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Countering Cold Start doctrine by PAF

Somehow poor Shanixee plea of not derailing this thread has gone unheard :D ..
We are back to MQM bashing.. soon it will turn into a racist fest.

However, prototype has found the vein of the transport purchase's actual purpose, Being able to rapidly deploy troops to bases or makeshift postions just behind the border where a possible surprise attack could be mounted. However, the advantage such a maneuver would have given in terms of time has been greatly reduced with the Induction of AEW systems. Since it would be fairly difficult for an airborne transport force to go undetected anywhere close to the border. However, the prospect of using this fleet to rapidly resupply established forward bases is still very good.
This capability was sorely missed during the 2001 standoff since a two pronged attack via Kashmir and in the Desert plains was planned and about to be executed( the much rumored last minute diplomacy by the Americans prevented the first phase of this attack..through the desert..from happening).

In any case, the crux of Cold start is built on rapid movement and destruction of Pakistani forces ala Desert Storm. And rapid resupply of fast moving troops mandates a fast and adaptive supply line for the attacking force. Something which will most likely fall on C-17s and C-130s supplying to forward operating hubs while the Heli's and possibly the An-32 moving it forward to the immediate lines.
 
Somehow poor Shanixee plea of not derailing this thread has gone unheard :D ..
We are back to MQM bashing.. soon it will turn into a racist fest.

However, prototype has found the vein of the transport purchase's actual purpose, Being able to rapidly deploy troops to bases or makeshift postions just behind the border where a possible surprise attack could be mounted. However, the advantage such a maneuver would have given in terms of time has been greatly reduced with the Induction of AEW systems. Since it would be fairly difficult for an airborne transport force to go undetected anywhere close to the border. However, the prospect of using this fleet to rapidly resupply established forward bases is still very good.
This capability was sorely missed during the 2001 standoff since a two pronged attack via Kashmir and in the Desert plains was planned and about to be executed( the much rumored last minute diplomacy by the Americans prevented the first phase of this attack..through the desert..from happening).

In any case, the crux of Cold start is built on rapid movement and destruction of Pakistani forces ala Desert Storm. And rapid resupply of fast moving troops mandates a fast and adaptive supply line for the attacking force. Something which will most likely fall on C-17s and C-130s supplying to forward operating hubs while the Heli's and possibly the An-32 moving it forward to the immediate lines.

Thanks for reading my thread and giving some very important opinion of urs....:victory:
 
But you can't distinguish between a plane loaded with troops and those loaded with say...watermelons.

So in a time of war it would be prudent to assign airlift resources for watermelons??? :what:

Maybe they should let some kids have joyrides too..and let kingfisher take its next babe calender airborne next to the border??

Even then .. I would think that whether its carrying watermelons, bimbos or supplies. An aircraft moving towards the frontline and then landing at a place close to the border would be regarded as hostile.
 
Somehow poor Shanixee plea of not derailing this thread has gone unheard :D ..
We are back to MQM bashing.. soon it will turn into a racist fest.

However, prototype has found the vein of the transport purchase's actual purpose, Being able to rapidly deploy troops to bases or makeshift postions just behind the border where a possible surprise attack could be mounted. However, the advantage such a maneuver would have given in terms of time has been greatly reduced with the Induction of AEW systems. Since it would be fairly difficult for an airborne transport force to go undetected anywhere close to the border. However, the prospect of using this fleet to rapidly resupply established forward bases is still very good.
This capability was sorely missed during the 2001 standoff since a two pronged attack via Kashmir and in the Desert plains was planned and about to be executed( the much rumored last minute diplomacy by the Americans prevented the first phase of this attack..through the desert..from happening).

In any case, the crux of Cold start is built on rapid movement and destruction of Pakistani forces ala Desert Storm. And rapid resupply of fast moving troops mandates a fast and adaptive supply line for the attacking force. Something which will most likely fall on C-17s and C-130s supplying to forward operating hubs while the Heli's and possibly the An-32 moving it forward to the immediate lines.

Gentlemen,

I believe Shanixee had a point. I believe that it was a completely mistaken point, based on some misunderstanding of what 'Cold Start' is. It was, however, extremely surprising to see a highly knowledgeable commentator failing to set things right and to put a perspective on things.

First, a brief word about the peacetime establishment and positions of the respective armies, from Pakistan and India. A look at the map will indicate that, for wars to be fought mainly in the Punjab, the Pakistan Army is uniquely well-placed to deploy quickly from its peace-time stations and reach its selected lines of defence.

This is, ironically, the flip side of Pakistan's lack of strategic depth, that the GHQ has been so agitated about. Lack of strategic depth also means that all the resources are within a short march of the deployment areas, and also, taking things in an attacking context, as has been done in 65 as well as in 71, to mount a rapid attack on weak points in the Indian defences.

By contrast, the Indian Army has neither had the cantonments, bases and establishment that would enable rapid deployment, nor has its growth been entirely Pakistan-centric.

A quick look at the map will show what the situation is. Both the PA's Corps level and Division level locations (in normal times; there has obviously been some dislocation due to disturbances on the western borders) and the IA's corresponding locations are clearly marked.

Second, we need to consider what happened when IA tried out the rapid mobilisation scenario in live exercises, given the above state of affairs.

Nothing happened.

It was a bloody mess. The IA has overwhelming strength against the PA. In practice, it was found, little of this could be delivered with the old, pre-independence style of barracks and peace-time establishments, division of troops and order of battle, logistics and basic doctrine, both at strategic levels and command and control levels.

A full mobilisation would take so long that Pakistan's friends and allies would stop the development of hostilities well in time to prevent any major damage.

The Indian Army therefore took up a re-thinking along several axes:
  1. Dividing responsibilities between Strike Corps and Holding Corps;
  2. Assigning quick-reaction tasks and duties to the Holding Corps, which were effectively those troops deployed close to the border and ready to move at relatively short notice);
  3. Reform of the Strike Corps into Battle Groups, to follow on the initial wave of development of the front by the holding corps;
  4. Close air-land integration, far beyond what had been attempted before;
  5. A significant enlarging of the theatre of combat by bringing troops in the southern sector into a line capable of rapid deployment against the PA;
  6. A deep-strike capability using special operations forces deep behind the front;

What this sought to achieve was a meaningful use of forward echelons, hitherto earmarked for defensive operations, and the understanding that the strike corps needed to be smaller, more agile units, capable either of following up on the holding corps attacks, or of counter-attacking PA ripostes and counters. It also sought to knit together superior strength on the ground and superior strength in the air to achieve multiplicative results in a South Asian prototype of air-land battle.

So what is the point of all this?

The point is that there is nothing in the Cold Start doctrine that requires significant airlift across major distances. Other geopolitical circumstances do.

The point is that the IA is equipoised between its focus on Pakistan and its focus on China. While the Mountain Divisions really ought not to be deployed on the plains, or the plains divisions in the mountains, war does not permit these niceties.

The IA has the need to move formations rapidly between the western front, the northern front and the eastern front. Neither India nor any other country can afford to have three different military organisations for each theatre that is likely to develop. So the high-performance military transport aircraft are not intended to drop swarms of para-troopers into Pakistan; they are intended to transport troops and armour across very long distances.

My suggestion to my friends is that Pakistan has little to fear from these purchases. The time to panic is when the Indian Air Force buys 250 SU 25s or A10s, and the Indian Army buys 300 attack helicopters. Transport aircraft won't hurt; these may.

Sincerely,
 
If PAF targers one transport aircraft with SAM, it will render into a meaninful troop loss as well strategic loss of transport medium. The cold start pretext was presented in failed american incursions in Iraq and Afghanistan. Capability to deliver troops and ammunition rapidly into enemy terriotery is by no means a sure success to victory. Even disorganised talibans rendered it nil and India has not learned the lesson. Success of a war lies in being able to deliver a massive blow to enemy without risking full scale invasion. Read pakistan role in afghan-soviet war.
 
@ Shanixee: A Very Good Post which i truly agree with you.
As far as our country is concerned then i should say lets all kick out this zardari and Co.(Altaf, Rehman, Gilanni) asap couz they are a disgrace to our country and nation. Or else whatever u predicted will surely become true one day. Im not trying to offend ppl but reality hurts. for example if it was some other country who had floods, their president/PM wouldnt go outside the country rather would stay and help either financial or just visiting areas. Unlike our Country, where The noob(Zardari) is out on his Honeymoon with White ppl, when his country needs him there. Sad yet true!. Somethings needs to be done ASAP. Add to that Karachi Killings, I would say they are also done by Indian Agents(eg: Altaf Husain). As well as so called "Terrorists/Suicide bombers" All done by Indians to destabalize Pak.

Believe it OR not!![/QUOTE]

I believe Not - Its pure fantasy.
 
Tx for wonderful post Joe.
First, a brief word about the peacetime establishment and positions of the respective armies, from Pakistan and India. A look at the map will indicate that, for wars to be fought mainly in the Punjab, the Pakistan Army is uniquely well-placed to deploy quickly from its peace-time stations and reach its selected lines of defence.
I had doubt regarding Punjab being main theater of conflict. Given the array of canals along IN-PK border, don't you think it will be major bottleneck for PA for any corp level ops?

Regarding CS, I am not sure if anybody have idea what this is all about. While we hear lot about CS, there is no groundwork regarding quick deployment or basing BG near border have been done. I have feeling this is something else. Either its boggeyman or we are interpreting in wrong way.
 
I wouldn't worry about the cold start doctrine if I were the general public, let me just inform you that the PAF and Pak Army have it covered, the rest is classified.........
 
Tx for wonderful post Joe.

Dear Mr. Seldon,

I am glad you liked it. When did you get back from Trantor?

I had doubt regarding Punjab being main theater of conflict. Given the array of canals along IN-PK border, don't you think it will be major bottleneck for PA for any corp level ops?

Indeed it will. But Punjab is no longer the preferred battle-field. It has been extended to much further south.

As the Indian Army stretches the theatre boundaries, the Pakistan Army will be under more and more strain. It is possible for India to win a future war even before it starts with the right order of battle and configuration in place.

Regarding CS, I am not sure if anybody have idea what this is all about. While we hear lot about CS, there is no groundwork regarding quick deployment or basing BG near border have been done. I have feeling this is something else. Either its boggeyman or we are interpreting in wrong way.

When you refer to no groundwork regarding quick deployment or basing BG near border, I presume you are referring to Battle Groups as BG. If so, the whole point of Cold Start is to allow the Holding Corps to initiate action from their position close to the international borders, and to allow the Battle Groups to move up from their peacetime positions to their forward positions without slowing down the tempo of action.

There is still need to move the Battle Groups fast. This has to be done by three separate exercises:
  1. Restructuring the formations into Battle Groups (the reasons why Battle Groups are needed, and no longer Brigades and Divisions, should be carefully studied and understood);
  2. An extensive re-working of railway lines, highways and airfields well behind the front lines need to be built up, capable of moving large numbers of troops in a short while;
  3. The composition of the battlefield mobility resources at the disposal of the Indian Army has to be changed drastically, urgently, away from soft-skinned wheeled vehicles to tracked, protected vehicles.

On a bigger framework, it means this: The Indian Cabinet has to decide if it wants total war or not. In case of total war, it has to be clear where and when it will stop, that is, where and when will there be six hours before the nuclear tripwire is tripped.

In strategic terms, the Indian Army has to decide where along Pakistan's borders (not India's borders with Pakistan) should the attack be launched.

In operational terms, the IA and IAF and IN have to build joint battle groups, with integral air and naval components incorporated.

In tactics, the IA has to practise hard and often with its embedded air force elements and its embedded naval elements to enforce 'jointness' in organic level.
 
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The point is that there is nothing in the Cold Start doctrine that requires significant airlift across major distances. Other geopolitical circumstances do.

Sir to me in present time war time is the biggest asset. IA does need it because it needs to move it reserves from eastern boarders to western border. More time they will close more advantage they will have. Its not only dropping of para troopers deep into Pakistani territory.
 
Sir to me in present time war time is the biggest asset. IA does need it because it needs to move it reserves from eastern boarders to western border. More time they will close more advantage they will have. Its not only dropping of para troopers deep into Pakistani territory.

Dear Sir,

Precisely. Indeed, a shrewd insight.

You may have overlooked this passage in my post:

The point is that there is nothing in the Cold Start doctrine that requires significant airlift across major distances. Other geopolitical circumstances do.

The point is that the IA is equipoised between its focus on Pakistan and its focus on China. While the Mountain Divisions really ought not to be deployed on the plains, or the plains divisions in the mountains, war does not permit these niceties.

The IA has the need to move formations rapidly between the western front, the northern front and the eastern front.


It appears that we find ourselves in agreement.

Sincerely,
 
1st of all attatude of most of the Pakistani in this forum is very over confident...they talk and think as if Pakistan Airforce and Pakistan Army will be party boys and Indians are just junks. PA and PAF will be doing everything and they will be having all the plans and indians are idiots who will simply send C17 and C130 to pakistan full of soldiers so that we can hve some target practise.

Dear fellows this thing is not as simple as it looks. we hve to accept not just verbally that India has got a milatry might and now economic might too. india has got US, UK, Russia, EU and Israel behind their back. they can and they are purchasing world best state of the art equipment. they are hand in hand doing various milatry excercises. i work in dubai in a financial company with 300 indians are just 2 Pakistani. indian mentality is changing. they want to invest in their own country and in the company belonging to their own country. they want to invest in Rupee rather then $. although they dont hve balls to stand against us 2 pakistani.

Scenerio is changing, most of Pakistani bellive india wants to invade Pakistan for akhand Bharat. guys their mentality has changes they dont want to invade Pakistan anymore. they simply want Pakistan to be separate nation physically but under Indias influence.

now we hve got not just corrupt government but corrup people as well who simply dont want to elect any1 other then corruption. we hve got many examples. we are in the worst flood crisis in our history, worst economic conditions, worst inflation worst governence, milatry fighting worst war will death toll more then 1965 and 1971 war. ISI fighting at many fronts( CIA, MI6, RAW, Mosad, TTP, Afgan Intelegence) no body bother to ask abt their families when they were being beheaded by TTP. no body bother to ask why we had suffered so much of casulties and wat steps Gov or GHQ has taken to minimise it. $5billion of defence budget still buys 42 JF17 on soft loan, proudly accepting that China has agreed to provide another soft loan on FC 20 and standerds equal to europian nation.

I am not insulting my country or India. i just want my Pakistani brothers to face reality. i might be wrong plz correct me. maybe this is because i live outside the country see Indians and when see Pakistani i feel ashame and cant find any other way to express.
Most of the people here spend most of the time prasing JF17 and do nothing else.JF 17 is good fighter no dloubt abt it. I hve put its pic on my Laptop and all indians ask me name of this plane and when i tell them i wish u guys see their faces. but we hve to be productive using this forum and spread our voices and make good use of this forum.

we make fun of India by saying that they are affraid of us and thats why their FM cry in the US not to supply F16 or other equipment. fellows its not that they are affraid, they hve fought 3 wars with us in the past and they can still fight. the reason they cry is because they want absolute victory over us. not just milatarally but mentally. They want to win war from us without firing a bullet from our side. we cry like Palestiniams or Lebenese and they bomb us and show attatude to the world like Israel. they want to show the world that they are a power and they deserve to be treated like super power. India dont want to fight like a normal war which will end up their dream of shining India. they are preparing themselves for Cold Start doctrine and this is wat they will implement sooner or later..
 
Ever heard of OFFENSIVE DEFENSE ? Just google it and you will find why it is deemed sufficient to counter Cold Start. I can discuss dynamics of both but.....
 
1st of all attatude of most of the Pakistani in this forum is very over confident...they talk and think as if Pakistan Airforce and Pakistan Army will be party boys and Indians are just junks. PA and PAF will be doing everything and they will be having all the plans and indians are idiots who will simply send C17 and C130 to pakistan full of soldiers so that we can hve some target practise.

Dear fellows this thing is not as simple as it looks. we hve to accept not just verbally that India has got a milatry might and now economic might too. india has got US, UK, Russia, EU and Israel behind their back. they can and they are purchasing world best state of the art equipment. they are hand in hand doing various milatry excercises. i work in dubai in a financial company with 300 indians are just 2 Pakistani. indian mentality is changing. they want to invest in their own country and in the company belonging to their own country. they want to invest in Rupee rather then $. although they dont hve balls to stand against us 2 pakistani.

Scenerio is changing, most of Pakistani bellive india wants to invade Pakistan for akhand Bharat. guys their mentality has changes they dont want to invade Pakistan anymore. they simply want Pakistan to be separate nation physically but under Indias influence.

now we hve got not just corrupt government but corrup people as well who simply dont want to elect any1 other then corruption. we hve got many examples. we are in the worst flood crisis in our history, worst economic conditions, worst inflation worst governence, milatry fighting worst war will death toll more then 1965 and 1971 war. ISI fighting at many fronts( CIA, MI6, RAW, Mosad, TTP, Afgan Intelegence) no body bother to ask abt their families when they were being beheaded by TTP. no body bother to ask why we had suffered so much of casulties and wat steps Gov or GHQ has taken to minimise it. $5billion of defence budget still buys 42 JF17 on soft loan, proudly accepting that China has agreed to provide another soft loan on FC 20 and standerds equal to europian nation.

I am not insulting my country or India. i just want my Pakistani brothers to face reality. i might be wrong plz correct me. maybe this is because i live outside the country see Indians and when see Pakistani i feel ashame and cant find any other way to express.
Most of the people here spend most of the time prasing JF17 and do nothing else.JF 17 is good fighter no dloubt abt it. I hve put its pic on my Laptop and all indians ask me name of this plane and when i tell them i wish u guys see their faces. but we hve to be productive using this forum and spread our voices and make good use of this forum.

we make fun of India by saying that they are affraid of us and thats why their FM cry in the US not to supply F16 or other equipment. fellows its not that they are affraid, they hve fought 3 wars with us in the past and they can still fight. the reason they cry is because they want absolute victory over us. not just milatarally but mentally. They want to win war from us without firing a bullet from our side. we cry like Palestiniams or Lebenese and they bomb us and show attatude to the world like Israel. they want to show the world that they are a power and they deserve to be treated like super power. India dont want to fight like a normal war which will end up their dream of shining India. they are preparing themselves for Cold Start doctrine and this is wat they will implement sooner or later..

Wow... .I admire u man.I dont agree with u regarding certain points but i hope your post will open the eyes of some of your Pakistani brothers who consider India inferior.
 
Cold Start is failed doctrine unless of course the attacker is huge like NATO and defender is someone like Iraq.Cold War is highly based on assumptions and wars are not based on assumptions.General Ayub Khan started 1965 war based on assumptions that Indians won't cross international border so long as we keep it in Kashmir only but he was wrong now Indians are repeating the same mistake.Pakistan will not surrender as Indians think it will.All our main cantts are just across the border so mobilizing for us is no big deal and lastly guys just because Army/AF is silent does not mean it is not working.They're already working on it.The AWACS will alert Pakistan immediately of any massive movements across the border.Besides this is based on the fact that India will attack after terrorist attack so if thats the point then what if Pakistan Army mobilize during the terrorist attack in India?I think AWACS Have been our biggest asset in terms of countering Cold Start as they will inform us immediately of any movement across the border which will alert all our forces and the element of surprise would be gone
 

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