Dancing in presence of PM Gillani

[muse]

DS

It is not possible to see (at least I think) your female cousin dancing with the same eye you will watch a belly dancer or a whore

Do you see how it is with these people? they just can't avoid going personal

Belly Dancing is unarabic, unIslamic, lowered eyes, blah, blah and yet you would watch whores?
tauba, Tauba, tauba, Tauba se tauba

 

[brilTek]

Briltek

Why are islamist so emotional? Your entire position is that our government must exercise the hypocracy of the Islamist - on the one hand our government is fighting an Islamist insurgency and our fith column seeks to enforce on the rest of us, their notions of appropriate behavior.
Why parties, Why dancing, why fun why frivolity -- easy briltek - You, I and all of us know that there will continue to be parties, there will continue to be joy and frivolity -- but like in your Arabia, we will have hypocracy in public - and that does not work for those of us who are sick of the hyprocracy and just want to be what we are, free.

YES...I’m fully aware of our leader’s imperialistic minds. There is a saying “If rulers can’t finish hunger, at least share it”

I want my accident rulers to be HYPOCRITE though it’s difficult. At least they can pretend of sharing soreness. They can avoid & discourage such parties, lavish expenditures to show solidarity with nation.

AND MY ARMY IS NOT FIGHTING to promote vulgarity & liberal fascism. They are sacrificing their lives for women rights, for girl’s education, for tolerance.

If PM wants to watch dance, I’ve no problem but it shouldn’t be on people expense. You must have heard what happened in UK over expenses row. He should arrange with his own money and he is responsible for his actions on day of judgement. Of course, one day we all have to die and will be held responsible for our actions/thoughts.

 

[Rajkumar]

Fair enough, i would like to ask for a reference please?

I want the exact reference from the book with exact Hadees Number. I will leave my comments afterwards..... and also i am pretty sure if this thing ever took place it has to be the male only.

oh come on let me tell u something in very brief now,

It is okk to dance if there are no females in Males party i mean if all the males are dancing in the party without the presenceof female, same is for females, they can dance without the presence of male. But it is highly unlikely going to happen, dancing in itself is nothing but when both male and female dancing together, it is not good to maitain modesty. When Female dances all their private parts are visible and it is directly agains the verse in Surah Noor.

First you give me the quoted Hadeeth and then i will try to explain a bit about Dance in very short words and mind you, I am not a scholar but a normal person like you so nothing CONFIRMED but i will try to share my understandings on this issue

private parts???
i mean do you have another definition of private parts.

 

[spurdozer]

Dancing, is not permissible in front of men, non-mahrams, mahrams or women, because of the fitnah that may be caused by the movements of the body. It is well known that women may feel desire for one another, and even if that is not the case, there is no guarantee that one of them will not go back to her menfolk and describe to them what she has seen of the beauty of the dancer and her movement, so this may affect the men and may cause a great deal of mischief. So here mahrams and non-mahrams should also be taken into context.

 

[DarkStar]

the Following below are taken from Sahih Al Muslim's online translation.

Book 004, Number 1940:
'A'isha reported that Abu Bakr came to her and there were with her two girls on Adha days who were singing and beating the tambourine and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had wrapped himself with his mantle. Abu Bakr scolded them. The Messenger of Allah (may peace he upon him) uncovered (his face) and said: Abu Bakr, leave them alone for these are the days of 'Id. And 'A'isha said: I recapitulate to my mind the fact that once the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) screened me with his mantle and I saw the sports of the Abyssinians, and I was only a girl, and so you can well imagine how a girl of tender age is fond of watching the sport.

Book 004, Number 1942:
'A'isha reported: The Messenger of Allah (way peace be upon him) came (in my apartment) while there were two girls with me singing the song of the Battle of Bu'ath. He lay down on the bed and turned away his face. Then came Abu Bakr and he scolded me and said: Oh! this musical instrument of the devil in the house of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)! The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) turned towards him and said: Leave them alone. And when he (the Holy Prophet) became unattentive, I hinted them and they went out, and it was the day of 'Id and negroes were playing with shields and speare. (I do not remember) whether I asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) or whether he said to me if I desired to see (that sport). I said: Yes. I stood behind him with his face parallel to my face, and he said: O Banu Arfada, be busy (in your sports) till I was satiated. He said (to me): Is that enough? I said: Yes. Upon this he asked me to go.

Book 004, Number 1945:
'A'isha said that she sent a message to the players (of this armed fight) saying: I like to see them (fighting). She further said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) stood up and I stood at the door (behind him) and saw (this fight) between his ears and his shoulders they played in the mosque. 'Ata' (one of the narra- tors) said: Were they persians or Abyssinians? Ibn 'Atiq told me they were Abyssinians.

Book 004, Number 1946:
Abu Huraira reported: While the Abyssinians were busy playing with their arms in the presence of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) 'Umar b. Khattab came there. He bent down to take up pebbles to throw at them (in order to make them go off). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said to him: 'Umar, leave them alone.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/004.smt.html

 

[muse]

Briltek

The Pakistan army fights an ISLAMIST INSURGENCY, among others, and kills Islamists on behalf of the people of Pakistan whom the Islmaist have targetted -- I don't know what your army is doing, but I have my suspicions.

Share soreness? You first, is that unfair? What soreness are you sharing other than being upset your boys in the hills are being targetted by the Fauj and the US?

See, if the original position was as Asim articulated, there would be no reason to go this route, but as soon as Islamists imagined that they will decidse the mores of Pakistani society based on their understanding of Islam, the position lost credibility.

 

[spurdozer]

Well here the dancing means the mujrah dance.
Salam.

 

[DarkStar]

Well here the dancing means the mujrah dance.
Salam.

I don't mind you sharing your point of view.

However, I find it objectionable, and I am sad, that people who claim to be the propogators and defenders of islam, who talk about Quran and Saheeh Hadeeth, are in fact themselves ignorant of much of this literature.

I knew about these Ahadeeth when I was 13 years old, yet we have staunch supporters of Islamic viewpoints who have not even stumbled across them.

I suggest people actually start reading Quran and Hadees for themselves, rather than listengin to other people's biased interpretations of them.

 

[Rajkumar]

music and dancing promotes relaxation, at least every body will have to agree with it. it also good for mental and physical health.
why there is so much controversy about music and dance in Islam. considered as haram by many.
some would argue that dance promotes vulgarity then what about music at least it does not do that ,right. you can not compare it with smoking or drinking as haram because these things harms individual and society as well but dance or music don't.
tell me one good logic, why there is this big dispute among even educated Muslim people about dance and music.

 

[qsaark]

I suggest people actually start reading Quran and Hadees for themselves, rather than listengin to other people's biased interpretations of them.

No, banning of dances and music is not in Quran, but in Sura Nisa, it is clearly instructed how men and women should behave. In the light of those instructions, it is not possible that Mujras are allowed in Islam. Muslim men are instructed to lower their gaze and women to cover themselves up well, how a man can watch mujra while lowering his gaze and how a female can dance while covering herself up? Similarly, there is a huge differences between interacting with women of your family who are your relatives and women who are not your from your family. It is not possible to see (at least I think) your female cousin dancing with the same eye you will watch a belly dancer or a whore.

What is your take on above?
What relevance you are trying to establish between Hadiths you have quoted and mujras and/or male-female mixed dances?

 

[spurdozer]

I don't mind you sharing your point of view.

However, I find it objectionable, and I am sad, that people who claim to be the propogators and defenders of islam, who talk about Quran and Saheeh Hadeeth, are in fact themselves ignorant of much of this literature.

I knew about these Ahadeeth when I was 13 years old, yet we have staunch supporters of Islamic viewpoints who have not even stumbled across them.

I suggest people actually start reading Quran and Hadees for themselves, rather than listengin to other people's biased interpretations of them.

I agree with you completely. I have always believed that instead of listening to fundamentalists (TTP) or liberal extremists (founder of the true Furqa'an). We must first read the tafseer of the Quran-al-Kareem and the Authentic Ahadees (Saheeh Muslim). And then he should ask his heart what is true. Allah will then surely help him in finding the true path of success.
Salam

 

[muse]

There did not used to be a dispute, but then some Pakistanis caught Wahabi fever - and that was all she wrote - they seemed to have forgotten that they are Pakistanis, that Pakistan has a super rich cultural heritage, pre-islam, post Islam and current, with influences from regional, provincial, Hindu Hindustan, Arabian Pennisula, Persian Gulf, Iran, turkic and the West .

Sometimes it's surreal with these people, honestly, I can't imagine Pakistanis without fun, Pakistani sense of humour, Pakistani joy of living and making the best of lives -- these guys, one wonders what they are doing in US and UK, they seem to hate the places in which they live and yet continue to assert their holier than thou stuff on the rest of us.

 

[DarkStar]

music and dancing promotes relaxation, at least every body will have to agree with it. it also good for mental and physical health.
why there is so much controversy about music and dance in Islam. considered as haram by many.
some would argue that dance promotes vulgarity then what about music at least it does not do that ,right. you can not compare it with smoking or drinking as haram because these things harms individual and society as well but dance or music don't.
tell me one good logic, why there is this big dispute among even educated Muslim people about dance and music.

This is because Islam, as a way of life, does not just give us a list of dos and don'ts, but teaches us how to organise a harmonious society. Therefore even acts that might seem unharmful, are sometimes forbidden due to where they might lead in the future.

For example, sexual promiscuousness is forbidden in most religions, yet Islam has enjoined us to dress modestly and lower our gaze. This, along with a certain revered distance between the genders, makes sure that the avenues to promisuous behaviour are also shut.

The same logic can be applied to vulgar dances and music that inspires one to be sinful.

Another issue is that muslims are almost united on issues of doctrine and creed, so the only differences that are explored are those of practice.

That is why there is no designation as an orthodox muslim, yet we inspire to be orthoprax.

This is in contrast to christians who infinitely divided due to differences in doctrine, so practice is not a big issue.

 

[spurdozer]

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No woman should look at another woman then describe her to her husband so that it is as if he can see her.” [ Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4839].

 

[DarkStar]

It was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No woman should look at another woman then describe her to her husband so that it is as if he can see her.” [ Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4839].

Yes, it is an uncouth thing to do. Women deserve their privacy.

It must be kept in mind that the forbidance is not for one woman looking at another, but for the woman to tell her husband about another woman's features, body, hair, figure, beauty, etc.