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Dassault Rafale, tender | News & Discussions [Thread 2]

Yes but right now energy is a buyers market. So India can afford to let such deals drag on longer than Russia can (which has lost almost half of its GDP in dollar terms because of the energy price crunch). I guess lets wait and see. Do you have any links for the estimated size of these deals?

It's more complicated than this, yes oil prices are low but who is going to sell you key stakes? Stakes are strategic in nature and remember oil prices will rise in the future. India has recently obtained a 15% stake in a Russian project and is negotiating another stake in Russia's biggest oil reserve.

I would post the links but I am using my mobile but just Google it

The 15% recent stake was for $1.5 bn though

My guess is €9bn the final contract but maybe €8.5bn we can aim for.
 
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It's more complicated than this, yes oil prices are low but who is going to sell you key stakes? Stakes are strategic in nature and remember oil prices will rise in the future. India has recently obtained a 15% stake in a Russian project and is negotiating another stake in Russia's biggest oil reserve.

I would post the links but I am using my mobile but just Google it

The 15% recent stake was for $1.5 bn though

My guess is €9bn the final contract but maybe €8.5bn we can aim for.

Thanks bro. What is your field of expertise...is it related to this sector?
 
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Thanks bro. What is your field of expertise...is it related to this sector?

I have been working with tenders for over 15 years both in software and the telecoms industry but we have clients in every industry sector such as the oil/gas industry.

IAF should have bought the mirage 2000 production line but alas perhaps due to finance or decision making things never transpired.
 
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IAF should have bought the mirage 2000 production line but alas perhaps due to finance or decision making things never transpired.

One of the biggest (yet underrated) policy disasters in recent times for Indian defence sector.

It was not finance related at all seeing how much we are now going to be coughing out. Things were going quite swimmingly fiscally during 2004 onwards, all that was needed was some pragmatic common sense and foresight. We coulda been churning out those bad boys by the hundreds now to make up any shortfall...and introduce LCA at some point efficiently as well.
 
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One of the biggest (yet underrated) policy disasters in recent times for Indian defence sector.

It was not finance related at all seeing how much we are now going to be coughing out. Things were going quite swimmingly fiscally during 2004 onwards, all that was needed was some pragmatic common sense and foresight. We coulda been churning out those bad boys by the hundreds now to make up any shortfall...and introduce LCA at some point efficiently as well.

I guess we live and learn (or we should) I was reading recently that the Chinese have started to employ engineers from the west to work on their jet engines. Why India can't adopt fresh ideas and get the best brains we can? Nobody is going to give us things like crystal blade tech so we need to think outside the box a little.
 
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I guess we live and learn (or we should) I was reading recently that the Chinese have started to employ engineers from the west to work on their jet engines. Why India can't adopt fresh ideas and get the best brains we can? Nobody is going to give us things like crystal blade tech so we need to think outside the box a little.

For that we need one of two things (or both preferably):

a) Sufficient economic margins to lower opportunity cost (we are still not there for things like jet engines, by default)

b) Strong willingness to sacrifice/invest to gain long term. This can temporarily solve a) if done in a well managed way. India does this already in certain areas....but for jet engine we need to increase several fold to get an organisation like GTRE to act in better concert with private production entities capable of executing efficiently. This needs DRDO to be reformed and excellent bureaucracy and leadership along the lines found in ISRO.

Single crystal blade tech is already done in India....the technology itself has been around since before world war 2 (the main issue lies with efficient production and quality control - both of which can be easily achieved with relatively minimal RnD).

The crucial issues lie with superalloy composition and the manufacturing techniques regarding casting and forging. Even in my company (PW), no one person knows every single detail, high tech know how is quite compartmentalised for protecting IP and trade secrets. When you get physically import people, you have to start from scratch and ground up all over again (even if you import a whole dedicated team)....so it may save you a few years....but it will end up costing roughly the same resources. Thats why the Chinese are still having many problems and will continue to have such problems for some time yet...the gap will narrow quite slowly because materials science is a tricky mistress in the long run with no real short cuts. I know this firsthand, I have been to our facility in Chengdu China...and I saw just how careful PW in allowing only the relatively well known technologies to be operationalised there for supply chains (blisks, LP compressors, combustors etc).

Once Indian market is big enough and there is more manufacturing taking place within India, same thing will naturally happen there. I think in the coming 10 years or so, there will be much expansion in transport propulsion technologies in India....provided Skill India and Make in India programs are at least 50% successful. But real top notch RnD to completely be on the cutting edge will take a full generation I think.
 
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For that we need one of two things (or both preferably):

a) Sufficient economic margins to lower opportunity cost (we are still not there for things like jet engines, by default)

b) Strong willingness to sacrifice/invest to gain long term. This can temporarily solve a) if done in a well managed way. India does this already in certain areas....but for jet engine we need to increase several fold to get an organisation like GTRE to act in better concert with private production entities capable of executing efficiently. This needs DRDO to be reformed and excellent bureaucracy and leadership along the lines found in ISRO.

Single crystal blade tech is already done in India....the technology itself has been around since before world war 2 (the main issue lies with efficient production and quality control - both of which can be easily achieved with relatively minimal RnD).

The crucial issues lie with superalloy composition and the manufacturing techniques regarding casting and forging. Even in my company (PW), no one person knows every single detail, high tech know how is quite compartmentalised for protecting IP and trade secrets. When you get physically import people, you have to start from scratch and ground up all over again (even if you import a whole dedicated team)....so it may save you a few years....but it will end up costing roughly the same resources. Thats why the Chinese are still having many problems and will continue to have such problems for some time yet...the gap will narrow quite slowly because materials science is a tricky mistress in the long run with no real short cuts. I know this firsthand, I have been to our facility in Chengdu China...and I saw just how careful PW in allowing only the relatively well known technologies to be operationalised there for supply chains (blisks, LP compressors, combustors etc).

Once Indian market is big enough and there is more manufacturing taking place within India, same thing will naturally happen there. I think in the coming 10 years or so, there will be much expansion in transport propulsion technologies in India....provided Skill India and Make in India programs are at least 50% successful. But real top notch RnD to completely be on the cutting edge will take a full generation I think.


Some good points but the Chinese have also been rather successful in hacking defence sites to extract key data as well as bribing. There was a famous case of a Indian American scientist who they bribed to obtain some classified information. Also the way they are gobbling up commercial companies in the west such as the recent German firm will have spin off benefits for their defence industry.

They bought a single SU-33 from Ukraine to reverse engineer it and this is the type of tactics they will use. Being a little cunning has its benefits but drawbacks too as witnessed by their quality.
 
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Some good points but the Chinese have also been rather successful in hacking defence sites to extract key data as well as bribing. There was a famous case of a Indian American scientist who they bribed to obtain some classified information. Also the way they are gobbling up commercial companies in the west such as the recent German firm will have spin off benefits for their defence industry.

Yes I am well aware of the B-2 NG engineer of Indian descent that passed on information to them. But that info was not the inner workings of a jet engine. But still you have a fair point. Of course their acquisitions, skill import etc will all have an impact in the years to come on their capabilities....but thats because they now have strong economic margins to do this. India is not there, we will have to pick and choose and prioritise for now till we are outputting 10 million or so good paying "generic" skilled jobs every year for many many years and beyond (instead of the traditional 200k or less....which only recently increased to 500k in 2015). Then the margins will be there to do the same for whatever high technology is strongly required by the society.

They bought a single SU-33 from Ukraine to reverse engineer it and this is the type of tactics they will use. Being a little cunning has its benefits but drawbacks too as witnessed by their quality.

Reverse engineering itself is quite difficult and gives only certain results...when it comes to jet engines....especially if you choose Russian/Ukrainian (former USSR) jet engine tech. Thats why you can see them always preferring western tech and know how...because thats where the forefront is in this sector and incorporating organically in the RnD process rather than just trying to copy what you get put in front of you. Same will go for India.
 
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@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @MilSpec
Seems Kuwait is Buying Just 28 Eurofighter At €8 billion (US $8.7 billion)
http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...ce-kuwait-sign-deal-28-eurofighters/79394322/


9 Billion For 36 Rafale Seems Fair To me Now
your take Guys

People think French are charging more to India out of the blue. It is the standard complete life cycle cost for plane of that generation.

The problem lies with the original MMRCA contract not defining the contract size by total life cycle cost but initial hardware acquisition/production cost....so there are two differing definitions that people think are apples to apples.
 
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Thats toooo long and as I said before in one of the other Rafale threads, too few for a country the size of India.

Egypt getting 24. They already have the second tranche. So go figure!
 
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he is behind the Rafale deal,
Let's face it.
France has declared economic emergency, mounting debt and unemployment has kept the French on the edge. Defence industry is their only hope. They need to close this deal even if it means lesser profit.
This has been called the "mother of all defence deals" for no reason. :)
Our relations with Russia are cordial as of now, and Indian govt will maintain the status quo...or so I assume.
 
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