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Cyrus the Great was defeated and killed by a women

Wikipedia is not always a scientific source. There are many historians and scholars who say that the word "Scythian" was a collective term to describe different nomads who had a similar lifestyle including Turkic and Slavic ones. The assumed Iranic Scythians were culturally steppe nomads but where are the Iranic steppe nomads today? Ossetians are culturally Caucasian mountain people. The only culturally steppe nomads today are some Turkic tribes and Mongols. That Scythians spoke only Eastern Iranian languages is a utterly ridiculous claim from wikipedian Iranocentrists

Dear Charon, I don't wanna be rude, but can you name those historians? I am a half azerbaijani Iranian and I respect turks. but the fact is pan turks have distorted the history and wrote many fake stuff and no one else believes or agrees with them. Nothing is wrong with wikipedia about it. all credible history books which they are written based on real historical documents, sources and facts, agree about it, and believe me that with the current world situation, no one wants to propaganda in favor of Iranians. Anyways, it does not matter that if Iranians are currently nomadic or not. but, if its important for you, FYI, Iran still has about 2-3% nomadic people. In eastern Iranian tribes, in which the most important ones are pashthuns, you can see that their life style is mostly nomadic or heavily influenced by it. I strongly suggest you to take a look at @Surenas comment, post #23.
 
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Dear Charon, I don't wanna be rude, but can you name those historians? I am a half azerbaijani Iranian and I respect turks. but the fact is pan turks have distorted the history and wrote many fake stuff and no one else believes or agrees with them. Nothing is wrong with wikipedia about it. all credible history books which they are written based on real historical documents, sources and facts, agree about it, and believe me that with the current world situation, no one wants to propaganda in favor of Iranians. Anyways, it does not matter that if Iranians are currently nomadic or not. but, if its important for you, FYI, Iran still has about 2-3% nomadic people. In eastern Iranian tribes, in which the most important ones are pashthuns, you can see that their life style is mostly nomadic or heavily influenced by it. I strongly suggest you to take a look at @Surenas comment, post #23.

The Pashtuns have culturally absolutely nothing to do with Scythians. The status of women was very high in the Scythian society and also comparable with the high status of women in Turkic or Mongol societies. Scythians were famous in the antiquity for their warrior women and the women equality just like the Turks and Mongols in the middle ages. I don't know if Pashtuns were too much influenced by Islam but their hardcore patriarchal society with the low status of women is not comparable with the culture of Scythians. The role of women is not the only difference between Pashtuns and Scythians but also the clothes and hats. The Persians called the Saka nomads as "those with pointed hats". Neither Ossetians nor Pashtuns wear similar hats like their assumed ancestors but Turkic people do it

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashlyk

I once spoke with a Iranologist. He believes that Scythians spoke mainly Eastern Iranian languages but he also said that the Turkic and Mongolic steppe nomads today are culturally the descendants of Scythians
 
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The limited clues we have direct us to that they were probably Iranians, but doesn't proves if they were entirely Iranian or not, forming federations or absorbing smaller or defeated tribes was a common custom in steppe nomads, there wasn't one nations but a a group of tribes united under one name, thats probably how remaining Iranian speaking nomads disappared after all.
 
The Pashtuns have culturally absolutely nothing to do with Scythians. The status of women was very high in the Scythian society and also comparable with the high status of women in Turkic or Mongol societies. Scythians were famous in the antiquity for their warrior women and the women equality just like the Turks and Mongols in the middle ages. I don't know if Pashtuns were too much influenced by Islam but their hardcore patriarchal society with the low status of women is not comparable with the culture of Scythians. The role of women is not the only difference between Pashtuns and Scythians but also the clothes and hats. The Persians called the Saka nomads as "those with pointed hats". Neither Ossetians nor Pashtuns wear similar hats like their assumed ancestors but Turkic people do it.

I don't see any similarities between Scythian women fighters and the role of women in Turkic/Mongol military warfare. Turkic/Mongol military culture was just as patriarchal as modern day Pashtuns are, not considering the fact that Pashtuns are influenced by Islamic culture now, which is patriarchal to begin with. You can't compare it to ancient history.

But from all cultures in the world, Iranic military culture has recorded the most amount of participating women fighters in ancient history. Persians had woman officers, Massagatae had women fighers, as well as the Sarmatians and Scythians. These people were all Iranian, culturally and linguistically. In Iran there is also a culture of female soldiers, but that has been countered by Islamic political influence at the time, but in the society overall these elements are clear.

Even today you can see that with the Kurds, where women are involved in all kinds of military functions.
 
In Turkic countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, the queen of Massagetae is sometimes claimed as "Turkic" by local pseudohistorians or Pan-Turkic nationalists, even revered as a national heroine. The given name Tomris has also become very popular in these countries in 20th and 21st century. To'marisning Aytgani (The Sayings of Tomyris) is a 1996 book of poetry by Uzbek poet Halima Xudoyberdiyeva
.




They fight both on horseback and on foot, neither method is strange to them

:
they use bows and lances, but their favourite weapon is the battle-axe. Their arms are all either of gold or brass
.

For their spear-points, and arrow-heads, and for their battle-axes, they make use of brass; for head-gear, belts, and girdles, of gold. So too with the caparison of their horses, they give them breastplates of brass, but employ gold about the reins, the bit, and the cheek-plates. They use neither iron nor silver, having none in their country; but they have brass and gold in abundance.

Now the Massagetae are said to be a great and warlike nation, dwelling eastward, toward the rising of the sun, beyond the river Araxes, and opposite the Issedones
.



I consider this to have been the fiercest battle between non-Greeks that there has ever been

.... They fought at close quarters for a long time, and neither side would give way, until eventually the Massagetae gained the upper hand.

Most of the Persian army was wiped out there, and Cyrus himself died too.


the Massagetes who cruelly wound their horses that they may drink their blood

, the Alans who break the ice and drink the waters of Maeotis' lake" (In Rufinem).

Procopius writes in History of the Wars Book III: The Vandalic War:[15] "the Massagetae whom they now call Huns" (XI. 37.), "there was a certain man among the Massagetae, well gifted with courage and strength of body, the leader of a few men; this man had the privilege handed down from his fathers and ancestors to be the first in all the Hunnic armies to attack the enemy" (XVIII. 54.).

Evagrius Scholasticus (Ecclesiastical History. Book 3. Ch. II.): "and in Thrace, by the inroads of the Huns, formerly known by the name of Massagetae, who crossed the Ister without opposition".[16]

Teophan the Byzantine depcits the Gökturks as the former Massagetae:

He wrote: East from Tanaid live Türks, in antiquity called Massagets. Persians in their language call them Kermikhions (Byzantian Historians. SPb., 1861, 492)

Asia in 323 BC and the location of the Massagetae:



Undoubtedly they are Turkics. First of all their culture and customs are Turkic.

they are nomads, fight on horse back use bows thats typical.

But drinking blood of their horses is the ultimate proof that's an ancient Turkic ritual/custum Hun/Gök and other Turks use to do that to. No other people than Turks do that.
 
Why did you intentionally left out the fact that the Massagatae were Iranians, and spoke an Iranian language?

Here you go;

The Massageteans or (Greek: Μασσαγέται, Massagetai; Latin: Massagetae) were an Iranian nomadic confederation in antiquity known primarily from the writings of Herodotus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae

The Massagetae of Herodotus were designated by the comprehensive name "Sakas" by the Persians, and it is believed by some scholars that the Saka Tigrakhauda or Peaked-capped Sakas were the Massagetae of Herodotus. In an article in Nomads of the Eurasian Steppes in the Early Iron Age, Leonid T. Yablonsky writes, "Some scholars are inclined to identify the Saka-Tigrakhauda of the ancient Persian inscriptions with the Massagetae of Herodotus and to place them east of the Caspian Sea" (Yablonsky 1995, 250).

Beyond his mythical suggestions of the origin of the Scyths and similar nomads, he was keen in noting another important and more eastern Iranian tribe called the Massagetae, whom he considered to be like the Scythians (Rawlinson 1928, 79).

Massagetae, another Iranian tribe who fought mainly on horseback, like the Scythians. The Massagetae are interesting because they appear to have maintained some ancient Iranian customs that may shed light on the status of women in Persian society under the Achaemenids.

books.google.nl/books?id=gOwL2wZtAH8C&pg=PA15&dq=massagetae+iranian&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=4NtJUt3CDKGr0QXt-oC4Bg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=massagetae%20iranian&f=false

The Massagetae were an Iranian people with territory to the north of the Oxus and east of the Royal Scythians.

books.google.nl/books?id=DMSuoVGV988C&pg=PA9&dq=massagetae+iranian&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=BNxJUq-MJLOy0AXnwoCQBg&ved=0CHYQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=massagetae%20iranian&f=false

Every academic source mentions that the Massagatae, as well as the Scythians and Sarmatians, were Iranic. They spoke no Turkic language, so how on earth could they have been Turkic? If so, how do you explain proto-Iranian religious elements within the culture of these people?

The modern day decedents of these people are the Ossetians, who are still genetically related to these people, and they still speak an Iranian language.

Turks are know to be falsificators of history. I've heard even heard Turks claiming Sumerians as one of them. Thats just pathetic.
 
I don't see any similarities between Scythian women fighters and the role of women in Turkic/Mongol military warfare. Turkic/Mongol military culture was just as patriarchal as modern day Pashtuns are, not considering the fact that Pashtuns are influenced by Islamic culture now, which is patriarchal to begin with. You can't compare it to ancient history.

But from all cultures in the world, Iranic military culture has recorded the most amount of participating women fighters in ancient history. Persians had woman officers, Massagatae had women fighers, as well as the Sarmatians and Scythians. These people were all Iranian, culturally and linguistically. In Iran there is also a culture of female soldiers, but that has been countered by Islamic political influence at the time, but in the society overall these elements are clear.

Even today you can see that with the Kurds, where women are involved in all kinds of military functions.

That Kurdish women are involved in millitary functions doesn't change the fact that honor killings seem to be a serious cultural misogynistic problem of Kurds. Here in Germany almost all honor killings are practiced by Kurds but it's us Turks who are seen as backward women hating Muslims because in German media all Kurds are portrayed as "Turks" just because they carry mostly the Turkish passport. I don't say that Turks never commit honor killings but it's rare compared to Kurds and the honor killing stronholds in Turkey are also mainly in Kurdish regions like Southeastern Anatolia. The culture of Honor killings are totally alien for Turkic peoples and Mongols but it seems to be very popular among Iranic Pashtuns and Kurds

Of course the society of Turks and Mongols was also patrichal just like the culture of Pashtuns and Scythians but it's wrong to say that Turks and Mongols hadn't women in military functions. We can easily say that women in the Mongol empire had the highest status in the society compared to other cultures in that time

Here are just some informnations about the role of women in Turkic and Mongol socities

Oghuz Turks:

Status within the family was based on age, gender, relationships by blood, or marriageability. Males as well as females were active in society, yet men were the backbones of leadership and organization. According to the Book of Dede Korkut which demonstrates the culture of the Oghuz Turks, women were "expert horse riders, archers, and athletes." The elders were respected as repositories of both "secular and spiritual wisdom."

The famous Arab traveler and Muslim scholar Ibn Fadlan about the Oghuz Turkic women:

"Their women do not cover from their men and from others of them, and also a woman does not cover anything of her body from anybody of the people. And really, in one of the days we stopped at a man of theirs and sat down, and the wife of this person sat together with us. And, talking to us, she opened her "fardj" and scratched it while we looked at her. Then we closed our faces and said: "My God, Forgive me!" The husband of hers laughed and said to the translator: "Tell them, - we open it in your presence and you see it, and she protects it so, that there is no access to it. It is better, than if she would cover it and (at the same time) would concede it to somebody".

The role of Mongol women:

Mongolian women traditionally perceived themselves to have a higher social status than women in many other Asian societies, but were still subordinate to men. Many were herdswomen and mothers, but during the Middle Ages some served as warriors or as members of the Khuriltai, a Mongolian governmental council. Some women even served in commanding roles during military operations. Their status in the active field, however, may have declined with the rise of Buddhist and after the Manchu victory.

Compared to other civilizations, Mongolian women had the power to influence society. Even though men were dominant in society, many turned to women in their lives for advice. While developing organizations within the Mongol Empire, Genghis Khan asked for assistance from his mother. He honored the advice women in his life offered. Genghis Khan permitted his wives to sit with him and encouraged them to voice their opinions. Because of their help, Genghis was able to choose his successor.

Women in Turkmenistan

The role of women in Turkmenistan has never conformed to Western stereotypes about Muslim women.[3] Although a division of labor exists and women usually are not visible actors in political affairs outside the home, Turkmen women have never worn a veil similar to that of the women of some of its neighboring countries.[3] As Turkmenistan is a tribal nation, customs regarding women can vary within the country: for example, women in the eastern part of the country are permitted to drink some alcohol whereas women who live in the central portion of the country, particularly those of the Tekke tribe, are not permitted to imbibe alcohol. Most women possess a host of highly specialized skills and crafts, especially those connected with the household and its maintenance

Even if the Scythians had only spoke Eastern Iranian languages which is very doubtful. That doesn't change the fact that the Sakas of Central Asia took a great part on the ethnogenesis of modern Turkic peoples. Scythians don't live further in Persians or Kurds, they live further in Turkic peoples like Kazakhs, Turkmens, Uzbeks, Uyghurs and Kyrgyz. The Turkic peoples haven't exterminated the Scythians when they established empires and started to dominate Central Asia. They mixed with Scythians and assimilated them. It's not a coincedince that Scythians suddenly disappeared from Central Asia in world history when the Türks appeared in the 6th century. They were absorbed and linguistically assimilated by Turks. Iranic peoples don't give their daughters the name Tomris but Turkic peoples do it
 
She was a warrior princess thats definately pre-Islamic Turkic culture.

What the hell are these maniacs talking about Yezidi kurds even today are stoning their women to death.

On the other hand Turkics used to have warrior princeses and queens while other nations used to treat their women as dirt.
 
@Surenas

believe me women fighters is not a part of kurdish culture :)

kurdish women involved in fighting are members of pkk movement which has in fact nothing to do with kurd culture it was founded to struggle against it, to take (kurds) away from their backwqrd culture amd tribalism in the first place..


If you look into pkk propaganda it is 99,9% bashing kurd culture, it is against tribalism and pro-women rights so why the need? is it because kurds have equality between men women?
 
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Even if the Scythians had only spoke Eastern Iranian languages which is very doubtful. That doesn't change the fact that the Sakas of Central Asia took a great part on the ethnogenesis of modern Turkic peoples. Scythians don't live further in Persians or Kurds, they live further in Turkic peoples like Kazakhs, Turkmens, Uzbeks, Uyghurs and Kyrgyz. The Turkic peoples haven't exterminated the Scythians when they established empires and started to dominate Central Asia. They mixed with Scythians and assimilated them. It's not a coincedince that Scythians suddenly disappeared from Central Asia in world history when the Türks appeared in the 6th century. They were absorbed and linguistically assimilated by Turks. Iranic peoples don't give their daughters the name Tomris but Turkic peoples do it

That is not doubtful. Ossetians speak an Iranian language which is still related to Scythian language. That alone should be enough to conclude that Scythians were Iranic, and that their sole decedents are Iranians. Scythians were part of the Persian Empire and they looked like other Iranian people within the empire.

The reason why Tomyris is a popular name in Turkmenistan is because these people took the original history of these countries over. In fact, many Turks uses Iranian names.

I think you guys have all heard of names in your country that are of Persian origins: Ferhat, Gul, Bahar, Derya, Didem, Rüstem, Cemşit, Can, Bahram, and many more.
 
That is not doubtful. Ossetians speak an Iranian language which is still related to Scythian language. That alone should be enough to conclude that Scythians were Iranic, and that their sole decedents are Iranians. Scythians were part of the Persian Empire and they looked like other Iranian people within the empire.

The reason why Tomyris is a popular name in Turkmenistan is because these people took the original history of these countries over. In fact, many Turks uses Iranian names.

I think you guys have all heard of names in your country that are of Persian origins: Ferhat, Gul, Bahar, Derya, Didem, Rüstem, Cemşit, Can, Bahram, and many more.

Ossetians are culturally and genetically mainly native Caucasians. The Ossetian language itself is full of Turkic and Caucasian words. Yeah but Tomris is not only popular in Turkmenistan but also in almost all Turkic countries whereas there is no Iranic group who name their daughters Tomyris.
 
Ossetians are culturally and genetically mainly native Caucasians who experienced a language shift through Iranians. The Ossetian language itself is full of Turkic and Caucasian words

Ossetians are genetically still connected to Iranians. Here, I'll quote:

Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups. It is thus suggested that that there is a common origin of Ossetians from Iran, followed by subsequent male-mediated migrations from their Caucasian neighbours

Their language is grammatically Iranian, and does not have a significant amount of Turkic words in it. In contrast to Caucasian influence. They call their language 'Iron' which translates into 'Iran'.

Here:

youtube.com/watch?v=BX1pBXL787k

It even sounds Kurdish in some occasions.
 
Yeah but Tomris is not only popular in Turkmenistan but also in almost all Turkic countries whereas there is no Iranic group who name their daughters Tomyris.

Tomyris is an Persian name: تهم*رییش‎ Tahm-Rayiš. If Turks are proud to give their daughters Persian names, I've no problems with that.

Tomyris and Massagataes were living in Central-Asia long before Turks migrated to it.
 
Ossetians are genetically still connected to Iranians. Here, I'll quote:



Their language is grammatically Iranian, and does not have a significant amount of Turkic words in it. In contrast to Caucasian influence. They call their language 'Iron' which translates into 'Iran'.

Here:

youtube.com/watch?v=BX1pBXL787k

It even sounds Kurdish in some occasions.

Genetics have also proved that the mtDNA of ancient Sarmatian warrior women is the closest to modern Turkic Kazakh women:

Ancient DNA of 13 Sarmatian remains from Pokrovka kurgan burials in the southern Ural steppes along the Kazakhstan and Russian border was extracted for comparative analysis. Most of the mitochondrial haplogroups determined were of western Eurasian origin, while only a few were of "central/east Asian Haplotype which is found among the Turkic speaking nomadic people. This Haplotype is almost (one base pair missing) identical with the Haplotype of the (Kazakh) women from western Mongolia
 
Genetics have also proved that the mtDNA of ancient Sarmatian warrior women is the closest to modern Turkic Kazakh women:

Ancient DNA of 13 Sarmatian remains from Pokrovka kurgan burials in the southern Ural steppes along the Kazakhstan and Russian border was extracted for comparative analysis. Most of the mitochondrial haplogroups determined were of western Eurasian origin, while only a few were of "central/east Asian Haplotype which is found among the Turkic speaking nomadic people. This Haplotype is almost (one base pair missing) identical with the Haplotype of the (Kazakh) women from western Mongolia

But Scythians and other Iranian groups had Caucasian features, while the original Turks had Mongoloid features. There seems to be a contradiction in this. But even if these Iranian groups mixed with Turkish groups, its wrong to name these original Iranian groups Turkic. It would be more correct to state that the only linguistic decedents of the Sarmatians are the Ossetians, while the rest merged into all kinds of ethnic groups: Slavs, Turkic, etc.

They did not spoke an Turkic language, so them being Turkic is utterly wrong.
 

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