon for an AMCA fan depends on emotions : if he likes
AMCA soon is 2035, if he loves AMCA, it doesn't matter!
India will be there and waiting as always ...



Still all the best to all, Tay.

1. Tay, DA should step up their game, we are in the home stretch and frankly it's DA's race to loose. There is 40% mark-up which can be be bought down to 20% and DA will enjoy decades of unfettered access to gravy train.

2. GoI does not operate in silos atleast the present set up doesn't, how can you miss the obvious good cop - bad cop act!

3. AMCA is the twinkle in the eye, MII component will finalized keeping in mind the transfers to AMCA. Screwdriver jobs will not be acceptable - DA can ill afford to part with crown jewels while Boing and LM have plenty on the plate to share hence my partiality to them.

@PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy Yeh Dil Mange More! India looses leverage when it signs the current deal, hence the hectic and heartbreaking negotiations.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy Yeh Dil Mange More! India looses leverage when it signs the current deal, hence the hectic and heartbreaking negotiations.

What happens when the French finally call India's bluff with regard to US planes

Who gets the flak then or rather has to " eat crow "
Modi ; Parrikar ; the Bureaucracy; the media or the Fan boys

 

[PARIKRAMA]

What happens when the French finally call India's bluff with regard to US planes

Who gets the flak then or rather has to " eat crow "
Modi ; Parrikar ; the Bureaucracy; the media or the Fan boys

no one in French side or Indian side .. its part of carrot and stick policy for USA.. a tit for tat for what they did all these years with us

 

[Abingdonboy]

the exercising for Rafale M will happen later.. The idea is to first them get for a shore based training.. We have to set up like STOBAR SBTF in INS Hansa, Goa a similar SBTF for a catapult assisted launch have to be set up in a facility. These 18 Ms basically are planned for that specific purpose for training and start of building the squadrons needed for Vishal.

That makes sense, I guess those first Rafale-Ms will form a IFTU whilst the IAC-2 is under construction- the IN do have a lot to master vis a vis the Rafale-M and CATOBAR operations.

1. Tay, DA should step up their game, we are in the home stretch and frankly it's DA's race to loose. There is 40% mark-up which can be be bought down to 20% and DA will enjoy decades of unfettered access to gravy train.

2. GoI does not operate in silos atleast the present set up doesn't, how can you miss the obvious good cop - bad cop act!

3. AMCA is the twinkle in the eye, MII component will finalized keeping in mind the transfers to AMCA. Screwdriver jobs will not be acceptable - DA can ill afford to part with crown jewels while Boing and LM have plenty on the plate to share hence my partiality to them.

@PARIKRAMA and @Abingdonboy Yeh Dil Mange More! India looses leverage when it signs the current deal, hence the hectic and heartbreaking negotiations.

I agree with DA needing to appreciate the potential of this deal for themselves and it would be a sound strategic decsion to comprimise now in order to secure the Indian market- once they have their foot in the door they are set for the next 40 years. I think it would be wrong to treat India just like any other nation, the scales involved and where India is heading is very very unique.

However, I think it is almost laughable to say the US has more to offer India as far as the AMCA goes, they may very well have certain tech that is unmatched but do you think they are going to transfer that to India? Boeing and LM are in no position to make any offers, they are entirely dependant on USG clearances and we all know how forthcoming (or not) they have been thus far (ToT on the Raven mini UAV is about the sum total of their much vaunted "strategic partnership" with India thus far). As such, Dassualt and France's aerospace industry is FAR more attractive considering India's strategic aims and where India stands on the geopolitical stage. The US will just mess India around and the Russians are already in that position.

What happens when the French finally call India's bluff with regard to US planes

Who gets the flak then or rather has to " eat crow "
Modi ; Parrikar ; the Bureaucracy; the media or the Fan boys

It's not going to get to that stagem it is in both Indian and French interests to secure the Rafale deal. I don't think France is going to call anyone's bluff, not with this kind of sums involved.

 

[sathya]

no one in French side or Indian side .. its part of carrot and stick policy for USA.. a tit for tat for what they did all these years with us

We are still looking USA for engines..,
And other one of the kind weapons ..
US would the get deals for tejas, jaguar engines, not sure about AMCA.. may be..

 

[Abingdonboy]

We are still looking USA for engines..,
And other one of the kind weapons ..
US would the get deals for tejas, jaguar engines, not sure about AMCA.. may be..

The Indian market is large enough to satisfy everyone.

As for engines, if this Rafale deal is clinched and in the scale one is talking about (200+) the ADA had better consider fitting uprated M88s in the AMCA, it would be foolish to puruse the F414.

 

[sathya]

The Indian market is large enough to satisfy everyone.

As for engines, if this Rafale deal is clinched and in the scale one is talking about (200+) the ADA had better consider fitting uprated M88s in the AMCA, it would be foolish to puruse the F414.

It would be better if we can get M88 even for tejas mk2 if possible, now that it's far away -post 2020.. after mk1A.
We did try with Snecma for tejas, which for reasons unknown, didn't go well.
Hopefully after rafale deal things turn around.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The Indian market is large enough to satisfy everyone.

As for engines, if this Rafale deal is clinched and in the scale one is talking about (200+) the ADA had better consider fitting uprated M88s in the AMCA, it would be foolish to puruse the F414.

The M88 family is designed to fit with a thrust between 7,5 T and 11 T. And SNECMA already have proposed to use the M-88 core in the Kaveri engine to fix its problems.

 

[Abingdonboy]

It would be better if we can get M88 even for tejas mk2 if possible, now that it's far away -post 2020.. after mk1A.
We did try with Snecma for tejas, which for reasons unknown, didn't go well.
Hopefully after rafale deal things turn around.

This would be ideal and would make the LCA a far more attractive proposition for both the IAF and the international market.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

potentially engine offers are going to change beyond 414 family....

On one side is M88 family which has a vast array of engine solutions and a potential to go beyond also based on specific needs and financing... its one the families which can be upgraded further.. something you wont be able to do much with 414 EPE.

on other side, i am also having a strong feeling that if VSTOL LSA concept proves which i feel it will then there is a good chance of EJ230 engine and its family also a potentially good choice.

what i would love to see is perhaps a uprated 10-11T engine of M88 fitted in LCA to check if its possible.. one issue i see is the air intake.. so perhaps the MK2 variant or perhaps even a newer better version of MK1A can become a good test bench.. something which i believe is also possible with EJ230 family...

In short, if we want to shake USA, we can do it surely.. we just needs to have balls to go through the entire thing.. i am sure when we do something like that DTII will have 414 EPE blue print and whole manufacturing given to us as a carrot.. we have to be smart to understand if its ok to accept it or bargain something even more strategic...

 

[zebra7]

It would be better if we can get M88 even for tejas mk2 if possible, now that it's far away -post 2020.. after mk1A.
We did try with Snecma for tejas, which for reasons unknown, didn't go well.
Hopefully after rafale deal things turn around.

Changing the engine, is not so easy like a plug and play usb device.
First the Airintake nozzle have to be redesign to supplement the desired pressure and air volume for the optimal thrust output. Second, the hydraullics, pipelines, pumbs, the C.G of the aircraft due to change of wt. all have to worked out will full set of aerial test and validation. The FCS have to be reprogrammed, and validated with full testing.

Take an example of simple change of INS, a navigation system, in LCA Tejas, which makes the programming of the software of the mission and flight computers, of hundereds of lines, changing the parameters, and that causes 6 month delay.

PS the airframe of the plane is designed around a powerplant, not the other way around.

 

[sathya]

Changing the engine, is not so easy like a plug and play usb device.
First the Airintake nozzle have to be redesign to supplement the desired pressure and air volume for the optimal thrust output. Second, the hydraullics, pipelines, pumbs, the C.G of the aircraft due to change of wt. all have to worked out will full set of aerial test and validation. The FCS have to be reprogrammed, and validated with full testing.

Take an example of simple change of INS, a navigation system, in LCA Tejas, which makes the programming of the software of the mission and flight computers, of hundereds of lines, changing the parameters, and that causes 6 month delay.

PS the airframe of the plane is designed around a powerplant, not the other way around.

Anyways for mk2 we are going to change to GE414 from 404, redesign air intake and lot other things
Since France is said to help with undercarriage, air intake etc, M88 also makes sense ?

 

[zebra7]

We are still looking USA for engines..,
And other one of the kind weapons ..
US would the get deals for tejas, jaguar engines, not sure about AMCA.. may be..

Well, that's why a national effort for the indigenous Turbo fan engine is a must. Good thing our GTRE guys are confident that, they have solved the puzzle to build the turbo fan engine, and they are still waiting for the Supersonic test bed MIG-29 of IAF. Atleast for the organisation like GTRE, national test beds like Subsonic and supersonic test bed and a dedicated airport is needed to test the turbofan, and various LRU's.

Anyways for mk2 we are going to change to GE414 from 404, redesign air intake and lot other things
Since France is said to help with undercarriage, air intake etc, M88 also makes sense ?

1. MK-2 is nothing but the Naval version of LCA Tejas MK-1.
2. Higher thrust from F414 is needed for the carrier operation, because LCA won't be able to airborne with substantial load from the ski jump deck of the carrier.
3. Lca Tejas, whether MK-1 or MK-2 air intake was designed around the Kaveri Specs aka hiegher airintake pressure but it was never redesigned rather patched by the ADA by opening few intake ports to reduce the pressure, and in case of MK-2 increasing the Airinlet opening few cm. When we are talking about the airintake nozzle, that includes the whole nozzle including the Y duct, and not the external opening what you see in the picture.
4. Kaveri was delinked from the LCA project only but the development continues. Kaveri is only the proof of technology, the real engine will now be build on the technology build or developed with the Kaveri, and should be ready (reliable enough) for the mass production around 2024-25.
5. Problem with the Naval LCA is that being a single engine, the LCA didn't have the keel below, which strengthen the stucture, and needed to strengthen to take the load, pressure of the controlled crash landing during the carrier operation.
6. M88 (Snerma) and Dassault makes sense because, India have a secret project called AURA, the must needed part of the 5th Generation Air Warfare, and French have there own Nueron. No OEM responded for the RFI issued by the ADA for the development of the stealth USAV project, and it could be worked out with the french, in the deal of the Rafale.