CPEC & FTA: Deals built on Lies & Hurting Pakistan

[doorstar]

what an erroneous (if not downright fraudulent) thread!

beautifully presented, though.

 

[KhanBaba2]

what an erroneous (if not downright fraudulent) thread!

beautifully presented, though.

How about elaborating on what you think is fraudalent

 

[doorstar]

How about elaborating on what you think is fraudalent

elaborating on PDF, without the backing of mods/admins, is like trying to clean sewage from ganga single-handedly (no sooner you clean a ton of crap out, another 1000 tons will be dumped)

 

[tkmd]

So let's be clear, no loan is every in your favor. Simply put no company foreign or domestic is willing or able to invest in Pakistan. Our people r illiterate and the overall culture is one of British colonial era design.

Meanwhile the mallus next door have been working day and night to develop themselves. India is a threat to China as well as Pakistan. To add to this, the US has been since the Obama days focused on making India a bulwark against China.

So it is not some nefarious desing to enslave Pakistan that China and Pakistan saw a beneficial opportunity, with risk (as is true of all business propositions), to attempt to mitigate the rise of India , life Pakistan out of the economic doldrums it was in by at least addressing the power and mobility issues all over the nation and also planning for the next 100 years wherein China sees it's economic prospects on the Western frontier.

Also I see a lot of BS about how this is all some idiotic plan hatched by PMLN and NS. I'll remind all those clown posters that CPEC was started as an idea during musharrafs era, was planned largely during zardaris time and executed under the last govt. And throughout all of it the armed forces were the main backer. It's not a mistake when IKs incompetent Minister's starting mouthing off about CPEC that Bajwa himself went to Beijing to smooth things over

Bottom line cpec is a framework built with loans. My student loans were a means to get my medical degree .if I was lazy and expected things to just be handed to me I wouldn't have remained in med school or matched in residency or passed my board exams etc. And then those big 360k dollar loans I took out would look really nasty to me.

Just like I had to work my butt off and perform 110 percent every day , so to our workers companies and govts need to as well. Don't blame cpec loans blame idiot Minister's who r more content yelling and screaming in parliament, unskilled workers who have no problem making ten kids but cant show up and do a good job at work etc.

 

[I.R.A]

@I.R.A

Ira mian,

That is where we need an honest, mature, experienced leadership governing Pakistan.

I suspect you dont consider Kaptaan sahib (IK, not @Indus Pakistan sb) as fitting the bill?

Regards

IK is for five years only. He is a mortal being, what interests me more is the one who takes charge after five years (that person may or may not be IK, but I would like to see lots of new young faces from middle class). My expectation from IK, is that he succeeds in setting a platform, and somehow to some extent (no matter how little) revive the institutions and push them back to performing their primary role and functions, introduce and better the legislation, the politics of dynasties and illiterate fake degree holders ends. He is the first little baby step towards stability, transparency and right direction. As I said I would like the continuation of successful policies and practices.

IK if he had the majority and had the liberty of hiring his own cabinet with new young talent, I may have expected miracles, but sadly for the time being government is run by already tried and tested.

@VCheng this also serves response to your point on another thread.

 

[VCheng]

IK is for five years only. He is a mortal being, what interests me more is the one who takes charge after five years (that person may or may not be IK, but I would like to see lots of new young faces from middle class). My expectation from IK, is that he succeeds in setting a platform, and somehow to some extent (no matter how little) revive the institutions and push them back to performing their primary role and functions, introduce and better the legislation, the politics of dynasties and illiterate fake degree holders ends. He is the first little baby step towards stability, transparency and right direction. As I said I would like the continuation of successful policies and practices.

IK if he had the majority and had the liberty of hiring his own cabinet with new young talent, I may have expected miracles, but sadly for the time being government is run by already tried and tested.

@VCheng this also serves response to your point on another thread.

As I have always maintained, much to the chagrin of most here, PMIK is but one man. He can only do so much, but the cult worshipers do not have the ability to see anything beyond him at all. His leadership is valuable in setting the foundations for a better future course, if he is able to deliver on his promises. Otherwise he will be not much more than Junejo the Second. He still has plenty of time left in his term in office.

 

[B.K.N]

IK is for five years only. He is a mortal being, what interests me more is the one who takes charge after five years (that person may or may not be IK,

Imran Khan is going nowhere for at least 15 to 20 years
fit body no diabetes no blood pressure unlike other politicians
aap ko lagta hai ka 22 sal ki koshish ka bad wo 5 sal main chor da ga

I would like to see lots of new young faces from middle class).

Not possible because middle people from middle class don't take part in elections
but is there any gurrentee MNAs from middle would be any better
most of our babus are from middle class and we all know how imandar they are

PMIK is but one man

There is an institution named Pakistan army with Imran Khan
most of MNAs are also with him
waisay yeh MNA itnay buray bhi nhi jitnay they are believed here to be
not everyone is zardari or Nawaz corruption in Politics was introduced by these two great personalities

 

[I.R.A]

Imran Khan is going nowhere for at least 15 to 20 years
fit body no diabetes no blood pressure unlike other politicians
aap ko lagta hai ka 22 sal ki koshish ka bad wo 5 sal main chor da ga

Lets not play God and predict the future ...... he is but the mortal and not a perfect being. Every mortal till his last breath feels it's not his time yet.

And if you think it was only IK's struggle that finally brought him the fruition, you are mistaken. See the faces around him again, he was given what they wished and what suited them, else he would have 2/3 majority ........ if Pakistan could afford another two decades of corrupt practices, IK would still be arranging a sit in of 200 people somewhere without much media coverage.

Not possible because middle people from middle class don't take part in elections
but is there any gurrentee MNAs from middle would be any better
most of our babus are from middle class and we all know how imandar they are

That's why I said I expect revival of institutions and stability. I wish he would stop with this CSS and other civil services program and totally revamp our education system.

MNAs and MPAs are elected for legislation and the candidates should be the ones capable of that. Which we sadly have forgotten.

 

[B.K.N]

he is but the mortal and not a perfect being. Every mortal till his last breath feels it's not his time yet.

Sir what is the gurrentee both of us would live long enough to see change in Pakistan
mar to phir aik din ka bachay bhi jatay hain

And if you think it was only IK's struggle that finally brought him the fruition, you are mistaken

It was the result of Imran Khan's struggle that those faces joined him
in parliamentary system these faces are necessory to win election
presidential system ki bat karain to matam shura hojata hai
aur phir faces ka Rona Roya jata hai

the candidates should be the ones capable of that. Which we sadly have forgotten.

Capability is not problem afterall winning trust of thousands of people in itself is a capability
also most MNAs and MPAs are highly educated
and even if they are not capable then there are advisors to guide them

 

[I.R.A]

It was the result of Imran Khan's struggle that those faces joined him
in parliamentary system these faces are necessory to win election
presidential system ki bat karain to matam shura hojata hai
aur phir faces ka Rona Roya jata hai

Soch hy ap ki. In electable ko electable banaya kiss nay hy?

Fatima Jinnah iss mulk may Ghadar karar pai thi.

Capability is not problem afterall winning trust of thousands of people in itself is a capability
also most MNAs and MPAs are highly educated
and even if they are not capable then there are advisors to guide them

Winning trust of people who think continued supply of electricity is all they need ...... isn't that difficult by the way. Biryani ki plate pay to vote bik jatay hain yahan app kis dunia ki bat kar rahy ho yar?

 

[B.K.N]

Fatima Jinnah iss mulk may Ghadar karar pai thi.

Main family politics pay yakeen nhi rakhta at least at national level

Winning trust of people who think continued supply of electricity is all they need ...... isn't that difficult by the way. Biryani ki plate pay to vote bik jatay hain yahan app kis dunia ki bat kar rahy ho yar?

I have never personally seen any one voting for biryani or money
Suna ha baray shehron main hota hai
Ham to pehlay hi kehtay Hain jamhoriyat fraud ha lekin hamaray media army aur siyasatdanon par jamhoriyat ka bhoot sawar hai

 

[I.R.A]

Main family politics pay yakeen nhi rakhta at least at national level

To iss mulk may ajj tak hota kya raha hy? Even PTI supporters are worried who would take over charge of PTI after IK.

 

[B.K.N]

To iss mulk may ajj tak hota kya raha hy? Even PTI supporters are worried who would take over charge of PTI after IK.

Jo bhi hota rha hai ghalat hota rha ha jaisay Bhutto phir benazir phir zadari ab bilawal

 

[I.R.A]

Jo bhi hota rha hai ghalat hota rha ha jaisay Bhutto phir benazir phir zadari ab bilawal

Well I think its better we get back to debate on CPEC and its projects. You may initiate a thread on politics in Pakistan and we can argue there.

 

[Sugarcane]

OK, I knew there must have been some mistakes in what I've written and I think I found a major mistake but even with that this all seems way too far off.



I'm basing ROE on overall Capacity which from what I've read isn't correct at best it should be based on the capacity factor which for this plant was estimated at 42.03%

This means that the ROE should probably be about $2.5 Billion USD but even then with that amount of equity put in is still high at about 286% though not 680%. However, this is still well over what IPP's get in North America which is about 10%.

However, I still think there's something wrong with my calculations regarding this even the original agreement cites an ROE less than 24.5% for this deal (Port Qasim Coal Power Plant) and likely for other similar deals which if true, I would be fine with.

I'm pretty sure I've made some serious errors when discussing the power projects particularly the coal fired power plants when the agreements speak of a total levelized cost of energy at 8.3601 US Cents/KWh (though back in 2014 and since then the rupee has depreciated by 46% since then) over the 30 years of operational life which is perfectly fine.

@Sugarcane @OsmanAli98 @beijingwalker @Max @LeGenD @khanmubashir @DESERT FIGHTER @shahbaz baig @SoulSpokesman @War Thunder @Ahmet Pasha @nahtanbob

I believe I need to delete this thread and re do it after some more extensive research on the power plant deals because there is no way I was initially correct since what I stated regarding ROE's for the coal fired power plants is completely insane.

I still stand with the rest especially relating to the idea that we're going to make billions from transit trade outside of oil/gas pipelines which I still think should be the main focus.

I want to give accurate information regarding this so I'd ask everyone do their own research on this and don't just take my word for it. I

When you redo, Keep in mind kickback factor while calculating ROE. For example, government of Pakistan want to setup an power generation plant. You have company who have good reputation in building power plants, you come forward show your interest in building plant with latest technology available at competitive prices with i.e. 10% internationally competitive ROE, As you are confident that no other party can provide same quality of work in lessor cost than you so you don't feel that you have to engage in malpractice. On other hand, I also have company who is your competitor but I know how things work in Pakistan. So, instead of trying to knock you out on ground of quality and cost, I will engage right people at right places. My quoted prices will be multiple than what you quoted, quality will be even lower but still I will get the project even exemption from taxes and duties for import of materials, corporate tax holiday for some years (Depends on what I am offering to crooks), my ROE will be much higher then yours. But, will I be putting all those profits in my pockets? No, because either I will be recovering (Most of the cases as the crooks believe on upfront money) or I have to fill the pockets of all crooks involved in sanctioning the project along with those who poses the power to challenge the project. In many cases, I don't even need to have expertise in building power plants, all I will do is get the project and subcontract it. This practically happens in almost all government project, doesn't matter who is in government only %age of kickback change based on government.