Cousin marriages (we need to talk about this)

[Critical Citizen]

Cousin marriage or not, the right to independently choose life partner should be given to people. Family pressure into marrying with a particular person of particular category should be done away with.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Hi guys.

So yeah. I know. That topic. A lot of people are very sensitive about it, and do not appreciate the terms associated with it, but we need to have this conversation. It concerns not just Pakistan, but many other countries within the region too such as Iran, India, Afghanistan and Bangladesh (it also concerns the Arabs too). Here's a map showing it's prevalence throughout the region:

Many of you out there such as @Horus believe that there is nothing wrong with marrying your cousin, others such as @abcxyz0000 vehemently condemn the practice (or at least that's what previous threads on the topic give the impression of). Gentlemen, we are here to reach a conclusion based on the facts we have readily available. I will present my case, and I encourage others to do the same within this thread. Now, onto the discussion.

I'm going to structure this by busting some common myths in depth, and then reaching my own conclusion to share with you, here I go:

1. Marrying your cousin is incest

Wrong, whilst different cultures might treat it as incest it is not actually incest. The definition if incest is "having sexual intercourse with a parent, child, sibling, or grandchild". Having a relationship with your cousin does not fall into this category and genetically speaking they are nowhere near as genetically similar to you as other family members are as these statistics clearly demonstrate:

Heck, even these statistics are the median/upper boundaries. First cousins can often share only 7% of their genetic make up with you. So it's far from incest.

The line only gets blurred when you talk about inbreeding, as the definition for that is to "breed from closely related people or animals, especially over many generations". Some might consider cousins to be closely related, others not so much. Compared to marrying your other relatives, marrying your cousin is nowhere near as bad (especially when you get into third cousin territory). Also, the definition applies specific emphasis on the "over many generations" bit (more on that later). So even if you consider cousins as closely related, it's not really inbreeding unless done over many generations.

Also, please keep in mind that terms such as inbreeding and incest are often used as derogatory terms so even if you mean no offence, it will still make people upset or angry so please refrain from such language. That goes for all types of derogatory slurs in general.

2. Having children with your cousin produces horribly mutated beings

No. No it does not. The percentage risk of the child having any defect of any sort (including mild ones such as poor hearing) is roughly the same as that of a child produced by a 40 year old women. Are you going to tell me 40 year old women usually produce horribly mutated babies? No, because that's not the case. Don't believe me? Take a look at what the statistics say:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...s-getting-married-scientists-say-1210072.html

https://www.cousincouples.com/?page=facts

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2014/02/people-stop-thinking-appropriate-cousins-marry/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Genetics

Even if you go by the argument of "an increase in risk is still an increase in risk", by that logic you should only marry people of completely different race for the most genetic diversity.

These sources do also bring up that infamous Pakistani Briton statistic, and explains it. In those cases, the cousins were mostly double cousins or cross/parallel cousins. In other words, these people had this practice going on for generations. So the risk for these guys would obviously be much higher, which is why they yielded many more disabilities. It's also important to take note that over 50% of Pakistani Britons are married to their cousins. The vast majority of them obviously do not produce children which are horribly disabled, as the British birth defect rate is at 2%:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...in-50-babies-has-a-birth-defect-research.html

So it's clear that even the ones who continue the practice over generations, they do not always produce horribly disabled children (but the risk is significantly higher).

However, there's one topic that's a bit more controversial. IQ. There are many statistics showing children whose parents are cousins have low IQ's, such as this one:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/07/cousin-marriage-can-reduce-i-q-a-lot/#.WIuUvFN97IU

But fear not, because most of these tests have yielded contradictory results and the conditions for the tests have not exactly been fair. For example, it's unknown as to whether or not the students are the product of many generations of cousin marriage, or it's just their parents who chose to do so. Given that cousin marriage is legal throughout most of the world (including Western countries such as the UK), I highly doubt it would honestly affect IQ's. The students who score lower also tend to come from less economically stable backgrounds, which can affect IQ:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#Genetics_and_environment

Not to mention IQ's do not predict how successful you will become in life. You can have a high IQ and still fail school, it's your effort which really matters. I think it's also fair to mention that I have known many people whose parents are cousins and have perfectly fine (some even superior) IQ's. If IQ's were really affected by cousin marriage, then Pakistan should have the lowest IQ worldwide due to it having the highest rate of cousin marriage worldwide, but it doesn't even come close.

Now, what about this statistic?

http://www.nairaland.com/1448664/muslim-countries-found-highest-rates

The above source clearly shows the countries with high rates of cousin marriage have high rates of birth defects. In fact, all these countries (with the exception of Benin) have high rates of cousin marriages. First of all, whilst high, Sudan (which tops the list) still has about 8% of it's population with birth defects. That's pretty high, but as with all the other negative statistics on cousin marriages, this one is because of people engaging in the activity for numerous generations. This is clearly evident because if it was purely based in every type of cousin marriage, Pakistan should come out on top for birth defects, but that's not the case (we aren't even in the top 10). Secondly, 8% is far from majority.

Conclusion:

Cousin marriage is fine so long as it is not done over numerous generations. What should be regarded as numerous is up for debate, not enough research has been done to conclude at which point the line should be drawn, but you should steer away from the practice if anyone in your recent family history has engaged in the act, and when I say recent I mean if anyone later than your great great great grandfather married their cousin, it's a no-no for you unless some compatibility tests prove otherwise (and they have to be from a reliable hospital). This has to be followed so we can ensure people are born healthy and without problems, whilst still being fair to cultural norms among certain people.

@Hassan Guy @Mugwop @Oscar @Luffy 500 @waz @Kaptaan @Zaki @Nilgiri @SirHatesALot @nair @Windjammer @war&peace @PAKISTANFOREVER @OrionHunter @LA se Karachi @Doordie @Clutch @Chauvinist @Moonlight @Devil Soul @Tipu7 @WebMaster

This thread is not some serious study. Just a casual layman type pondering. Even for this level you made one significant mistake. The mistake was to cite Western sources. Why such blind faith in Western media and Western survey organization’s reports? Such organizations have their own agenda and seldom tell the truth. It is doubtful whether they even actually conduct any survey before publishing their ‘findings’.

A word-of-mouth information from close friends and relatives and your personal observation would be more authentic.

Which organization’s reports can be trusted then? Ultra-secret institutions like intelligence agencies of SOME Eastern countries like RAW, ISI, KGB, GRU etcetera are trustworthy. They really do their homework. But does the general public get access to their information?

Anyways my personal observation:
In my city, cousin-marriages and even avunculate (uncle-niece) marriages are frequent. I don’t know if these practices are waning. I am sure people are doing away with at least the system of avunculate marriage. I think I have seen some retards in my town. But I can’t say whether the number of retards are high because for that I have to compare the frequency of their sightings with that of other regions. Although my entire childhood was in another state, I can’t say anything because in childhood the judgment is distorted and hence I can't do the comparison of two states using the old memory's knowledge.

 

[Azadkashmir]

my turn:

i belive all this health problem is also related to bad food and lack of exercise,

did you know white sugar is considered drug and is proccessed similarily to cocaine.
http://macrobiotics.co.uk/sugar.htm

pakistani food is bad we need to re-organise our food must be natural and organic.

more veg,fruit and wholesome wholegrains and seed.

blueberries, almonds, kidney beans, walnuts, broccoli, tomatos etc.

exercise that is focused to the heart like cardio.

no presevatives, no chemicals, keep away from dairy products.

drink purified water using charcoal bamboo or kishu charcoal and also water alkaliner.

thinking and iq will improve.

oh pakistani chai forget it green tea.

i think we should be tested for compatibility for healthy baby before marrying cousin.

if doctors says the test are fine then you can touch up your cousin and 9 months later a baby is hatched.

 

[Bharat Muslim]

The Western countries are shown in light colour implying that cousin-marriage is rare there. Shall I present proof suggesting otherwise?? I will do so even before you ask or even if you don't ask.

See Austria is a Western country and other Western countries are similar to it, right? Therefore, what is true for Austria is nearly true for other Western countries. And below link shows what used to happen in Austria in olden days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

 

[Hamza913]

The Western countries are shown in light colour implying that cousin-marriage is rare there. Shall I present proof suggesting otherwise?? I will do so even before you ask or even if you don't ask.

See Austria is a Western country and other Western countries are similar to it, right? Therefore, what is true for Austria is nearly true for other Western countries. And below link shows what used to happen in Austria in olden days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

Key word being olden days. It's rarely happens now a days.

This thread is not some serious study. Just a casual layman type pondering. Even for this level you made one significant mistake. The mistake was to cite Western sources. Why such blind faith in Western media and Western survey organization’s reports? Such organizations have their own agenda and seldom tell the truth. It is doubtful whether they even actually conduct any survey before publishing their ‘findings’.

A word-of-mouth information from close friends and relatives and your personal observation would be more authentic.

Which organization’s reports can be trusted then? Ultra-secret institutions like intelligence agencies of SOME Eastern countries like RAW, ISI, KGB, GRU etcetera are trustworthy. They really do their homework. But does the general public get access to their information?

Anyways my personal observation:
In my city, cousin-marriages and even avunculate (uncle-niece) marriages are frequent. I don’t know if these practices are waning. I am sure people are doing away with at least the system of avunculate marriage. I think I have seen some retards in my town. But I can’t say whether the number of retards are high because for that I have to compare the frequency of their sightings with that of other regions. Although my entire childhood was in another state, I can’t say anything because in childhood the judgment is distorted and hence I can't do the comparison of two states using the old memory's knowledge.

Eastern sources have also given proof. In fact, two scientists in India were the ones who came up the whole IQ report.

It's clear that doing it over generations yields bad results. To what extent those bad results reach is unknown, further research is required for that matter.

I know Pakistanis avoid this topic but it's crucial to have an open and civilized dialogue. It has to STOP indefinitely, the consequences are brutal. Anyone who supports cousin marriages is downright ignorant. The main reasons people still do it is because of sheer laziness, convenience and wealth/property distribution (keeping it in the family), has nothing to do with religion lets be realistic.

Prophet also married a widow, a woman 15 years older than him, how many Pakistanis do you see doing that?

Another observation: Has anyone seen drama serials on HUM, ARY etc.? Majority of them involve cousins have relationships and getting married. This bullshit is promoted by media and ingrained into the culture. Ironically, all the actors are light skinned, healthy, tall, beautiful, green eyed who are mixed race. They are half Pakistani-British/French/Turkish etc. Yet they promote inbreeding

It's fine as long as it doesn't become a regular habit over generations.

my turn:

i belive all this health problem is also related to bad food and lack of exercise,

did you know white sugar is considered drug and is proccessed similarily to cocaine.
http://macrobiotics.co.uk/sugar.htm

pakistani food is bad we need to re-organise our food must be natural and organic.

more veg,fruit and wholesome wholegrains and seed.

blueberries, almonds, kidney beans, walnuts, broccoli, tomatos etc.

exercise that is focused to the heart like cardio.

no presevatives, no chemicals, keep away from dairy products.

drink purified water using charcoal bamboo or kishu charcoal and also water alkaliner.

thinking and iq will improve.

oh pakistani chai forget it green tea.

i think we should be tested for compatibility for healthy baby before marrying cousin.

if doctors says the test are fine then you can touch up your cousin and 9 months later a baby is hatched.

Unfortunately most people ignore those compatibility tests. But yes we need more emphasis on them.

 

[livingdead]

Key word being olden days. It's rarely happens now a days.



Eastern sources have also given proof. In fact, two scientists in India were the ones who came up the whole IQ report.

It's clear that doing it over generations yields bad results. To what extent those bad results reach is unknown, further research is required for that matter.



It's fine as long as it doesn't become a regular habit over generations.



Unfortunately most people ignore those compatibility tests. But yes we need more emphasis on them.

he just used a specific horrific case of abuse in one specific western country as proof that cousin "marriage" is widely practiced in west. You seriously think the poster has general common sense?

 

[saaju]

I don't see any problem here even in my family we have a lot of cousin marriage

 

[Bharat Muslim]

Eastern sources have also given proof. In fact, two scientists in India were the ones who came up the whole IQ report.

Clarify. Eastern scientists have given proof for what? What do they say? Is cousin marriage harmful or harmless?

 

[Hamza913]

Clarify. Eastern scientists have given proof for what? What do they say? Is cousin marriage harmful or harmless?

That it is harmful when done several times over generations. This is the same conclusion every scientist has reached. Some differ in how harmful, but what we do know is that it is a bad idea.

I don't see any problem here even in my family we have a lot of cousin marriage

Well then you are lucky guy or it's not as common as you think. Break the cycle before it's too late.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Is Thalassemia one of those diseases which are alleged to have high chances if there are cousin-marriages over many generations?

@dsr478

 

[Hamza913]

Is Thalassemia one of those diseases which are alleged to have high chances if there are cousin-marriages over many generations?

@dsr478

Yep.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

Cousin marriages major cause in thalassaemia spread

October 03, 2011

ISLAMABAD (APP) Cultural taboos and cousin marriages are major causes in spread of thalassaemia in Pakistan and the government needs to launch a national campaign to create more awareness about fatal disease.
There are about 80,000 children in Pakistan suffering from thalassaemia major, the most common fatal genetic disease in the world and additional over 5,000 children with thalassaemia born annually, Dr Lawrence Faulkner, Medical Advisory Board Coordinator, Cure2Children Foundation Italy told APP here on Sunday.
Dr.
Faulkner is also Coordinator of a two-year grant of Rs 50,000,000 from the Pakistani-Italian Dept-for-development Swap Agreement for a project on the cure and prevention of thalassaemia in Pakistan.
Emphasising on prevention, he called for a comprehensive national campaign involving all stakeholders on board to create awareness about deadly syndrome of thalassemia among the masses especially among poor people.
In Pakistan almost 75 percent thalassemia patients come from poor and uneducated families, he said adding expensive treatment is beyond their reach as each blood transfusion require Rs.
4000.
The therapy of this silent killer is much costly which also needs more and more contributions and donation of blood, he said.
Supportive care for this disease is a huge economic burden on affected families, being hian the average income.
As a consequence, the majority of children do not live beyond adolescence.
The cost of bone marrow transplantation is equivalent to a few years of supportive therapy, but contrary to this, provides a definitive cure, returning to normal life over 80 percent of children who have a compatible sibling.
Sighting Cousin Marriages and cultural taboos as major causes, he said both sexes hardly go for blood screening before marriage to prevent a child with fatal diseases.
Dr.
Faulkner said that in Italy every woman get under inductive screening thats why Italian nation remain successful in overcoming this disease along other nations like Iran and Cyprus.
In December 2010, C2C received a grant of 50 million PKR (approx.
?450,000) for the Cure & Prevention of thalassaemia major as part of the international debt-swap agreement between Italy and Pakistan (PIDSA - Pakistan Italian Debt-for development Swap Agreement).
As of August 2011 were 450 families registered who have been offered free screening, and a total of 60 children have undergone transplantation.
In the 30 low risk cases the success rate was 87 per cent, a result consistent with the original objective and comparable to that obtained in Italy and other rich countries.
In higher-risk children success has been in the 62 percent range, which is also an acceptable result which is gradually improving.
These results have been obtained with a cost about ten times lower than that in rich countries, not considering all the avoided inconvenience and hardship for the families involved and the contribution to the growth and motivation of local doctors and nurses.
Vincenzo Prati, Italian Ambassador in Pakistan assured that his country would provide all possible support to get rid of this disease.
Italy wants to be partner of Pakistan not because we are friend but we believe in Potential of Pakistan, he said.
Urging for expansion of treatment unit across the country, he said Pakistan could become hub for fight against thalassaemia in the region.

http://nation.com.pk/national/03-Oct-2011/Cousin-marriages-major-cause-in-thalassaemia-spread#

'Avoid cousin marriages to prevent thalassaemia'

By Our CorrespondentPublished: May 6, 2012

RAWALPINDI:
Cousin marriage is a major factor in producing children with thalassaemia, and it can be mitigated if potential spouses are screened for the disease.

This was the crux of discussions that kicked off the two-day 8th National Thalassaemia Conference on Saturday. The event is being held at Islamic International Medical College, a constituent institute of Riphah International University (RIU). Focused on raising awareness about the disease and publicising strategies to make Pakistan a thalassaemia-free country, the conference was organised in collaboration with Thalassaemia Federation of Pakistan (TFP).

TFP General Secretary Dr Yasmin Rashid said it is necessary for families with a history of thalassaemia to screen their children before marriage to help control the spread of the disease in Pakistan, where at present 5.5% people carry thalassaemia genes. She said if both parents have thalassaemia genes, there is a 50% chance their children would be thalassaemia minor, and a 25% chance that they would be thalassaemia major, patients.

In case the children are thalassaemia major, they would not be able to generate red blood cells and would require repeated blood transfusions every month just to survive.

Pre-natal test of the baby is a preventive measure that can be undertaken in which blood samples of the unborn baby are tested for thalassaemia genes.

Speakers urged the government to discourage cousin marriages and reduce the prices of life-saving drugs for thalassaemia patients.

Published in The Express Tribune, May 6th, 2012.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/374600/avoid-cousin-marriages-to-prevent-thalassaemia/

 

[Theparadox]

Well i remember reading something when i was searching about why its wrong to f**k your sister. It said that there is 1/4 chance that child would have genetic deformities, 1/8 chance for 1st cousin but 2nd cousin & beyond are considered best to be paired even better than non-cousins. Then i understand why there are some traditions in India for cousin marriages.

 

[Hamza913]

Well i remember reading something when i was searching about why its wrong to f**k your sister. It said that there is 1/4 chance that child would have genetic deformities, 1/8 chance for 1st cousin but 2nd cousin & beyond are considered best to be paired even better than non-cousins. Then i understand why there are some traditions in India for cousin marriages.

Well what you found out about cousins is wrong. The risk is significantly lower than 1/8th, most recent studies show the risk is a 0.5-2% increase from regular marriage.

Marrying your cousin isn't better than marrying your non cousin, it's best to marry someone as distantly related as possible for the most genetic diversity, but that doesn't make marrying your cousin wrong so long as it doesn't become a generational habit.

I'm going to open another thread on this since I've done some more research and this one is dead.

 

[xairhossi]

All of European royality is inbred, they have been marrying their cousins for ages. Inbred people thus have superior genes. jk.