What's new

Cyrus the Great was defeated and killed by a women

Charon

FULL MEMBER
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
140
Reaction score
0
I was actually very surprised when I read that the great Cyrus was defeated and killed by a women named Tomyris.

Here are some information about the queen of the Massagetae Tomyris:

Tomyris /ˈtoʊmɨrɪs/, from the Persian: تهم*رییش‎ Tahm-Rayiš,[1] was a queen who reigned over the Massagetae, a pastoral-nomadic Iranian people[2][3][4][5] of Central Asia east of the Caspian Sea, in approximately 530 BC.

The names of Tomyris and her son, Spargapises, who was the head of her army, are of Iranian[1] origins. Since the historians who first wrote of her were Greek, the Hellenic form of her name is used most frequently.

Many Greek historians recorded that she "defeated and killed" the Persian emperor Cyrus the Great during his invasion and attempted conquest of her country. Herodotus, who lived from approximately 484 to 425 BC, is the earliest of the classical writers to give an account of her career, writing almost one hundred years later. Her history was well known and became legendary. Strabo, Polyaenus, Cassiodorus, and Jordanes (in De origine actibusque Getarum, The Origin and Deeds of the Goths) also wrote of her.[6]

According to the accounts of Greek historians, Cyrus was victorious in his initial assault on the Massagetae. His advisers suggested laying a trap for the pursuing Scythians: the Persians left behind them an apparently abandoned camp, containing a rich supply of wine. The pastoral Scythians were not used to drinking wine—"their favored intoxicants were hashish and fermented mare's milk"[7]—and they drank themselves into a stupor. The Persians attacked while their opponents were incapacitated, defeating the Massagetae forces, and capturing Tomyris' son, Spargapises, the general of her army. Of the one third of the Massagetae forces that fought, there were more captured than killed. According to Herodotus, Spargagises coaxed by Cyrus into removing his bonds, thus allowing him to commit suicide while in Persian captivity.[8]

Tomyris sent a message to Cyrus denouncing his treachery, and with all her forces, challenged him to a second battle. In the fight that ensued, the Massagetae got the upper hand, and the Persians were defeated with high casualties. Cyrus was killed and Tomyris had his corpse beheaded and then crucified,[9] and shoved his head into a wineskin filled with human blood. She was reportedly quoted as saying, "I warned you that I would quench your thirst for blood, and so I shall"[10][11] (Hdt 1.214)[8]

Tomyris legacy:

Eustache Deschamps added Tomyris to his poetry as one of the nine Female Worthies in the late 14th century

The name "Tomyris" also has been adopted into zoological taxonomy, for the tomyris species-group of Central Asian Lepidoptera.

In Turkic countries like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan, the queen of Massagetae is sometimes claimed as "Turkic" by local pseudohistorians or Pan-Turkic nationalists, even revered as a national heroine. The given name Tomris has also become very popular in these countries in 20th and 21st century. To'marisning Aytgani (The Sayings of Tomyris) is a 1996 book of poetry by Uzbek poet Halima Xudoyberdiyeva.

Tomyris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here are some informations about the Massagetae:

Herodotus about the Massagetae:

[1.215] In their dress and mode of living the Massagetae resemble the Scythians. They fight both on horseback and on foot, neither method is strange to them: they use bows and lances, but their favourite weapon is the battle-axe. Their arms are all either of gold or brass. For their spear-points, and arrow-heads, and for their battle-axes, they make use of brass; for head-gear, belts, and girdles, of gold. So too with the caparison of their horses, they give them breastplates of brass, but employ gold about the reins, the bit, and the cheek-plates. They use neither iron nor silver, having none in their country; but they have brass and gold in abundance.

[1.201] When Cyrus had achieved the conquest of the Babylonians, he conceived the desire of bringing the Massagetae under his dominion. Now the Massagetae are said to be a great and warlike nation, dwelling eastward, toward the rising of the sun, beyond the river Araxes, and opposite the Issedones. By many they are regarded as a Scythian race.

[1.211] Cyrus advanced a day's journey into Massagetan territory from the Araxes... Many of the Massagetae were killed, but even more taken prisoner, including Queen Tomyris's son, who was commander of the army and whose name was Spargapises.

[1.214] Tomyris mustered all her forces and engaged Cyrus in battle. I consider this to have been the fiercest battle between non-Greeks that there has ever been.... They fought at close quarters for a long time, and neither side would give way, until eventually the Massagetae gained the upper hand. Most of the Persian army was wiped out there, and Cyrus himself died too.

What other scholars and historians wrote about the Massagetae:

Ammianus Marcellinus considered the Alans to be the former Massagetae.[14] At the close of the 4th century CE, Claudian (the court poet of Emperor Honorius and Stilicho) wrote of Alans and Massagetae in the same breath: "the Massagetes who cruelly wound their horses that they may drink their blood, the Alans who break the ice and drink the waters of Maeotis' lake" (In Rufinem).

Procopius writes in History of the Wars Book III: The Vandalic War:[15] "the Massagetae whom they now call Huns" (XI. 37.), "there was a certain man among the Massagetae, well gifted with courage and strength of body, the leader of a few men; this man had the privilege handed down from his fathers and ancestors to be the first in all the Hunnic armies to attack the enemy" (XVIII. 54.).

Evagrius Scholasticus (Ecclesiastical History. Book 3. Ch. II.): "and in Thrace, by the inroads of the Huns, formerly known by the name of Massagetae, who crossed the Ister without opposition".[16]

Teophan the Byzantine depcits the Gökturks as the former Massagetae:

He wrote: East from Tanaid live Türks, in antiquity called Massagets. Persians in their language call them Kermikhions (Byzantian Historians. SPb., 1861, 492)

Asia in 323 BC and the location of the Massagetae:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Asia_323bc.jpg
 
.
That is only one of the theories about his death. But at least the woman was Iranic too. Iranic women have always been involved in warfare. You could even see that today with the Kurds.
 
.
I always wondered why there wasn't a movie made about Cyrus the Great. If not Hollywood at least Iran should make a movie with the cooperation of another major country like China or India.
 
.
That is only one of the theories about his death. But at least the woman was Iranic too. Iranic women have always been involved in warfare. You could even see that today with the Kurds.

Were the Massagetae and other Scythians really fully Iranic? We have almost not language material about the ancient Scythians but Wikipedia portays it strangely as a fact that Scythians only spoke Eastern Iranian language. I really doubt that and I'm not a pan-Turanist. It can't be a coincidence when Byzantine sources used the name "Scythian" in reference to twelfe different Turkic peoples between 400 CE and the 16th century. The Scythians were definitely a mixed group in my eyes with also many Turkic and Slavic elements
 
.
This is another Herodotus antics, to pull the Iranic ruler just from greatness only to ancient hellenic persian rivalry and prejudice nothing else......I believe!!

If anyone read his naratives of history closely he stated a story somewhere about a greco/hellecnic intellectuals named "Solon" who happens to be in a Lydian court under persian King "Crocess" as a tourist. Lydian empire were at their zeineth at that time, Corcess asked solon who he thinks is the fortunest/happiest person on earth? expecting Solon undoubtly might reply King Crocess himself but Solon called differnent person as happiest one by one but Crocess.

At last Corcess asked rather anguishly why he doesn't believe in him as a fortunest/happiest person on earth? On that Solon replied, all those name i presented as fortunest and hppiest are only bcz they not only live happily in their entire life but die too in a best of circumstances and environment and their funeral took place as per their stautre as well. You could be happiest and fortunest if you end resembles what i stated.........Corcess was murdered by another king.

Cyrus was great no one denies it not even Herodotus in his piece of history but sure this prejudice and Hellenic historian could try to shorten his greatness by throwing Cyrus end/death with fog and humiliation.
 
.
Were the Massagetae and other Scythians really fully Iranic? We have almost not language material about the ancient Scythians but Wikipedia portays it strangely as a fact that Scythians only spoke Eastern Iranian language. I really doubt that and I'm not a pan-Turanist. It can't be a coincidence when Byzantine sources used the name "Scythian" in reference to twelfe different Turkic peoples between 400 CE and the 16th century. The Scythians were definitely a mixed group in my eyes with also many Turkic and Slavic elements
Actually, Scythians are ancestors of east iranian tribes, pashthuns, tajiks and maybe baluchs. schthians are called soka in persian, and many of researchers believe that the the name "Sistan" has been actually sakestan or sokastan. they have been mentioned in a complete chapter of herodotus book as Iranian tribes
 
.
Actually, Scythians are ancestors of east iranian tribes, pashthuns, tajiks and maybe baluchs. schthians are called soka in persian, and many of researchers believe that the the name "Sistan" has been actually sakestan or sokastan. they have been mentioned in a complete chapter of herodotus book as Iranian tribes

Tajiks don't speak an Eastern Iranian language and they're mainly the descendants of Sogdians anyway. Pashtuns don't seem to have a similar culture like ancient Scythians but nomadic Turkic peoples like Kazakhs and Kyrgyz have almost the same culture like Scythians. Scythians have never worn turbans like Pashtuns but pointed hats like Kazakhs and Kyrgyz today.
 
.
Tajiks don't speak an Eastern Iranian language and they're mainly the descendants of Sogdians anyway. Pashtuns don't seem to have a similar culture like ancient Scythians but nomadic Turkic peoples like Kazakhs and Kyrgyz have almost the same culture like Scythians. Scythians have never worn turbans like Pashtuns but pointed hats like Kazakhs and Kyrgyz today.
about tajiks, you need to note that spoken language is not related to genetics or where some people are from. there are a lot of examples showing this. like mazandarani and gilanis in Iran who their language is close to persian but they are genetically more close to georgians or many of arab countries who speak arabic but they are not actually arab. Anyway, Soghdians are one of many of eastern Iranian tribes. I did not get why you think that Pashthuns are not related to Schythians. Genetic studies has shown that kyrgyz and turkmen and uzbeks are very close to east Iranians. R1a1 which is one of the gene markers of iranians is very common between these three groups. actually, we can say that these three groups are a mixture of east Iranians and turkic and mongoloid tribes. btw, I don't know about kazakhs
 
.
Were the Massagetae and other Scythians really fully Iranic? We have almost not language material about the ancient Scythians but Wikipedia portays it strangely as a fact that Scythians only spoke Eastern Iranian language. I really doubt that and I'm not a pan-Turanist. It can't be a coincidence when Byzantine sources used the name "Scythian" in reference to twelfe different Turkic peoples between 400 CE and the 16th century. The Scythians were definitely a mixed group in my eyes with also many Turkic and Slavic elements

Scythians, Sarmatians and Massagates were completely Iranic, and had nothing to do with Turkic, at least not in the age of Cyrus the Great. In fact, if you look at the language, religion and phenotype of Scythians (Saka), you'll see that bear a lot of similarities with other Iranic people like the Persians. The religion of Scythians in fact was heavily similar to the religion of the Persians, and the cast priest of the Scythians was similar to the cast priest of the Medians (Magi):

These images of Scythians (Saka) have been found on the walls of Persepolis:

Scythian.jpg


Saka.jpg


Skudrian.jpg


Persians:

3719571205_eb02463182_z.jpg
 
.
about tajiks, you need to note that spoken language is not related to genetics or where some people are from. there are a lot of examples showing this. like mazandarani and gilanis in Iran who their language is close to persian but they are genetically more close to georgians or many of arab countries who speak arabic but they are not actually arab. Anyway, Soghdians are one of many of eastern Iranian tribes. I did not get why you think that Pashthuns are not related to Schythians. Genetic studies has shown that kyrgyz and turkmen and uzbeks are very close to east Iranians. R1a1 which is one of the gene markers of iranians is very common between these three groups. actually, we can say that these three groups are a mixture of east Iranians and turkic and mongoloid tribes. btw, I don't know about kazakhs

Of course the Turkic peoples in Central Asia a mainly a mixture between Scythians, Turkics and Mongols but I hope you know that haplogroups make only 1 % of your genes. Haplogroups only tell you from where your paternal/maternal ancestors came from 20.000 years ago. Autosomal DNA reveals your real genetical code and the Kygryz are genetically not related to Tajiks or Pashtuns in Autosomal DNA.

I meant culturally. Pashtuns don't seem to be culturally related to Scythians. Nomadic Turkic peoples wear the same hats and dresses like Scythians 10.000 years ago but Pashtuns seem to have completely different culture than Scythians
 
.
I meant culturally. Pashtuns don't seem to be culturally related to Scythians. Nomadic Turkic peoples wear the same hats and dresses like Scythians 10.000 years ago but Pashtuns seem to have completely different culture than Scythians

Modern Turkic people have nothing in common with the ancient Iranic tribes like the Scythians or Alans. In fact, the only people who are still considered to be the ancestors of these people are the Ossetians, who speak an Iranian language and have a mtDNA that is more similar with Iranian groups than with Caucasian groups.
 
.
Scythians, Sarmatians and Massagates were completely Iranic, and had nothing to do with Turkic, at least not in the age of Cyrus the Great. In fact, if you look at the language, religion and phenotype of Scythians (Saka), you'll see that bear a lot of similarities with other Iranic people like the Persians. The religion of Scythians in fact was heavily similar to the religion of the Persians, and the cast priest of the Scythians was similar to the cast priest of the Medians (Magi):

These images of Scythians (Saka) have been found on the walls of Persepolis:

Scythian.jpg


Saka.jpg


Skudrian.jpg


Persians:

3719571205_eb02463182_z.jpg

Scythians have probably mixed themselves with the Turkic peoples as the Turkic peoples today have actually the same culture like the formely Scythians . Nomadic Turkic peoples like Kazakhs or Kyrgyz wear those same pointed hats today like the Scythian have worn it. Steppe nomads like Scythians had a completely different culture and a completely different life style than the sedentary Persians and that's also the reason why Persians were always in war with Scythians.
 
.
Of course the Turkic peoples in Central Asia a mainly a mixture between Scythians, Turkics and Mongols but I hope you know that haplogroups make only 1 % of your genes. Haplogroups only tell you from where your paternal/maternal ancestors came from 20.000 years ago. Autosomal DNA reveals your real genetical code and the Kygryz are genetically not related to Tajiks or Pashtuns in Autosomal DNA.

I meant culturally. Pashtuns don't seem to be culturally related to Scythians. Nomadic Turkic peoples wear the same hats and dresses like Scythians 10.000 years ago but Pashtuns seem to have completely different culture than Scythians
yes, haplogroups are a measure that just roughly show ancestors of a group of people. but it gives some ideas though.
Unfortunately, we don't know enough information about culture of Scythians. so we cannot compare them with pashthuns . and we cannot just rely on hat or other clothing and conclude about them. because clothing are something that changes a lot with time. you can say exactly the same thing about Iranians. their current clothing is not even close to thousands of years ago. actually what we can be sure about that, are some written documents by herodotus and some rough genetic estimates that show both scythians and pashthuns belong to east Iranian tribes.
 
.
Scythians have probably mixed themselves with the Turkic peoples as the Turkic peoples today have actually the same culture like the formely Scythians . Nomadic Turkic peoples like Kazakhs or Kyrgyz wear those same pointed hats today like the Scythian have worn it. Steppe nomads like Scythians had a completely different culture and a completely different life style than the sedentary Persians and that's also the reason why Persians were always in war with Scythians.

I can't see the similarities in dress between Kazakhs/Kyrgyz and Scythians, nor any physical similarities. If you look at the photos of Scythians I posted, there isn't any Mongoloid/Turkic element in their phenotype. Scythians did not have a completely different culture. Persians may had become sedentary, but many (perhaps most) of the Persians during the Achaemenids were still nomads.

Scythians were not only linguistically Iranian (or Iranic), but also religiously and to some extent socially. We can find common religious elements in Scythian religion and religions of other Iranian people, like the Persians, who practiced Zoroastrianism at that time, and before that practiced a proto-Iranian religion. The Persian (or Median) religious caste of priests called the 'Magi' is almost comparable to the Scythian religious caste of priests called the 'Enarei'. The same counts for the practice of horse sacrifice, nomadic life and mythology. So the claim that Scythians are only linguistically Iranian is not only incorrect, but also misleading, as there are many cultural similarities between the various Iranian groups of that time. The role of women in military warfare is, for instance, another example.
 
.
Modern Turkic people have nothing in common with the ancient Iranic tribes like the Scythians or Alans. In fact, the only people who are still considered to be the ancestors of these people are the Ossetians, who speak an Iranian language and have a mtDNA that is more similar with Iranian groups than with Caucasian groups.

I often read about the culture of ancient Turks, Scythians and Mongols and those people have/had the same steppe nomadic life style. You just need to read a book about the culture of ancient Scythians and compare it with the culture of nomadic Turks and Mongols. It's almost the same.
 
.
Back
Top Bottom