Countering Cold Start doctrine by PAF

[Dazzler]

Wow... .I admire u man.I dont agree with u regarding certain points but i hope your post will open the eyes of some of your Pakistani brothers who consider India inferior.

As a matter of fact, it is the other way around. Simplest example is to have a look at comments made by Indian members on different internet forums. Who needs to open eyes then?

 

[Ganga]

As a matter of fact, it is the other way around. Simplest example is to have a look at comments made by Indian members on different internet forums. Who needs to open eyes then?

i am talking abt this forum and not any other forum.

 

[Spring Onion]

Wow... .I admire u man.I dont agree with u regarding certain points but i hope your post will open the eyes of some of your Pakistani brothers who consider India inferior.

NO one is considering India as inferior here. The point is that a conventional war is not going to be started by anyone as its going to be damaging for all.

The akhand bharat is NOT possible in anyway in the current scenario neither we think India can achieve it.


BUT yes the Indian two front war using Cold Start doctrine is there since last few years, its not a new thing. The Indians have been thinking of surgical strikes and i feel they can make it possible in coming future, the aim of which is not conquering Pakistan but inflicting as much damage as India can.

It would depend on mobilisation time for Pakistan, that if we will be able to shoot Indian jets down before they can inflict damage on us.

 

[Joe Shearer]

1st of all attatude of most of the Pakistani in this forum is very over confident...they talk and think as if Pakistan Airforce and Pakistan Army will be party boys and Indians are just junks. PA and PAF will be doing everything and they will be having all the plans and indians are idiots who will simply send C17 and C130 to pakistan full of soldiers so that we can hve some target practise.

Dear fellows this thing is not as simple as it looks. we hve to accept not just verbally that India has got a milatry might and now economic might too. india has got US, UK, Russia, EU and Israel behind their back. they can and they are purchasing world best state of the art equipment. they are hand in hand doing various milatry excercises. i work in dubai in a financial company with 300 indians are just 2 Pakistani. indian mentality is changing. they want to invest in their own country and in the company belonging to their own country. they want to invest in Rupee rather then $. although they dont hve balls to stand against us 2 pakistani.

Scenerio is changing, most of Pakistani bellive india wants to invade Pakistan for akhand Bharat. guys their mentality has changes they dont want to invade Pakistan anymore. they simply want Pakistan to be separate nation physically but under Indias influence.

now we hve got not just corrupt government but corrup people as well who simply dont want to elect any1 other then corruption. we hve got many examples. we are in the worst flood crisis in our history, worst economic conditions, worst inflation worst governence, milatry fighting worst war will death toll more then 1965 and 1971 war. ISI fighting at many fronts( CIA, MI6, RAW, Mosad, TTP, Afgan Intelegence) no body bother to ask abt their families when they were being beheaded by TTP. no body bother to ask why we had suffered so much of casulties and wat steps Gov or GHQ has taken to minimise it. $5billion of defence budget still buys 42 JF17 on soft loan, proudly accepting that China has agreed to provide another soft loan on FC 20 and standerds equal to europian nation.

I am not insulting my country or India. i just want my Pakistani brothers to face reality. i might be wrong plz correct me. maybe this is because i live outside the country see Indians and when see Pakistani i feel ashame and cant find any other way to express.
Most of the people here spend most of the time prasing JF17 and do nothing else.JF 17 is good fighter no dloubt abt it. I hve put its pic on my Laptop and all indians ask me name of this plane and when i tell them i wish u guys see their faces. but we hve to be productive using this forum and spread our voices and make good use of this forum.

we make fun of India by saying that they are affraid of us and thats why their FM cry in the US not to supply F16 or other equipment. fellows its not that they are affraid, they hve fought 3 wars with us in the past and they can still fight. the reason they cry is because they want absolute victory over us. not just milatarally but mentally. They want to win war from us without firing a bullet from our side. we cry like Palestiniams or Lebenese and they bomb us and show attatude to the world like Israel. they want to show the world that they are a power and they deserve to be treated like super power. India dont want to fight like a normal war which will end up their dream of shining India. they are preparing themselves for Cold Start doctrine and this is wat they will implement sooner or later..

Dear Sir,

I have to admit I am impressed at your insight and understanding. The difference is that you have used your opportunities to observe others and to try and understand their psyche. The shallow and inadequate (One Pakistani soldier is equal to ten Indian soldiers) kind of responses you have got is due to lack of exposure of those concerned.

While it is difficult to agree with all points of your comment, it is a much more thoughtful and perceptive post than many others.

You are to be felicitated.

My questions to you:

1. What military steps would you recommend be taken against Cold Start?
2. What in your opinion will be the IA strategy against the PA?
3. In your opinion, does Pakistan possess a military counter?
4. What non-military response to Cold Start, including peace moves, would you recommend be taken by the Government of Pakistan, most of all, by the Foreign Ministry, to stave off the threat to Pakistan's integrity from Cold Start and the general strategic imbalance?

Sincerely,

 

[forcetrip]

1st of all attatude of most of the Pakistani in this forum is very over confident...they talk and think as if Pakistan Airforce and Pakistan Army will be party boys and Indians are just junks. PA and PAF will be doing everything and they will be having all the plans and indians are idiots who will simply send C17 and C130 to pakistan full of soldiers so that we can hve some target practise.

Dear fellows this thing is not as simple as it looks. we hve to accept not just verbally that India has got a milatry might and now economic might too. india has got US, UK, Russia, EU and Israel behind their back. they can and they are purchasing world best state of the art equipment. they are hand in hand doing various milatry excercises. i work in dubai in a financial company with 300 indians are just 2 Pakistani. indian mentality is changing. they want to invest in their own country and in the company belonging to their own country. they want to invest in Rupee rather then $. although they dont hve balls to stand against us 2 pakistani.

Scenerio is changing, most of Pakistani bellive india wants to invade Pakistan for akhand Bharat. guys their mentality has changes they dont want to invade Pakistan anymore. they simply want Pakistan to be separate nation physically but under Indias influence.

now we hve got not just corrupt government but corrup people as well who simply dont want to elect any1 other then corruption. we hve got many examples. we are in the worst flood crisis in our history, worst economic conditions, worst inflation worst governence, milatry fighting worst war will death toll more then 1965 and 1971 war. ISI fighting at many fronts( CIA, MI6, RAW, Mosad, TTP, Afgan Intelegence) no body bother to ask abt their families when they were being beheaded by TTP. no body bother to ask why we had suffered so much of casulties and wat steps Gov or GHQ has taken to minimise it. $5billion of defence budget still buys 42 JF17 on soft loan, proudly accepting that China has agreed to provide another soft loan on FC 20 and standerds equal to europian nation.

I am not insulting my country or India. i just want my Pakistani brothers to face reality. i might be wrong plz correct me. maybe this is because i live outside the country see Indians and when see Pakistani i feel ashame and cant find any other way to express.
Most of the people here spend most of the time prasing JF17 and do nothing else.JF 17 is good fighter no dloubt abt it. I hve put its pic on my Laptop and all indians ask me name of this plane and when i tell them i wish u guys see their faces. but we hve to be productive using this forum and spread our voices and make good use of this forum.

we make fun of India by saying that they are affraid of us and thats why their FM cry in the US not to supply F16 or other equipment. fellows its not that they are affraid, they hve fought 3 wars with us in the past and they can still fight. the reason they cry is because they want absolute victory over us. not just milatarally but mentally. They want to win war from us without firing a bullet from our side. we cry like Palestiniams or Lebenese and they bomb us and show attatude to the world like Israel. they want to show the world that they are a power and they deserve to be treated like super power. India dont want to fight like a normal war which will end up their dream of shining India. they are preparing themselves for Cold Start doctrine and this is wat they will implement sooner or later..

I would choose your post over all other well written propaganda on this site anyday. We need more speaking from the heart and less articles praising our democratic process which seems to be failing every single day. By every single day I mean that "every single day" there is a new super case of fail. Its like not wanting to watch TV because you are numb to both your cricket team and your news.

 

[Ganga]

NO one is considering India as inferior here. The point is that a conventional war is not going to be started by anyone as its going to be damaging for all.

The akhand bharat is NOT possible in anyway in the current scenario neither we think India can achieve it.


BUT yes the Indian two front war using Cold Start doctrine is there since last few years, its not a new thing. The Indians have been thinking of surgical strikes and i feel they can make it possible in coming future, the aim of which is not conquering Pakistan but inflicting as much damage as India can.

It would depend on mobilisation time for Pakistan, that if we will be able to shoot Indian jets down before they can inflict damage on us.

At which point of time did India want to conquer Pakistan?Such mentality does not exist anywhere in India.

 

[Dazzler]

i am talking abt this forum and not any other forum.

And I am talking about overall superiority complex found in Indian members including this forum (with the exception of few). Just look at trolling attempts made by some Indian members that are so disgusting they don't worth mentioning

 

[Dazzler]

At which point of time did India want to conquer Pakistan?Such mentality does not exist anywhere in India.

Which world you live in buddy? Akhand Bharat mentality is the creation of Indian think tanks which is comprised of almost whole of Sub-continent. Again, google it.......

 

[Ganga]

Which world you live in buddy? Akhand Bharat mentality is the creation of Indian think tanks which is comprised of almost whole of Sub-continent. Again, google it.......

We are happy with what we have.We already have a lot of problems and dont want to burden ourselves anymore.We dont want Pakistan and Bangladesh.An average Indian even in his wildest dream will not think of conquering Pakistan.

 

[HariSeldon]

Dear Mr. Seldon,

I am glad you liked it. When did you get back from Trantor?

Dear Joe,

Have you never been to Trantor? I can tap into any worlds Information Network while sitting here. ;-)

Indeed it will. But Punjab is no longer the preferred battle-field. It has been extended to much further south.

As the Indian Army stretches the theatre boundaries, the Pakistan Army will be under more and more strain. It is possible for India to win a future war even before it starts with the right order of battle and configuration in place.



When you refer to no groundwork regarding quick deployment or basing BG near border, I presume you are referring to Battle Groups as BG. If so, the whole point of Cold Start is to allow the Holding Corps to initiate action from their position close to the international borders, and to allow the Battle Groups to move up from their peacetime positions to their forward positions without slowing down the tempo of action.

There is still need to move the Battle Groups fast. This has to be done by three separate exercises:

1. Restructuring the formations into Battle Groups (the reasons why Battle Groups are needed, and no longer Brigades and Divisions, should be carefully studied and understood);
2. An extensive re-working of railway lines, highways and airfields well behind the front lines need to be built up, capable of moving large numbers of troops in a short while;
3. The composition of the battlefield mobility resources at the disposal of the Indian Army has to be changed drastically, urgently, away from soft-skinned wheeled vehicles to tracked, protected vehicles.

On a bigger framework, it means this: The Indian Cabinet has to decide if it wants total war or not. In case of total war, it has to be clear where and when it will stop, that is, where and when will there be six hours before the nuclear tripwire is tripped.

In strategic terms, the Indian Army has to decide where along Pakistan's borders (not India's borders with Pakistan) should the attack be launched.

In operational terms, the IA and IAF and IN have to build joint battle groups, with integral air and naval components incorporated.

In tactics, the IA has to practise hard and often with its embedded air force elements and its embedded naval elements to enforce 'jointness' in organic level.

Spot on, like always. And when we look for groundwork, not much has been done. As you correctly pointed out, here GoI has to take a call.
Now one other major point that we have to also consider that CS is IA doctrine. Nothing in public domain tells us that IN and IAF has bought this.
So either GoI is trying to get all 3 on board and all 3 wings are trying to iron out there issues (Even in this case there has to be some progress regarding formation changes, new construction near border, new aquisitions for rapid deployment of Battle Groups) OR GoI is on different line of thinking (which is sounds very illogical as that Army and Govt will have different POV for so long).
Given the way IN and IAF is moving ahead with mordenisation my feeling is that CS is either different animal or boggeyman.
PS: In this forum and other forums a common remark from IA personal (IndianArmy sir in PDF) is that basic tennants of CS is interpreted in wrong way.

 

[muse]

And I thought we had lunes, reading the above post, an entire infrastructure dedicated to a invasion of nuclear adversary - lunes.

 

[HariSeldon]

And I thought we had lunes, reading the above post, an entire infrastructure dedicated to a invasion of nuclear adversary - lunes.

Are you quoting my post? Didn't get you?

 

[muse]

I was refering to Joe Shearer and your posts as examples of thinking from the lunatic fringe. Just when India after a super human effort to put a dent in poverty and create lives of dignity, can at least raise her head with pride, the lunatic fringe envision the creation of an entire infrastructure deicated to the invasionof a adversary whose reliance on battle field tactical nukes seems to have escaped your attention. just plain stupid!

 

[banned]

Has Indian factored in 50-60 million "volunteer forces" which would surge up in "mujahideen" type battle groups?

 

[HariSeldon]

I was refering to Joe Shearer and your posts as examples of thinking from the lunatic fringe. Just when India after a super human effort to put a dent in poverty and create lives of dignity, can at least raise her head with pride, the lunatic fringe envision the creation of an entire infrastructure deicated to the invasionof a adversary whose reliance on battle field tactical nukes seems to have escaped your attention. just plain stupid!

That's insightful.
BTW since you have those nukes + you strategy for first use of them, Why don't you disband your armed forces. Why build more JF which cannt deliver nukes? I guess between 2 of us, you are in more need of $$.

Regarding use of tactical nukes, tell me if IN forces are inside PK land, will you use your tactical nukes on them ?

So what should we discuss on defence forum? Toilets in IN?