Countering high-tech edge of IAF

[Srinivas]

The real threat to Pakistani Airforce is LCA !

 

[Trango Towers]

It's no mystery that IAF has an edge on tech and numbers on PAF, but this edge can in part be countered by aquiring different types of tech and employing different tactics.

Specifically I'd like to talk about S-400, SU-30MKI, Rafale.

What are our current options to counter them, what can we develop/deploy/purchase to counter them?

My thoughts

Rafale - we don't have a counter for it yet. If they aquire it, this aircraft with dominate any 1:1 air engagements. We need to purchase a solution, FC-31 is the solution i see.

SU-30MKI - Another great aircraft, IAF have it in good numbers, but it's huge RCS leave it vulnerable to early detection especially as we have AWACS. Could be engaged by F-16, JF-17 armed with SD-10 or AIM-120. They do have a big numerical advantage, but we have a lot of F-16 and JF-17 and it's not like they're going to fly them all over the border at once. Things would be helped if we bought more long range SAM's and any F-16's we can pick up here and there.

S-400 - A great defensive weapon, potentially could keep Indian airspace very safe. The only way around it is to target it. We could use ARM weaponry to target it, but the huge range of S-400 means we'd struggle to get close to it. The key to taking out this weapon will be numbers. It can target 36 threats at a time, number 37 and number 38 get through. It won't be cheap to target it though, whats the cost of 30 missiles which can reach 300km away!

Any better ideas, i'm sure you guys are more clued up than i am.

S400... lots of drones fire them simultaniouly and they will engage the sams. They position will be given away and also missiles will be wasted.
Rafale.....pakistan has a very effective way.....they suck these guys in and bring them low and engage in cqb dogfighting. Guess what....theh outcome wont be what the indian planners expect. Pakistabi pilots are masters at this
S30 again same senario.

 

[Crypto]

This is not about deterrence, its just introducing new platforms and newer capabilities so that pakistan spends its resources countering its always about imposing costs.

The bottom line is, we have always responded to indian arm race in a calculated manner. So impose what you want.. US is preparing you fight their war against China

 

[Fireurimagination]

I think that IAF's strategy for a future war with Pakistan is to keep the entire war in Pakistan's Airspace and PAF defending the entire time and S-400 fits the bill perfectly for that.

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

I don't know much about the Rafale except that it's a pretty good 4.5th Generation Fighter Aircraft. Pakistan's counter to this will likely be JF-17 Block III's which have begun rolling out I think. They have better Radar systems, more upgrades and will feature better engines and thrusters too, it is going to be on par with other 4.5 Generation Fighters in the world. The JF-17 Block III's will be faster compared to Rafales while Block II and Block I are on par in compared to speed. I don't know how the manoeuvrability compares though. But only time will tell, although from seeing what kind of upgrades they plan to bring to JF-17 Block III, I think it will be able to compete. Also, side note that JF-17 is designed in way that it can be upgraded very easily in the future as the need arises and better, more advanced components are made, so it is a very feasible aircraft which can be brought on par with time without the need to dump and get a completely new aircraft.

Don't know anything about SU-30MKI, but to note is that F-16 and JF-17 as well perhaps have better manoeuvrability compared to SU-30MKI. So F-16, and JF-17 if it's flying is similar to F-16 as PAF pilots claim, are going to be tough to beat in a dogfight. However, SU-30MKI does have more advanced components although it still lacks AESA radars Russia has been attempting or called for to install back in 2012, I believe. Furthermore, the F-16 and JF-17 have a lower signature radius, so they're pretty evasive. Overall, I would say the main advantage SU-30MKI gets over F-16 and JF-17 would be from range and long-range missiles, however in a visual-range dogfight, I think F-16 and JF-17 would have the edge over the SU-30MKI. Some people also make mention of Thrust Vectoring capability of SU-30MKI, I feel like it doesn't really help a whole lot in a fight, even if it does, it has its disadvantages too, as thrust vectoring causes the aircraft to slow down and the general physics change, will need an experienced pilot to take advantage of it to the fullest.

As for S-400. Not too sure, one of the counters that Pakistan has are MIRV missiles, which Pakistan recently developed in 2017 and successfully tested it, naming the missile Ababeel. These missiles can carry multiple warheads which can detach from their host missile mid air and simultaneously thrust towards their individual targets. So, it sort of tricks an Air Defense system into thinking it's only one missile. Now, how good of a counter it is depends on the stats of S-400, speed of the missile itself, range, velocity of S-400 interceptor missiles, the height at which the MIRV missiles are able to detach and the height the individual warheads are able to retain, the type of missiles an S-400 has in stock (a single S-400 has maximum capability of 48 missiles and 9 launchers) and the type of missile it is loaded with because a single S-400 uses four type of missiles, very-long range, long range, medium range and short range. India is buying 5 battalions of S-400. So, if Pakistan further develops it's MIRV Missile Ababeel and produces more and better variants, it can potentially serve as a counter. Another counter Pakistan has is the Babur Cruise Missile which has a high degree of manoeuvrability including terrain masking to avoid detection by radar and other capabilities giving it a lot of stealth and evasion, so this can also serve as a counter. Potential counters in future, if possible, in my opinion would be ECM-related technology, or jamming in other words. But it's hard to say if Pakistan goes in direction, or what Pakistan is looking at to act as a counter for the S-400, but the future really is ECM warfare if perfected.

Also to note, the S-400 systems are also in service with Algeria and Belarus.

We will see the first BLOCK 3 by 2019-2020

 

[CHI RULES]

Any HQ9 latest variant should suffice Pakistan long range defense requirements, meanwhile ground based air defense should be layered by combining HQ9, LY 80 and HQ7 should not only be effective but may cost much lesser than S400.

For Rafael/SU30 Pak should go for JF17 block 3 with superior gadgets to tackle them rather than focusing on economy.

 

[YeBeWarned]

The real threat to Pakistani Airforce is LCA !

yes I agree .. as Pakistani radars will be searching LAC in the Air , while LCA will be on a truck back and shoot lasers

 

[Ultima Thule]

The real threat to Pakistani Airforce is LCA !

A good one @Srinivas

 

[Lincoln]

Can we use couple of ababeels with conventional warheads against s400 batteries?

Really hard to say because the very specific details regarding how MIRV missiles exactly operate is not, for obvious reasons, public information. As in, we don't know how high Ababeel goes, what is its speed, whether or not the individual warheads can retain height, what is the warheads speed, it all needs to be accounted for if you want to calculate the probability of using Ababeels successfully against S-400 batteries. I can see it being used successfully, perhaps, maybe, but will require better variants of Ababeel capable of carrying more warheads and warheads which can potentially achieve a great amount of speeds. But again, this is only speculation. We don't know the very specifics to calculate probability, and even if we did, it's hard to predict how applicable it is practically. In the past there have been weapons produced by Russia thought to be a game changer, including a SAM in 1960's or 1970's which was thought to be indigenous and a game changer but when it was deployed for combat, it had a success rate of 3%. Similarly, there have been many events in history where the so-called advanced aircrafts of that time have taken a beating from average-tier fighters. So, only time and its use in combat will tell. S-400 did get deployed in Syria by Russia and saw some combat there, I think although I haven't read of anything regarding it, but one of the potential denting to it comes from the recent incident where the S-400 system shot down a Russian plane in Syria which ended up with Syria and Russia blaming it on Israel saying that the Israeli F-16's were using the cover of Russian aircrafts to avoid being shot at or detected by the S-400 system or something along those lines, while Israel denied this citing that their plane was well back at the Israeli border when the Russian plane, which was far, was shot down by S-400.

 

[khanmubashir]

It's no mystery that IAF has an edge on tech and numbers on PAF, but this edge can in part be countered by aquiring different types of tech and employing different tactics.

Specifically I'd like to talk about S-400, SU-30MKI, Rafale.

What are our current options to counter them, what can we develop/deploy/purchase to counter them?

My thoughts

Rafale - we don't have a counter for it yet. If they aquire it, this aircraft with dominate any 1:1 air engagements. We need to purchase a solution, FC-31 is the solution i see.

SU-30MKI - Another great aircraft, IAF have it in good numbers, but it's huge RCS leave it vulnerable to early detection especially as we have AWACS. Could be engaged by F-16, JF-17 armed with SD-10 or AIM-120. They do have a big numerical advantage, but we have a lot of F-16 and JF-17 and it's not like they're going to fly them all over the border at once. Things would be helped if we bought more long range SAM's and any F-16's we can pick up here and there.

S-400 - A great defensive weapon, potentially could keep Indian airspace very safe. The only way around it is to target it. We could use ARM weaponry to target it, but the huge range of S-400 means we'd struggle to get close to it. The key to taking out this weapon will be numbers. It can target 36 threats at a time, number 37 and number 38 get through. It won't be cheap to target it though, whats the cost of 30 missiles which can reach 300km away!

Any better ideas, i'm sure you guys are more clued up than i am.

Can we use couple of ababeels with conventional warheads against s400 batteries?

Redundant most feasible would be launching Babar in number at the batteries or radar station
Also can use ground based radar jammers to feed false signal to confuse guiding radar

 

[Srinivas]

A good one @Srinivas

LCA is 4.5 gen and we can manufacture as many as we can

 

[Storm Force]

During the massive gagan shakti exercises and war simulation India chiefs have suggested they achieved air supremacy over Pakistan their eastern border in just six days.
On the seventh day they started to reinforce their northern bases against the Plaaf which can maintain no more three hundred planes at present in Tibet.

That's good enough for now as gagan shakti did not include deployed rafale or the S400 abm system as these start arriving 2019/2022.

No matter how you cut it Indian addition of these two new systems are ten times the fire power and defense posture of your only pending addition which is upgraded thunder in these time frames.

Indian addition of S400.and rafales is costing 13 billion dollars versis your only addition of fifty more block three thunders costing what 2.billion if that.

Of course the gap will get bigger quality wise Indian arsenal includes systems you can't match today
S400
Rafale
Mki
Phalcon AWACS
Brahmos cruise missles

 

[SQ8]

The real threat to Indian Airforce is LCA !

Corrected

During the massive gagan shakti exercises and war simulation India chiefs have suggested they achieved air supremacy over Pakistan their eastern border in just six days.
On the seventh day they started to reinforce their northern bases against the Plaaf which can maintain no more three hundred planes at present in Tibet.

That's good enough for now as gagan shakti did not include deployed rafale or the S400 abm system as these start arriving 2019/2022.

No matter how you cut it Indian addition of these two new systems are ten times the fire power and defense posture of your only pending addition which is upgraded thunder in these time frames.

Indian addition of S400.and rafales is costing 13 billion dollars versis your only addition of fifty more block three thunders costing what 2.billion if that.

Of course the gap will get bigger quality wise Indian arsenal includes systems you can't match today
S400
Rafale
Mki
Phalcon AWACS
Brahmos cruise missles

Mr India and mogambo scenarios.

Closing thread as plenty of discussion exists elsewhere