CRPF asks govt to replace Insas guns with AK rifles

[acetophenol]

The first basis would be the army's vocal opposition to the INSAS since its induction. Second would be the army going for Tavor over the INSAS. Third would be the army floating a tender for a new rifle which has no mention of INSAS.

Compare the weight of the INSAS with other rifles of same calibre. An American M14 carbine, the standard issue holds a 30 round magazine, can go full auto, has the capability to mount scopes and weighs almost 1kg less than INSAS. INSAS can carry only 20 round mag, cannot go full auto, cannot mount the modern reflex sights and its empty weight is the same as an M14 loaded.

There are way too many problems with the INSAS. Why do you think the Tavor is fast replacing INSAS in Kashmir? Even the CRPF guys are dumping INSAS in the valley in favor of Tavor.

Indian Armed forces uses lakhs of INSAS rifles in various scenarios,from Siachin,to Thar,peacekeeping missions in Africa. The INSAS has proved itself in countless conflicts and war games. You don't need to be explained on how much import friendly our armed forces are. They could've dumped INSAS and gone for any foreign toy they wanted anytime. Instead,they chose INSAS Rifles and its variants which has served them for more than a decade. Its because,INSAS is a perfect choice for a general issue rifle. The Army never went for Tavour as its general issue rifle. Tavour is prefered due to its inherent advantages as a bullpup rifle. The INSAS was designed as per the requirement of Army,and the weight falls within their requirements. INSAS too has its own foreign and domestic sights which the Army uses extensively,including Night and Thermal scope. Infact INSAS is prefered in the designated marksman role too. Do you think we were unable to design a rifle with 30 round mag goes full auto? It was the army's choice to have 22 round mags with single and 3 round bursts. Full auto is seldom used in combat when it comes to rifles. INSAS rifle variants with full auto and 30 mag rounds were available from the beginning itself. The Army's new tender do not mention about INSAS because of Army's change of doctrine to use multi cal rifles,not because INSAS is a bad rifle.
https://public.by3302.livefilestore...-hTNqIBJ0hehfxb-hhLVWMAGw/_99B8455.jpg?psid=1

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-11/11/132877494_11n.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/tMHNaaj.jpg

 

[Indian Patriot]

Indian Armed forces uses lakhs of INSAS rifles in various scenarios,from Siachin,to Thar,peacekeeping missions in Africa. The INSAS has proved itself in countless conflicts and war games. You don't need to be explained on how much import friendly our armed forces are. They could've dumped INSAS and gone for any foreign toy they wanted anytime. Instead,they chose INSAS Rifles and its variants which has served them for more than a decade. Its because,INSAS is a perfect choice for a general issue rifle. The Army never went for Tavour as its general issue rifle. Tavour is prefered due to its inherent advantages as a bullpup rifle. The INSAS was designed as per the requirement of Army,and the weight falls within their requirements. INSAS too has its own foreign and domestic sights which the Army uses extensively,including Night and Thermal scope. Infact INSAS is prefered in the designated marksman role too. Do you think we were unable to design a rifle with 30 round mag goes full auto? It was the army's choice to have 22 round mags with single and 3 round bursts. Full auto is seldom used in combat when it comes to rifles. INSAS rifle variants with full auto and 30 mag rounds were available from the beginning itself. The Army's new tender do not mention about INSAS because of Army's change of doctrine to use multi cal rifles,not because INSAS is a bad rifle.
https://public.by3302.livefilestore...-hTNqIBJ0hehfxb-hhLVWMAGw/_99B8455.jpg?psid=1

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/photo/2013-11/11/132877494_11n.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/tMHNaaj.jpg

1. They will have to use them since the OFB manufactured them in such big numbers. Indian armed forces also use the AK, Tavor and other such weapons in equally big numbers.

2. They already dumped the INSAS in Kashmir. They are using Tavor and AK in the valley. Buying foreign arms is not as easy as you make it sound. The army has been demanding foreign weapons for a long time but army cannot directly buy. The bureaucratic red tape is a result of this large INSAS numbers.

Look at the artillery acquisition process. It has been 10 years but still India is trying out these guns. Another 10 years and hopefully the first artillery battalion would be inducted, hopefully.

3. Tavor is in every way superior to INSAS. There is no comparison here. IA special forces, the parachute regiment, commandos all use Tavor.

4. I refuse to believe that the Indian army is dumb enough to demand a 5.56 calibre rifle that weighs more than 4 kg without magazine. Modern 5.56 rifles with a 30 round magazine weighs less than 4 kg. In fact no other 5.56 rifle with full weight weighs more than 3.6 kg barring INSAS.

5. Yes I too have seen the sights on a few INSAS rifles. Compare those sights with the sights on Tavor. The Tavor sights are smaller, lighter and more sophisticated reflex red-dot sights. INSAS sights are bulky and heavy adding weight to an already heavy rifle. And it is wise to have a 7.62 calibre weapon as a designated marksman rifle.

6. INSAS was ordered by army in early 80s when IA was handling the heavy 7.62x51mm SLR. That weapon, weighing just slightly more than INSAS, had a 20 round magazine and was impossible to fire at full auto. By the time INSAS was first deployed in 90s the doctrine had changed.

Full auto does not mean the soldier will press the trigger and empty his magazine. All armies train to fight on semi-automatic fire. But during emergencies when soldiers have to fight a numerically-superior enemy, in close quarter combat or fight out of an ambush then you are a goner if you don't have full auto capability. INSAS does not have auto fire.

7. INSAS rifles have always been deployed with 20 round magazines. And this absolutely makes no sense. The logic of having a 5.56 mm "weaker round" in comparison to 7.62 was that 5.56 is lighter and hence more ammo can be carried to battlefield.

The standard army jawan carries 4 magazines in his ammo pouch and one magazine in rifle. A total of 100 rounds. The .303 rifle weighs 4 kg fully loaded, has a 10 round magazine, fires a far more powerful round, is more accurate and has a greater range.

The INSAS is everything that is wrong with Indian public sector defence units. India desperately needs to get TATA, Mahindra, Larsen and Toubro and all major domestic private sector houses to build weapons and retire these obsolete PSUs.

 

[Mike_Brando]

That 11,80,000 is total army+air force+navy combined number. The Indian army has roughly 400 battalions where each battalion comprises of 600 soldiers. That makes an infantry of 240,000 troops and the rest are supporting like armour, artillery, aviation, administration, medics, engineers etc. Everybody in the army is not a frontline soldier.

The Central armed police forces do not fall under CRPF if I am not mistaken, they have a separate chain of command. But for arguments sake lets agree that CRPF numbers 11,80,000 they are still not equipped to the level of the army.

Nah the overall stregth of the Indian Army is given in the table along with that f the Air Force and Navy.Even the number f officers and other personnel has been mentioned separately of each of three forces.Just look at the table carefully and you'll observe it.Yeah it's true that the Indian Army Infantry Corp consists of around 459 battalions out of which around 60 battalions belongs to the R.R.. but there are many other departments in the Army like the mechanised Infantry,Brigade of Artillery,Army Service Corp,Army Aviation Corp,Army Signals Corp(the 2nd largest Corp after Infantry),Army Medical Corp,Army Judiciary Corp etc.The fighting force of the Army is quite small compared to its size as only the Infantry Corp and the Mechanized infantry participates in the actual ground operation.
Each infantry battalion consists of around 900-1000 soldiers or around 6 rifle companies and other support elements.
The Central Armed Police Forces falls under the operational command of the Ministry of Home Affairs and each of these forces has a separate chain of command.CRPF is the largest Central Armed Police Force with over 290,000 personnel and hence the majority of the central allocation of funds should be diverted towards them as they are the Premium C.I. force in this country.The ordinary CRPF trooper should be armed and equipped with all the latest weapons and gadgetry to give them a clear advantage in their fight against the anti-Indian insurgents.

 

[fallstuff]

The first basis would be the army's vocal opposition to the INSAS since its induction. Second would be the army going for Tavor over the INSAS. Third would be the army floating a tender for a new rifle which has no mention of INSAS.

Compare the weight of the INSAS with other rifles of same calibre. An American M14 carbine, the standard issue holds a 30 round magazine, can go full auto, has the capability to mount scopes and weighs almost 1kg less than INSAS. INSAS can carry only 20 round mag, cannot go full auto, cannot mount the modern reflex sights and its empty weight is the same as an M14 loaded.

There are way too many problems with the INSAS. Why do you think the Tavor is fast replacing INSAS in Kashmir? Even the CRPF guys are dumping INSAS in the valley in favor of Tavor.

You should be able to use a 30 round mag or a 100 round drum if you choose to.

 

[acetophenol]

1. They will have to use them since the OFB manufactured them in such big numbers. Indian armed forces also use the AK, Tavor and other such weapons in equally big numbers.

2. They already dumped the INSAS in Kashmir. They are using Tavor and AK in the valley. Buying foreign arms is not as easy as you make it sound. The army has been demanding foreign weapons for a long time but army cannot directly buy. The bureaucratic red tape is a result of this large INSAS numbers.

Look at the artillery acquisition process. It has been 10 years but still India is trying out these guns. Another 10 years and hopefully the first artillery battalion would be inducted, hopefully.

3. Tavor is in every way superior to INSAS. There is no comparison here. IA special forces, the parachute regiment, commandos all use Tavor.

4. I refuse to believe that the Indian army is dumb enough to demand a 5.56 calibre rifle that weighs more than 4 kg without magazine. Modern 5.56 rifles with a 30 round magazine weighs less than 4 kg. In fact no other 5.56 rifle with full weight weighs more than 3.6 kg barring INSAS.

5. Yes I too have seen the sights on a few INSAS rifles. Compare those sights with the sights on Tavor. The Tavor sights are smaller, lighter and more sophisticated reflex red-dot sights. INSAS sights are bulky and heavy adding weight to an already heavy rifle. And it is wise to have a 7.62 calibre weapon as a designated marksman rifle.

6. INSAS was ordered by army in early 80s when IA was handling the heavy 7.62x51mm SLR. That weapon, weighing just slightly more than INSAS, had a 20 round magazine and was impossible to fire at full auto. By the time INSAS was first deployed in 90s the doctrine had changed.

Full auto does not mean the soldier will press the trigger and empty his magazine. All armies train to fight on semi-automatic fire. But during emergencies when soldiers have to fight a numerically-superior enemy, in close quarter combat or fight out of an ambush then you are a goner if you don't have full auto capability. INSAS does not have auto fire.

7. INSAS rifles have always been deployed with 20 round magazines. And this absolutely makes no sense. The logic of having a 5.56 mm "weaker round" in comparison to 7.62 was that 5.56 is lighter and hence more ammo can be carried to battlefield.

The standard army jawan carries 4 magazines in his ammo pouch and one magazine in rifle. A total of 100 rounds. The .303 rifle weighs 4 kg fully loaded, has a 10 round magazine, fires a far more powerful round, is more accurate and has a greater range.

The INSAS is everything that is wrong with Indian public sector defence units. India desperately needs to get TATA, Mahindra, Larsen and Toubro and all major domestic private sector houses to build weapons and retire these obsolete PSUs.

OFB makes the rifles only after securing orders from the Army. Army ordered 1000s of rifles,thats why 1000s of INSAS were made. Army ordered Kalanishkovs at about the same time they ordered INSAS. Buying a new rifle was never a problem. Army came up with a new rifle (multi cal) need only recently. They haven't dumped the INSAS in Kashmir,it has been spotted several times in CT ops,especialy the LMG. The Army uses INSAS in marksman role and they know better. The 3 round burst is rarely used,in any case,let alone the full auto. As I mentiöned earlier,it was Army's choice to have 22 round mag and no full auto. The INSAS uses a variety of sights and the carl seiss optics on INSAS (one in the Indo China pic) is of comparable size with that of Tavour. I agree with you that our PSUs must be revamped and more participation from private players must be there. At the same time I stand by my point, INSAS is a good general issue rifle.
http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419089_306787912707068_1261052365_n.jpg

 

[Indian Patriot]

Nah the overall stregth of the Indian Army is given in the table along with that f the Air Force and Navy.Even the number f officers and other personnel has been mentioned separately of each of three forces.Just look at the table carefully and you'll observe it.Yeah it's true that the Indian Army Infantry Corp consists of around 459 battalions out of which around 60 battalions belongs to the R.R.. but there are many other departments in the Army like the mechanised Infantry,Brigade of Artillery,Army Service Corp,Army Aviation Corp,Army Signals Corp(the 2nd largest Corp after Infantry),Army Medical Corp,Army Judiciary Corp etc.The fighting force of the Army is quite small compared to its size as only the Infantry Corp and the Mechanized infantry participates in the actual ground operation.
Each infantry battalion consists of around 900-1000 soldiers or around 6 rifle companies and other support elements.
The Central Armed Police Forces falls under the operational command of the Ministry of Home Affairs and each of these forces has a separate chain of command.CRPF is the largest Central Armed Police Force with over 290,000 personnel and hence the majority of the central allocation of funds should be diverted towards them as they are the Premium C.I. force in this country.The ordinary CRPF trooper should be armed and equipped with all the latest weapons and gadgetry to give them a clear advantage in their fight against the anti-Indian insurgents.

The official strength of Indian armed forces is 1.1 million. I seriously doubt all the 1.1 million would be the army. The air force+navy combine would be atleast 100,000. Though to be honest the number could be less than 50,000 for the latter.

900-1000 is on paper. The actual fighting force is more like 600 men which would be about 5 companies.

The entire bulk of C.I. is done by army. So either the army is too dumb or the CRPF is obsolete. In India an AK-47 is considered a sophisticated weapon.

 

[Indian Patriot]

You should be able to use a 30 round mag or a 100 round drum if you choose to.

Never seen an INSAS with a 30 round mag. A 30 round mag should be the standard for a modern rifle. And good luck fitting a 100 round magazine in a semi-automatic rifle. The weight and the effort of pulling the trigger over a duration of time would be enough to give you arthritis.

 

[Indian Patriot]

OFB makes the rifles only after securing orders from the Army. Army ordered 1000s of rifles,thats why 1000s of INSAS were made. Army ordered Kalanishkovs at about the same time they ordered INSAS. Buying a new rifle was never a problem. Army came up with a new rifle (multi cal) need only recently. They haven't dumped the INSAS in Kashmir,it has been spotted several times in CT ops,especialy the LMG. The Army uses INSAS in marksman role and they know better. The 3 round burst is rarely used,in any case,let alone the full auto. As I mentiöned earlier,it was Army's choice to have 22 round mag and no full auto. The INSAS uses a variety of sights and the carl seiss optics on INSAS (one in the Indo China pic) is of comparable size with that of Tavour. I agree with you that our PSUs must be revamped and more participation from private players must be there. At the same time I stand by my point, INSAS is a good general issue rifle.
http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/419089_306787912707068_1261052365_n.jpg

The army cannot continue with the SLR. I won't be surprised if the SLR ammo was imported but army urgently needed a replacement. AK-47s were purchased from Romania but some buffoon in DRDO/OFB must have suggested an indigenous rifle and the INSAS took place. The army will need something to fight with so they HAD to place an order. Army ordered AKs because they needed a reliable weapon in addition to the joke that is INSAS.

The INSAS LMG is another joke from OFB. In 2014 India is using a magazine fed Light Machine Gun. For the love of God the last time a magagine fed machine was used it was by the Japanese in WW2. Or you can add the Bren by the British at the same era.

LMG are area weapons used to provide covering fire for home troops and suppressing fire against the enemy. The Indian Bren gun, though magazine fed atleast fires a 7.62 round. The INSAS LMG on the other hand fires a 5.56 round, is fed with a 30 round magazine instead of the 100 round chain-link ammo which is the world standard for LMG and has absolutely no room for any scopes. That weapon is practically useless at night. Weight of 7.62 mm Bren is 8.6 kg and weight of 5.56 mm INSAS LMG is 6.2 kg. The INSAS weapons are unnecessarily heavy which puts unwanted pressure on the soldiers manning them.

Army uses the Dragunov sniper rifle in marksman role. Who told you that a 5.56 mm INSAS is used in DM roles? LOL! A DM is an ad hoc sniper attached to an army platoon to take out targets at long range. Why would a squad carrying INSAS rifles use an INSAS rifle as a sniper weapon? Makes no sense at all. The Tavor has an effective range of 500 meters and the INSAS has a range of 400 meters.

Why would a weapon with less range be used to shoot targets at long range? The army knows better that's why all units in hot zones are equipped with Tavor/AK and the DM rifle is the Dragunov not the INSAS.

In counter insurgency you do not use semi automatic fire. Counter insurgency operations are ambush type warfare where engagements with the enemy are at very short-range. That's why compact weapons like MP5 are used for easy maneuvering. In CQC firepower means much more than accuracy. Semi automatic mode does not give you superior firepower, full auto mode does that.

The Carl seiss sight is an extremely expensive one and would be more expensive than the weapon itself. I doubt if every INSAS would be equipped with the Carl Seiss sight.

The ordinary jawan in the army deserves much better than the garbage known as INSAS rifle. It is heavy, bulky, lacks firepower, cannot carry enough ammo and is a comparatively weak round than 7.62. Tavor also fires 5.56 but it has a 30 round mag as standard, is lighter, compact, accurate and can go full auto in emergencies.

 

[Omega007]

This @Indian Patriot hilly billy has been shooting from its heap from the very beginning,all of his posts are literally filled with unsubstantiated trash yet the members have been entertaining him with all the logical reasoning they can come with.Why guys,don't you have some better works to do or is it that your time is so much cheap??Stop entertaining this bozo and lets move on.I mean,a guy who can compare an assault rifle like INSAS with a carbine like M 4 does not and should be deserving the level of attention you are giving to him!!Enough said.

 

[Mike_Brando]

The official strength of Indian armed forces is 1.1 million. I seriously doubt all the 1.1 million would be the army. The air force+navy combine would be atleast 100,000. Though to be honest the number could be less than 50,000 for the latter.

900-1000 is on paper. The actual fighting force is more like 600 men which would be about 5 companies.

The entire bulk of C.I. is done by army. So either the army is too dumb or the CRPF is obsolete. In India an AK-47 is considered a sophisticated weapon.

Please go through the table carefully at least once.It clearly states that the Navy has around 60,000 personnel including officers in it's ranks while the Air Force has around 142,000 men and women under it's command.This table is 100% authentic in the sense that it was presneted by erstwhile Defense Minister in the Budget session of the Parliament this year.

 

[Omega007]

Please go through the table carefully at least once.It clearly states that the Navy has around 60,000 personnel including officers in it's ranks while the Air Force has around 142,000 men and women under it's command.This table is 100% authentic in the sense that it was presneted by erstwhile Defense Minister in the Budget session of the Parliament this year.

You are wasting your time bro,that bozo thinks that India has to import 7.62X51mm NATO rounds from abroad when it fact it is manufactured here in country by the OFB.He could have found the info from the official OFB site but no,why would he??It's easier for these scums to come here and annoy everyone with all their baseless rants rather than looking for the actual information.That's why you will never see me replying to the morons like this one here.

 

[Indian Patriot]

This @Indian Patriot hilly billy has been shooting from its heap from the very beginning,all of his posts are literally filled with unsubstantiated trash yet the members have been entertaining him with all the logical reasoning they can come with.Why guys,don't you have some better works to do or is it that your time is so much cheap??Stop entertaining this bozo and lets move on.I mean,a guy who can compare an assault rifle like INSAS with a carbine like M 4 does not and should be deserving the level of attention you are giving to him!!Enough said.

I call the INSAS rifle what it is, a crap weapon and you start crying. Maybe for you the INSAS is a world class weapon not for the officers in the Indian army who are demanding more Tavors.

And you fool, the M4A1 carbine is the standard weapon for the US military. ROFLOL!

If an ignorant loser like you does not have a clue about firearms it does not mean the same for others. Now allow me to educate a loser like you.

M4A1: 5.56 x 45 mm, 30 round magazine, 3.4 kg fully loaded, 2900 ft/s muzzle velocity, effective range 500 meters.

INSAS: 5.56 x45 mm, 20 round magazine, 4.15 kg without magazine, 2950ft/s muzzle velocity, effective range 400 meters.

Both the INSAS and the M4 "carbine" fire the same caliber round and are the standard issue weapon for regular infantry. So dear loser @Omega007 can you please explain why is it wrong to compare these two weapons?

 

[Indian Patriot]

Please go through the table carefully at least once.It clearly states that the Navy has around 60,000 personnel including officers in it's ranks while the Air Force has around 142,000 men and women under it's command.This table is 100% authentic in the sense that it was presneted by erstwhile Defense Minister in the Budget session of the Parliament this year.

My bad. I stand corrected regarding the AF and navy numbers. Though it is still hard for me to think that the army alone has over 1 million troops. But the original point still stands which was that CRPF does not have the same numbers as the army.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Now for those people who genuinely want to know why the CRPF would want to abandon this junk called INSAS rifle. Allow me to give you a brief comparison between different assault rifles in use around the world as of 2014.

INSAS: 5.56 x45 mm, 20 round magazine, 4.15 kg without magazine, 2950ft/s muzzle velocity, effective range 400 meters.

M4A1: 5.56 x 45 mm, 30 round magazine, 3.4 kg fully loaded, 2900 ft/s muzzle velocity, effective range 500 meters.

Tavor-21: 5.56 x 45mm, 30 round magazine, 3.27 kg fully loaded, 2980 ft/s, effective range 500 meters.

Famas: 5.56 x 45 mm, 30 round magazine, 3.6 kg fully loaded, 3100 ft/s, effective range 450 meters

G-36: 5.56 x 45 mm, 30 round magazine, 3.6 kg fully loaded, 3000 ft/s, effective range 600 meters (800 meters with their additional sight)

The above are a comparison between different rifles firing 5.56 x 45 mm caliber rounds. Judge for yourself where you think INSAS stands.

Indian forces also use the 7.62 x 39 mm firing AK-47 mainly in counter-insurgency operations. Here is what a 7.62 mm firing AK looks like.

AK-47: 7.62 x 39 mm, 30 round magazine, 4.78 kg fully loaded, 2300 ft/s, effective range 350-400 meters.

Of course there are different variants of AK including ones that fire 5.56 x 45 mm rounds. But if I am not wrong the ones India re manufacturing domestically and currently in use are the 7.62 mm variety.

 

[ptltejas]

VHP and RSS must be equipped with INSAS then.

They don't accept it, They are Not a Terrorist Organisation, and the people of that oraganisations are not a Terrorists.