Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

[randomradio]

A bank Guarantee ? or a Presidential guarantee ?

The French govt has nothing to do with it. Dassault has its own terms for guarantees and it's providing that for the Rafale deal. It is a private company.

If you want to know more about how Dassault works, you will have to ask @Picdelamirand-oil for that.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

WRONG. A Sovereign Guarantee is a Government's guarantee that an obligation will be satisfied if the primary obliger defaults.



RUBBISH. You are ASSUMING what the sovereign guarantee will involve.

Any Guarantee is only to ensures execution of the contract, irrespective of the circumstances.



IRRELEVANT.

All forms of Guarantees are acceptable. Some more than others depending on the risk.



That is just another form of Guarantee.



WRONG. The Russian Guarantee is a Sovereign guarantee.

The French guarantee offer is NOT a sovereign guarantee. Its only a letter from the President, promising adherence to the contract.

A sovereign guarantee is when the president signs ON BEHALF of the nation. A Presidential guarantee is when the president signs on behalf of himself. It is worthless. Especially if he is out of power.



THAT is why its a bad idea to do business with the US. THAT is why India keeps away from the US deals.

Pakistan learnt it the hard way.



That is not our problem. It is for the seller to give a Guarantee that will satisfy our Risk.

The choice is between a Bank Guarantee or Sovereign guarantee. Or a Mix of both.

What is NON NEGOTIABLE is that our Risk to be covered by an Guarantee that can be executed to cover our Risk.



To cut the BS short, You are advocating taking an executable Bank Guarantee, right ?

However DA has refused to provide one. Go figure.

Do not mislead people.. Please provide one credible source that for licence produced MKI Russia gave sovereign guarantee..

If it did then why the hell our MKI availability was 55%

We have last year got a sovereign guarantee for spare and supply .. Uptill than there was no sovereign guarantee for MKI..

So stop spewing your nonsense and misleading public

 

[randomradio]

I am not interested in how Dassault works.

I am interested in how the Guarantee works. I am still waiting for you reply regarding that.

Is it a bank guarantee or a presidential guarantee ?

Like I said, I don't know. You will have to ask the person I mentioned regarding how Dassault's guarantee works.

That there was no guarantee for the Su 30 MKI deal so there should be non for Rafale deal ? Lets cut through the BS an come to the point straight.

HAL provides the guarantee for the MKIs. Sukhoi in turn provides guarantees for their part of the work to HAL.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

To cut the BS short, You are advocating taking an executable Bank Guarantee, right ?

However DA has refused to provide one. Go figure

I am not interested in how Dassault works.

I am interested in how the Guarantee works. I am still waiting for you reply regarding that.

Is it a bank guarantee or a presidential guarantee ?



Again I am not sure what you are trying to tell me.

That there was no guarantee for the Su 30 MKI deal so there should be non for Rafale deal ? Lets cut through the BS an come to the point straight.

It is you who is making a fool yourself

You said Russian Guarantee is Sovereign now when i asked give proof you are deflecting ..

Again if you are saying a President can sign a sovereign guarantee, you are saying a half truth.. According to the constitution of the country, a Prez, a PM or any other constitutionally approved body can sign the sovereign guarantee for a country.

But thats just the first part, The system states that it has to be approved by a a body known as Ministry of Finacne and by a democratically elected body called Parliament. In other words, its meaning less if the same gets not approved if Ministry of Finance does not add their recommendation for approval and senat and Assembly has to approve it to keep the sanctity of the Guarantee...

Secondly, DA said no PBG/FBG only when it was in MMRCA for HAL made Rafales.. There is no place where its saying NO to the new deal where its choosing a new pvt sector partner in India..

So stop making a fool out of yourselves...

 

[Blue Marlin]

I am not interested in how Dassault works.

I am interested in how the Guarantee works. I am still waiting for you reply regarding that.

Is it a bank guarantee or a presidential guarantee ?



Again I am not sure what you are trying to tell me.

That there was no guarantee for the Su 30 MKI deal so there should be non for Rafale deal ? Lets cut through the BS an come to the point straight.

you need to tone down on your attitude here otherwise you wont last very long. pari has told you what you have asked and all you have done is been disrespectful and making a fool of yourself.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

A bank Guarantee ? or a Presidential guarantee ?

India will be making payments only in instalments

There is NO loan involved

Usually sovereign guarentees are asked for in case where a large loan has been taken

Secondly dealing with France is NOT new for India

So why should there be so much confusion

 

[Blue Marlin]

Are you interested in proving me a "fool" are are you going to tell us what kind of guarantee the Dassault deal will have ?

The ONLY one deflection the issue is you.

The debate is not on who can sign the sovereign guarantee ...... I am not interested in that right now and that looks like classic deflection again.

I ask you AGAIN for the 3rd TIME.

Is Dassault going to provide a bank Guarantee or a Presidential Guarantee ?

Just give me a simple 1 line answer.



I am touched by your concern. I take it you have nothing to contribute to the thread other than giving unsolicited advice ?

i have contributed look at the previous pages and you will find i have made quiet some contributions. i think thats something you should do, read past pages and get upto speed.
ohh by the way, i reported your posts too.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Samskara do you think you know better than the GoI, MoD, Dassualt and the French government? You keep asking the same questions and when you get your answer you engage in personal attacks and dismiss all such reason outright. A "comfort letter" is acceptable under the terms and conditions that have been outlined in the IGA and is not new to India. This news is perhaps 6-7 months late, liability, offsets, workshare, customisation etc all have been finalised prior to Hollande's visit in Jan 2016. The remaining issue was/is cost and even that seems to have moved foreward lately.


More paid news on behalf of vested interests.


After reading this it was clear:

official documents accessed by The Indian Express show

So now the Indian Express is able to access classified documents in ongoing negotiations between two nations involving a strategic deal? The only people with such documentation are the CNC (in the MoD) and Dassualt- not even the DM of India would have them. These idiots in the media don't seem to understand if that were the case they would be prosecuted under the offical secrets act of India and so would whoever provided them such secret documents. Military intelligence and the IB would be all over them if there was even a shred of truth to this.


It's unbelivable how gullible they expect us to be. @PARIKRAMA @Stephen Cohen @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil

 

[Blue Marlin]

@Deino i know you hang mainly around the chinese section but the user @Samskara is trolling like hell can you take action. regards

 

[Stephen Cohen]

What has "Loan" anything to do with it ? That is just a red herring.

A Guarantee is a standard business practice even without a loan.

Finally what has our past dealings with France got anything to do with Guarantees for the present and future ?

The Inter Governmental Agreement must be having safe guards

The IGA has been signed by the French Government is nt it


Dassault is a big and reputed company

It is a very prominent name in the International aviation sector

If Dassault is a giving a guarantee ; it should be good and acceptable

Our concerns are mainly regarding TOT ; offsets and spares

Why do we need a sovereign guarentee for that

Now The Russian Mistral saga cannot happen here
If that is worrying some one

 

[Abingdonboy]

The Inter Governmental Agreement must be having safe guards

The IGA has been signed by the French Government is nt it


Dassault is a big and reputed company

It is a very prominent name in the International aviation sector

If Dassault is a giving a guarantee ; it should be good and acceptable

Our concerns are mainly regarding TOT ; offsets and spares

Why do we need a sovereign guarentee for that

Now The Russian Mistral saga cannot happen here
If that is the worrying some one

The most absurd part of all this is some are getting so fixated on the liability clauses outlined in this contract but when is the last time India actually enacted any such penalty clause in a defence contract?

The one time I can think of is the AW-101 deal and that time AK Anthony completely contravened all established norms and unilaterally encashed bank guarentees for no reason whatsoever (other than covering his usless backside).

 

[Stephen Cohen]

The most absurd part of all this is some are getting so fixated on the liability clauses outlined in this contract but when is the last time India actually enacted any such penalty clause in a defence contract?

The one time I can think of is the AW-101 deal and that time AK Anthony completely contravened all established norms and unilaterally encashed bank guarentees for no reason whatsoever (other than covering his usless backside).

We can use the template of
Our recent deals with France namely Scorpene and Mirage upgrades

In the Scorpene deal we made mistakes and had to sign supplementary contracts

I think it is naive to think that IGA has some loop holes which can be exploited

The French President himself said in an Interview that IGA is the Precondition
for this mega deal

 

[topgun047]

India did not insist on such guarantees earlier because it was not in a position to dictate such terms, which it is now owing to a stronger geopolitical hand.

Never doing something before is a stupid excuse for not doing it.

All countries including Russia and France have used absense of such a clause to screw India by delaying TOT already paid for citing lack of maturity of Indian Industry.

Search "F16 sale of the century" on youtube if you are interested to find how Lockheed Martin screwed Norway and Denmark in 1970s.

 

[Abingdonboy]

India did not insist on such guarantees earlier because it was not in a position to dictate such terms, which it is now owing to a stronger geopolitical hand.

Never doing something before is a stupid excuse for not doing it.

All countries including Russia and France have used absense of such a clause to screw India by delaying TOT already paid for citing lack of maturity of Indian Industry.

Search "F16 sale of the century" on youtube if you are interested to find how Lockheed Martin screwed Norway and Denmark in 1970s.

Who said there were to be no guarentees? That's what the "Comfort Letter" takes care of. But there is no need for a Sovereign Guarantee as Dassualt is a private entity and this deal is not being pursued through a government-government route like FMS in the US or through Rosoboronexport as with Russia. This is a commerical sale.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

DA does most of its sales in cash. It does use BGs for progress payments as seen below
Consolidated Financials

Notice the words Customer Advances and Progress payments- Thats secured by Bank Guarantees..