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CRPF asks govt to replace Insas guns with AK rifles

The army cannot continue with the SLR. I won't be surprised if the SLR ammo was imported but army urgently needed a replacement. AK-47s were purchased from Romania but some buffoon in DRDO/OFB must have suggested an indigenous rifle and the INSAS took place. The army will need something to fight with so they HAD to place an order. Army ordered AKs because they needed a reliable weapon in addition to the joke that is INSAS.

The INSAS LMG is another joke from OFB. In 2014 India is using a magazine fed Light Machine Gun. For the love of God the last time a magagine fed machine was used it was by the Japanese in WW2. Or you can add the Bren by the British at the same era.

LMG are area weapons used to provide covering fire for home troops and suppressing fire against the enemy. The Indian Bren gun, though magazine fed atleast fires a 7.62 round. The INSAS LMG on the other hand fires a 5.56 round, is fed with a 30 round magazine instead of the 100 round chain-link ammo which is the world standard for LMG and has absolutely no room for any scopes. That weapon is practically useless at night. Weight of 7.62 mm Bren is 8.6 kg and weight of 5.56 mm INSAS LMG is 6.2 kg. The INSAS weapons are unnecessarily heavy which puts unwanted pressure on the soldiers manning them.

Army uses the Dragunov sniper rifle in marksman role. Who told you that a 5.56 mm INSAS is used in DM roles? LOL! A DM is an ad hoc sniper attached to an army platoon to take out targets at long range. Why would a squad carrying INSAS rifles use an INSAS rifle as a sniper weapon? Makes no sense at all. The Tavor has an effective range of 500 meters and the INSAS has a range of 400 meters.

Why would a weapon with less range be used to shoot targets at long range? The army knows better that's why all units in hot zones are equipped with Tavor/AK and the DM rifle is the Dragunov not the INSAS.

In counter insurgency you do not use semi automatic fire. Counter insurgency operations are ambush type warfare where engagements with the enemy are at very short-range. That's why compact weapons like MP5 are used for easy maneuvering. In CQC firepower means much more than accuracy. Semi automatic mode does not give you superior firepower, full auto mode does that.

The Carl seiss sight is an extremely expensive one and would be more expensive than the weapon itself. I doubt if every INSAS would be equipped with the Carl Seiss sight.

The ordinary jawan in the army deserves much better than the garbage known as INSAS rifle. It is heavy, bulky, lacks firepower, cannot carry enough ammo and is a comparatively weak round than 7.62. Tavor also fires 5.56 but it has a 30 round mag as standard, is lighter, compact, accurate and can go full auto in emergencies.

Indian Army learned the hardway,the shortcomings of SLR during Op Pawan. The result of Army's search for a replacement is what resulted in INSAS. Like any other weapon,INSAS was crafted acording to Army's requirement,which was taken into service after long trials.

The SLR ammo is produced in the country and is not imported.

Regarding the Mag fed INSAS LMG,again it was the Army's choice. IA has prefered Mag fed LMG for general use. This allowed the barrel to cool down, and allowed easier carrying of Magazines. OFB did make a box fed INSAS LMG which was shown in several Def Expos.
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/guns.jpg
OFB has been making belt fed Machne guns for ages,yet army chose INSAS LMGs with Magazine feed. Not Just the Army,Navy also prefers Mag fed INSAS LMG.
And INSAS Rifles and LMGs with Telescopic and Night/Thermal sights are used by Army and BSF.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v66snxW1UxE/TbglCZ_9u5I/AAAAAAAACLI/tvcdkeZ90bY/s1600/garud+sniper+2.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6727/po11y.jpg
OFB made FMJ 5.56X45MM rounds have a mass of 4.16 gm with steel core,suited for penetration of BPJs.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img547/2613/dsc02351m.jpg
INSAS is cheap,easy to use and maintain (an INSAS can be field stripped,cleaned and assembled into firing position in less than 50 sec,guys even do it blind folded),it is accurate and has less recoil and flash.
 
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INSAS with Telescopic sight
8tZRn.jpg
 
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Indian Army learned the hardway,the shortcomings of SLR during Op Pawan. The result of Army's search for a replacement is what resulted in INSAS. Like any other weapon,INSAS was crafted acording to Army's requirement,which was taken into service after long trials.

The SLR ammo is produced in the country and is not imported.

Regarding the Mag fed INSAS LMG,again it was the Army's choice. IA has prefered Mag fed LMG for general use. This allowed the Magazine to cool down, and allowed easier carrying of Magazines. OFB did make a box fed INSAS LMG which was shown in several Def Expos.
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/guns.jpg
OFB has been making belt fed Machne guns for ages,yet army chose INSAS LMGs with Magazine feed. Not Just the Army,Navy also prefers Mag fed INSAS LMG.
And INSAS Rifles and LMGs with Telescopic and Night/Thermal sights are used by Army and BSF.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v66snxW1UxE/TbglCZ_9u5I/AAAAAAAACLI/tvcdkeZ90bY/s1600/garud+sniper+2.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/6727/po11y.jpg
OFB made FMJ 5.56X45MM rounds have a mass of 4.16 gm with steel core,suited for penetration of BPJs.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img547/2613/dsc02351m.jpg
INSAS is cheap,easy to use and maintain (an INSAS can be field stripped,cleaned and assembled into firing position in less than 50 sec,guys even do it blind folded),it is accurate and has less recoil and flash.

The SLR in itself is not a bad weapon. Honestly speaking in the conventional fighting style where lines of infantry soliders face each other a heavy round that can go long range made good sense. The emphasis was on long-range accuracy not automatic firepower. WW2 changed all that during the CQ battles in urban spaces.

Modern conflicts like counter-terror are also close quarter battles in urban or very tight spaces. An MP5 with 30 rounds on full auto will be more lethal than a 7.62 x 51 mm SLR. That was the logic behind the evolution of the 5.56 mm NATO round. Light-weight, accurate and more to carry to war. That's why all 5.56 mm rifles have the option for full automatic fire as well. The requirements were set down in 1980 when Kashmir was not hot, by the time the rifles arrived IA was learning the hard way the importance of auto fire in CQ combat situations.

The US SAW namely the Minimi carries a 200 round 5.56 x 45 mm magazine. One magazine chambered to the SAW and another magazine strapped to the soldier will mean 400 rounds. How many 30 round magazines will an Indian soldier carry with him? And if he keeps changing the magazine then what will happen to the idea of providing suppression fire?

Magazines don't heat up, the barrel does. That's why SAW operators are always more than one and there is always more than one SAW team in a platoon/ patrol. Soldiers are trained to replace heated barrels in less than a minute on the battlefield.

No rifle on earth can be cheaper, more rugged and tough-as-nails like the AK-47. You bury it inside a water pit, pull it out after a year. It's all rusted and old but it will still fire like new. There are videos where a burning AK-47 is accurately firing out its rounds. That rifle is not a weapon, its Divyastra.
 
The SLR in itself is not a bad weapon. Honestly speaking in the conventional fighting style where lines of infantry soliders face each other a heavy round that can go long range made good sense. The emphasis was on long-range accuracy not automatic firepower. WW2 changed all that during the CQ battles in urban spaces.

Modern conflicts like counter-terror are also close quarter battles in urban or very tight spaces. An MP5 with 30 rounds on full auto will be more lethal than a 7.62 x 51 mm SLR. That was the logic behind the evolution of the 5.56 mm NATO round. Light-weight, accurate and more to carry to war. That's why all 5.56 mm rifles have the option for full automatic fire as well. The requirements were set down in 1980 when Kashmir was not hot, by the time the rifles arrived IA was learning the hard way the importance of auto fire in CQ combat situations.

The US SAW namely the Minimi carries a 200 round 5.56 x 45 mm magazine. One magazine chambered to the SAW and another magazine strapped to the soldier will mean 400 rounds. How many 30 round magazines will an Indian soldier carry with him? And if he keeps changing the magazine then what will happen to the idea of providing suppression fire?

Magazines don't heat up, the barrel does. That's why SAW operators are always more than one and there is always more than one SAW team in a platoon/ patrol. Soldiers are trained to replace heated barrels in less than a minute on the battlefield.

No rifle on earth can be cheaper, more rugged and tough-as-nails like the AK-47. You bury it inside a water pit, pull it out after a year. It's all rusted and old but it will still fire like new. There are videos where a burning AK-47 is accurately firing out its rounds. That rifle is not a weapon, its Divyastra.

Every army has its own style or doctrines. IA has been using Mag fed LMGs for years. IA has their own effective ways of using the LMGs.
/*Cross posting from another forum-Credits to Ray of ****/
***The LMG teams carries its ammunition.
Further, the rest of LMG ammunition in
magazines is distributed ammunition
amongst the riflemen of the section.
On coming under fire, the riflemen (or
Rifle Group) take position to 'fix the enemy'. During this period a team
member of the LMG Group runs to each
rifleman carrying the extra magazines
and brings it to the LMG Group. The
LMG Group gives fire support and the
Rifle Group starts it manoeuvre and attacks the enemy at the objective.
If one had belt fed ammunition for
LMGs , as is for the MMG, the
ammunition distributed would be in
belt boxes. Carrying a belt box in
hand would restrict the soldier from doing his primary task. However, if the
LMG ammunition was being carried in
magazines, it would be kept in the
Scale B and the rifleman would be able
to perform the primary task, even on
the move. The foreseeable terrain in which they
would have to fight their battles
during the Cold War did not
contemplate mountains or
footslogging since the operation
terrain was the plains and built up area well connected by roads and
subsidiary roads. Therefore,
manpacked combat was not their
prime concern and hence their
weapons are designed to suit their op
requirement. It is a different kettle of fish for them,
now that they are in the mountains of
Afghanistan.
If you visit ARRSE (the unofficial British
Army website), you will get some idea
of what they are doing!***
SLR and Ak 47 are good rifles in their own ways,but have their own share of shortcomings. Same goes for INSAS. INSAS has fit perfectly to what Indian Armed Forces wanted for a standard issue rifle. INSAS family will serve India for years more.
 
My bad. I stand corrected regarding the AF and navy numbers. Though it is still hard for me to think that the army alone has over 1 million troops. But the original point still stands which was that CRPF does not have the same numbers as the army.

Brother nobody said CRPF has same number as Army, what I said is entire paramlitary personnel number is approximately equal to Army. But my references was about budget allocation. If you see it propotionately
their is huge difference. Well its absolutely out of topic and my apologies for bringing it up. Lets not discuss it more. Army fans will go nuts

Btw on topic Tavor is one of the worst rifle ever aquired, its mere show off.

I am damn sure that not one more of it will be aquired.
1- Has serious problem of jamming with slightest of obstruction on round ejector.
2- Red dot target seeker has too much bubbling, so aiming is difficult.
3- Small barrel leads to missing of target.
4- Most importantly its ejector is made of carbon fibre. Which melts and break by continuous fire. Happened several time with my team during range fire.
5- Carbon fibre body makes it more vulnerable to wear and tear, hence not suitable for Indian conditions.
6- Foresight is not adjustable therefore not zeroing is very difficult.
7- Small barrel lead to extremely loud firing sound. Its creates concentration problem
 
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Brother nobody said CRPF has same number as Army, what I said is entire paramlitary personnel number is approximately equal to Army. But my references was about budget allocation. If you see it propotionately
their is huge difference. Well its absolutely out of topic and my apologies for bringing it up. Lets not discuss it more. Army fans will go nuts

Btw on topic

I am damn sure that not one more of it will be aquired.
1- Has serious problem of jamming with slightest of obstruction on round ejector.
2- Red dot target seeker has too much bubbling, so aiming is difficult.
3- Small barrel leads to missing of target.
4- Most importantly its ejector is made of carbon fibre. Which melts and break by continuous fire. Happened several time with my team during range fire.
5- Carbon fibre body makes it more vulnerable to wear and tear, hence not suitable for Indian conditions.
6- Foresight is not adjustable therefore not zeroing is very difficult.
7- Small barrel lead to extremely loud firing sound. Its creates concentration problem

You are talking about the TAR 21 Tavor,right vk bro??
 
Brother nobody said CRPF has same number as Army, what I said is entire paramlitary personnel number is approximately equal to Army. But my references was about budget allocation. If you see it propotionately
their is huge difference. Well its absolutely out of topic and my apologies for bringing it up. Lets not discuss it more. Army fans will go nuts

Btw on topic

I am damn sure that not one more of it will be aquired.
1- Has serious problem of jamming with slightest of obstruction on round ejector.
2- Red dot target seeker has too much bubbling, so aiming is difficult.
3- Small barrel leads to missing of target.
4- Most importantly its ejector is made of carbon fibre. Which melts and break by continuous fire. Happened several time with my team during range fire.
5- Carbon fibre body makes it more vulnerable to wear and tear, hence not suitable for Indian conditions.
6- Foresight is not adjustable therefore not zeroing is very difficult.
7- Small barrel lead to extremely loud firing sound. Its creates concentration problem

Which gun are you talking about?
 
Brother nobody said CRPF has same number as Army, what I said is entire paramlitary personnel number is approximately equal to Army. But my references was about budget allocation. If you see it propotionately
their is huge difference. Well its absolutely out of topic and my apologies for bringing it up. Lets not discuss it more. Army fans will go nuts

Btw on topic

I am damn sure that not one more of it will be aquired.
1- Has serious problem of jamming with slightest of obstruction on round ejector.
2- Red dot target seeker has too much bubbling, so aiming is difficult.
3- Small barrel leads to missing of target.
4- Most importantly its ejector is made of carbon fibre. Which melts and break by continuous fire. Happened several time with my team during range fire.
5- Carbon fibre body makes it more vulnerable to wear and tear, hence not suitable for Indian conditions.
6- Foresight is not adjustable therefore not zeroing is very difficult.
7- Small barrel lead to extremely loud firing sound. Its creates concentration problem
Sir pardon me for asking this personal question and feel free not to answer it if you think it's inappropriate/classified,Are you an Assistant Commandant in the 203 battalion??
 
Short barrels,carbon fibre body,red dot sight - just connect the dots.He's talking about the MTAR..............most probably.
Yeah he is definitely talkiing about the X-95 Micro Tavor.I also came to know about some of these shortcoming from a friend of mine whose elder brother is currently serving in the CRPF.
 
Yeah he is definitely talkiing about the X-95 Micro Tavor.I also came to know about some of these shortcoming from a friend of mine whose elder brother is currently serving in the CRPF.

I see,so my guess was right indeed.Actually,the kids (like Mr Patriot here) always fall for those new,stylish,shiny looking foreign made rifles without realizing that most of those systems are designed for different kind of environment,and more often than not they develop a multitude of problems when brought into Indian environments and climate situations which by the way varies greatly from one place to another.Besides,the imported rifles (barring the AK of course) come with a price tag of about 8-10 times greater than the INSAS 1B1 which,with the UBGL costs about 25K /-.
 
I see,so my guess was right indeed.Actually,the kids (like Mr Patriot here) always fall for those new,stylish,shiny looking foreign made rifles without realizing that most of those systems are designed for different kind of environment,and more often than not they develop a multitude of problems when brought into Indian environments and climate situations which by the way varies greatly from one place to another.Besides,the imported rifles (barring the AK of course) come with a price tag of about 8-10 times greater than the INSAS 1B1 which,with the UBGL costs about 25K /-.
What you have stated here is absolutely correct barring the fact that the new version of INSAS aka 1B1 costs around 40K when fitted with UBGL.Now the 1B1 with UBGL is a deent A.R. but the main problem is that it being a selective fire mode rifle 1B1 is less effective than an AK series one in CQB where rate of fire matters the most.But i have seen the new Amogh carbine in the hands of the I.C.G. personnel and it looks perfect for CQB.Beside it's weight is much lesser than the 1B1.
 
What you have stated here is absolutely correct barring the fact that the new version of INSAS aka 1B1 costs around 40K when fitted with UBGL.Now the 1B1 with UBGL is a deent A.R. but the main problem is that it being a selective fire mode rifle 1B1 is less effective than an AK series one in CQB where rate of fire matters the most.But i have seen the new Amogh carbine in the hands of the I.C.G. personnel and it looks perfect for CQB.Beside it's weight is much lesser than the 1B1.

I was not talking about the new improved 1B1s with black body and new receivers and all but the old 1B1 with orange fore guards.Actually the INSAS was designed to be an ideal rifle for conventional battles against professional armies.That's why the full auto mode wasn't deemed necessary but as you told,it is not quite fit for low intensity counter insurgency and that too in a jungle environment,where CRPF is often deployed and most of the battles are fought within 50-100 meters due to no clear line of sight resulting from the dense undergrowth.And at such range,an SS 109 round fired from the 18.5" barrel and at the muzzle velocity of nearly 940 meter/second, in all likeliness would simply pass through the skinny and malnourished Maoists without tumbling and when the guerrillas are high on adrenaline,they wouldn't even feel much pain at that moment.They may die later a slow death due to blood loss but when in a fire fight,you can not really count on that.You would need to knock your enemy down on the ground as soon as possible and the AKs with their bigger,heavier and slower rounds are the perfect choice for that job.No wonder the CRPF wants to induct more AK variants,no problem with that.
 

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