Counter-Ideology: Unanswered Questions and the Case of Pakistan

[Valiant_Soul]

I don't expect you to just accept my arguments at face value ofcourse.

I do not usually do that, but yours is a more delightful version.

Like I mentioned my posts in this thread is primarily for a muslim audience so I can understand when non-muslims might not understand the intricacies of whats being argued here.

I may not have information about everything that you are talking, but nevertheless I can understand where you are coming from and the also the core issue.

However, you will get a better appreciation if you go the extra mile to try to understand what is happening because the world is not black and white as some people might want us to believe, its shades of grey.

I know the world is not black & white, that is why we need to have a better understanding, and we need to peacefully discuss everything.

 

[Zee-Gen]

When I examined the Qur’an, the hadiths, and the Islamic books under my microscope, I came to absolute conviction that it is impossible, impossible for any human being to read the biography of Muhammad and believe in it and yet emerge a psychologically and mentally healthy person. Do you remember the way that (Muhammad) killed Asmaa Bint Marwan? His followers tore her body apart limb from limb while she was breast feeding her child. When they returned to him shouting “Allah Akbar”, he said: “No two goats would lock horns over her.” As you know, goats lock horns over the most inconsequential thing. For Muhammad, however, the killing of a woman while breast feeding was too trivial an incident for goats “to lock horns over.” Is this a prophet of God.

Question: What had you been taught up until that point and what are the Islamic schools teaching young kids.

Reply: There is cursing of the infidels and cursing of the Jews, all Muslims, all the time, at the end of sermon “May God destroy the infidels and the Jews, the enemy of God’s.” Terrorism is a violent Jihad and is the duty of every Muslim.

Okay enough is enough………

What exactly do u know about Islam except what have u heard or hearing from Western or India media or via net…..????.......have u ever met any Muslim……is he/she fits the criteria what described in above posts…….are they (Western/Indian media) know Islam better than Muslims………and who the hell are they to decide what Muslims have to do and what not…….??????

Islam has completed 14 hundred years back and there is no evolutionary modification in Islam til today…….Islam is same as it was 14 hundred years back as a whole……If “it is the duty of all Muslims to establish the political rule of Islam in the world”……..than explain to me why not Muslim did it before 9/11…..when they have a largest kingdom of it’s time or after that till 9/11…..?????........except this “it is the duty of all Muslims to spread Islam in the world amongst non-Muslims” is a statement one can make.

It does not mean that each and every single Muslim’s course of action represents Islam……Is what every single Hindu is doing/did according to Hinduism…..or is every single Christian murderer, raper, thief, corrupt etc. personality reflects the Christianity…….??????......of course no…..than how come what a group or single Muslim is doing/did is according to Islam……..????.........U cannot judge Islam by its followers……. There is cursing of the infidels and cursing of the Jews………should we Muslims pray to God according to infidels…….?????

Zakir Naik a famous Indian Muslim or any other religious personality, every time when talking about religion, quotes various verses to back their augment………..why not this Wafa Sultan mentioned even a single verse or book to show viewers her source of knowledge…..?????.........this quoting verses practice alone shows how liberal/moderate Islam is…..so that, listener can verify it and make him/her own mind whether to accept it or not.

Islam is a bouquet…..u cannot imagine the aroma of bouquet by seeing/smelling just one flower…..have u..…?????

Here come some examples……right in this forum I have seen so many posts about “beating of women is allowed in Islam”…..consider it a flower……with this, there are also conditionalities like……u can slap the face……cannot break the bone…..cannot bruise any part of the body………this is bouquet……inasmuch as this point, do u still think “beating of women is allowed in Islam” is wrong….??????.......Islam is a realistic religion, considering it chimerical it just a lack of knowledge.

Qur’an says:

“Surely Allah is not ashamed to set forth any parable-- (that of) a gnat or any thing above that; then as for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord, and as for those who disbelieve, they say: What is it that Allah means by this parable: He causes many to err by it and many He leads aright by it! but He does not cause to err by it (any) except the transgressors.” (Surah Al Baqarah Ayat 26)

Means many people perverts by it and many people guided by it, but only those who go through the Qur’an not just by picking one verse to back argument.

In the history of Islamic, there were same misguided people by the name of Kharji who just overlooked all remaining verses except one…..they accused Hazrat Ali with heathenism just because of one verse……“Allah is the only decision maker”…..The background was, Hazrat Ali appointed a “decision maker/negotiator” between two groups for the purpose to end a fight, but Kharji accused Hazrat Ali as Allah is the only decision maker…….they did not get the essence of verse and being misguided.

I started this thread not to discuss Islam, but instead to discuss the various ideological aspects according to the current situation of Pakistan and pros and cons and counter ideology implications if possible.

 

[Valiant_Soul]

What exactly do u know about Islam except what have u heard or hearing from Western or India media or via net…..????.......have u ever met any Muslim……is he/she fits the criteria what described in above posts…….are they (Western/Indian media) know Islam better than Muslims………and who the hell are they to decide what Muslims have to do and what not…….??????

First of all, her description is borne out of her own experience, that’s not my opinion. Probably she did not get to meet a lot of Muslim people like you and other good fellows here. And also, in most of the videos there were former Muslims, so it’s not like they do not know anything.

Please do not say that I cannot learn anything from India or West about Islam, that would be unfair.

“it is the duty of all Muslims to spread Islam in the world amongst non-Muslims” is a statement one can make.

Peacefully, you mean, right? Then you would also concede that the non-muslims also have the right to express their faiths to the Muslims as well? So that there is greater harmony.

It does not mean that each and every single Muslim’s course of action represents Islam……Is what every single Hindu is doing/did according to Hinduism…..or is every single Christian murderer, raper, thief, corrupt etc. personality reflects the Christianity…….??????......of course no…..than how come what a group or single Muslim is doing/did is according to Islam……..????.........U cannot judge Islam by its followers……. There is cursing of the infidels and cursing of the Jews………should we Muslims pray to God according to infidels…….?????

I agree with you here. Through these videos I meant to highlight that there is a section of Muslim population who justify forceful subjugation of others – I never said that all Muslims think like that.

Zakir Naik a famous Indian Muslim or any other religious personality, every time when talking about religion, quotes various verses to back their augment………..why not this Wafa Sultan mentioned even a single verse or book to show viewers her source of knowledge…..?????.........this quoting verses practice alone shows how liberal Islam is…..so that, listener can verify it and make him/her own mind whether to accept it or not.

Well, Zakir Naik has been banned from lecturing in Indian State for religious intolerant speeches by a State government and the Muslim clerics themselves, so there is a question mark on his credibility.
Link:

I would assume quoting practice is good, but what if someone is interested more in logic than in quotes?

Here come some examples……right in this forum I have seen so many posts about “beating of women is allowed in Islam”…..consider it a flower……with this, there are also conditionalities like……u can slap the face……cannot break the bone…..cannot bruise any part of the body………this is bouquet……inasmuch as this point, do u still think “beating of women is allowed in Islam” is wrong….??????.......Islam is a realistic religion, considering it chimerical it just a lack of knowledge.

This part is unjustifiable. You mean to say that a man would always be right? What if the woman is right? In that case she not only has to bear the brunt of not just getting beaten, but getting beaten unjustifiably. The thing whether you injure a woman in the process or not is not as demeaning as is the way she gets treated.

FYI, I have Muslim friends who condemn this part. They do not follow everything just because it is in the Quran, they use their intellect. They are moderates, they are only as much influenced by their faith as is necessary to push them in the right direction and become a good human being.

I started this thread not to discuss Islam, but instead to discuss the various ideological aspects according to the current situation of Pakistan and pros and cons and counter ideology implications if possible.

Sometimes you see some point that you want to discuss further, but I apologize if I have taken your topic out of the way. My arguments on these topics end here if people decide not to discuss.

 

[Zohaib786]

Islam does not allow the beating of women
Islam condemns coward terrorists.
the traditions of the Ahle Sunnat wal Jammat and Sufis are combined. You can go to any such mosques and politics will never be mentioned.
If the muslim countries were to properly implement Islamic states, that does not mean such harsh punishments such as the salafi and wahabi states do.
The state would be a socialist state.
If you follow the divine messages of Islam via the Quran and the Sunnah and put it into ideology when running a state the state would be socialist with very little Profiteering and alot of justice.

 

[Zohaib786]

Dr Zakir naik has been condemned by many a scholar of the Sufi and Ahle Sunnat sects. He is very radical in alot of what he said and has said alot of un-islamic things. But that is another topic all together. If a bomb was to go off say in Ajmer Sharif in India or Golra Sharif in Pakistan 2 huge shrines of the sub continent i can garentee you mosts people who believe and follow such shrines would arm themselves to fight such coward extremists themselves. Such an incident would be the suicide of terrorism, the reaction would be volcanic.

 

[Solomon2]

Islam does not allow the beating of women
Islam condemns coward terrorists...

I've said this before but I think I should repeat it: From my point of view, Islam is what Muslims do. And some people who call themselves Muslims do some pretty awful things. Fair or unfair, that blights all Muslims.

 

[Solomon2]

This may interest some:

...He says the 7/7 bombings detonated a theological bomb in his mind: "How could this be justified? I began to wonder if parts of the Koran are actually metaphor, and parts of the Koran were actually just revealed for their time: seventh-century Arabia."

Once the foundation stone of literalism was broken, he had to remake the concepts that had led him to Islamism one-by-one. "Jihad has many levels in Islam – you have the internal struggle to be the best person you can be. But all we had been taught is military jihad. Today I regard any kind of campaigning for truth, for justice, as a type of Jihad." He signed up to the pacifist Movement for the Abolition of War. He redefined martyrdom as anybody who died in an honourable cause. "There were martyrs on 9/11," he says. "They were the firefighters – not the hijackers."

He says he found himself making arguments he once thought unthinkable –

 

[Zee-Gen]

Did I mention your name in my post……??????.........in fact in post #32, I replied to the overall scenario and deceptions created against Islam……”you” mean all people including in videos who creating deception.……..anyway let me try to explain it to u once again and fellow, before this, read my post #32 again and this time…….carefully……..why “carefully” because a lot of questions have already been answered, which you raised……I spent almost 1:30 min. in typing post #32 so that I be able to choose proper words to reply all odds against Islam and videos……its kind a tricky post (I think that is the reason u did not get my point ) anyway let it….I am going to explain it to u again.

First of all, her description is borne out of her own experience, that’s not my opinion. Probably she did not get to meet a lot of Muslim people like you and other good fellows here. And also, in most of the videos there were former Muslims, so it’s not like they do not know anything.

How u know that they were former Muslims…..just because they say so…..????......if they were former Muslims than:

Post #32
why not this Wafa Sultan mentioned even a single verse or book to show viewers her source of knowledge…..?????

Peacefully, you mean, right? Then you would also concede that the non-Muslims also have the right to express their faiths to the Muslims as well? So that there is greater harmony.

There is no other means of spreading Islam except via “peacefully/tableegh”, if still doubtful than check the history of Muslim conquerers, what they did after conquering……everyone has a right to express their faiths.

Through these videos I meant to highlight that there is a section of Muslim population who justify forceful subjugation of others

Post #32
It does not mean that each and every single Muslim’s course of action represents Islam……Is what every single Hindu is doing/did according to Hinduism…..or is every single Christian murderer, raper, thief, corrupt etc. personality reflects the Christianity.

First of all there is absolutely no justification of forceful subjugation of others in Islam and secondly can u name any “section of Muslim population” of its kind…..????

Well, Zakir Naik has been banned from lecturing in Indian State for religious intolerant speeches by a State government and the Muslim clerics themselves, so there is a question mark on his credibility.

Post #32
Zakir Naik a famous Indian Muslim or any other religious personality, every time when talking about religion, quotes various verses to back their augment.

U just picked the first few words…..and discarded other part of the sentence.

Post #32
Means many people perverts by it and many people guided by it, but only those who go through the Qur’an not just by picking one verse to back argument.

This example fits u my fellow.

I would assume quoting practice is good, but what if someone is interested more in logic than in quotes.

Okay what logic have u seen in any of the video you posted….?????

This part is unjustifiable. You mean to say that a man would always be right? What if the woman is right? In that case she not only has to bear the brunt of not just getting beaten, but getting beaten unjustifiably. The thing whether you injure a woman in the process or not is not as demeaning as is the way she gets treated.

Post #32
Islam is a realistic religion, considering it chimerical it just a lack of knowledge.

Okay this part is bit debatable……u know what is the meaning of discipline......i assume yes….so, can u name any system either manmade or natural ever existed without a discipline, even right in everyone’s house there is a discipline, means someone has to obey and someone has to give orders…...and with this u can give me any single example of any system without discipline that ever existed and working fine…….my dear that is why I said “realistic religion” because this is how universe came into existence by God and this is how they ordered us to obey……and my friend, a lot of verses are there in Qur’an and Hadiths about the rights of women (I will PM u later).

FYI, I have Muslim friends who condemn this part. They do not follow everything just because it is in the Qur’an, they use their intellect. They are moderates, they are only as much influenced by their faith as is necessary to push them in the right direction and become a good human being.

Post #32
This quoting verses practice alone shows how liberal/moderate Islam is…..so that, listener can verify it and make him/her own mind whether to accept it or not.

Where Qur’an or Islam force them to not become a good human…..!!!!!

Sometimes you see some point that you want to discuss further, but I apologize if I have taken your topic out of the way. My arguments on these topics end here if people decide not to discuss.

Only one thing that irritates me why the hell non-Muslims are so interested in putting blame on Islam whenever a single Muslim do wrong……I try to explain it in my previous post and my friend one thing more, I hate this “quote and reply” stuff, so whatever is in ur mind just PM or message me, I will reply.

 

[Halaku Khan]

Only one thing that irritates me why the hell non-Muslims are so interested in putting blame on Islam whenever a single Muslim do wrong……

Yes, it is better for such debates to remain an intra-Muslim affair.

Efforts by moderates are commendable, but I think it is an uphill struggle.

Eventually, I think it will be a showdown between the Ali Sina camp (Faith Freedom International) and the Jamaat-ud-Dawa or Zaid Hamid camps (Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz). IMHO, both Ali Sina and Zaid Hamid are being honest as regards Islam, although they come to radically different conclusions.

 

[EjazR]

Well fyi "Ali Sina" if that is truly his name is a non-entity and no where near the importance you are giving him. There are other muslims like Taslima Nasreen, Hirshi Ali e.t.c who have shown themselves on camera and have much more credibility than Ali Sina who is unfortunately not brave enough as these women.

Still please do go through this website to enlighten yourself.
Faithfreedom.com - exposing the lies and vile propaganda behind faithfreedom.org and secularislam.org

The showdown has been with mainstream and true teachings of Islam with those who wrongly consider establishing and "Islamic state" is a requirement of Islam. I suggest you read this thread from the beginning to gain an understanding.

This has been going on since this ideology came about in the 40s and 50s when revolutionary movements among the communists and fascists were happening around the world.
In fact if you read Syed Qutb's milestones (he is by far more important than either of the two you mentioned), looking at it objectively there are many similarities between left and right wing revolutionaries and how they want to achieve their aim of establishing an utopian state full equality and justice.

This is not something unique to Islam. Any sort of nationalism that bases itself only around religion or ethnicity will result in the same. Wether it be Christianity Judaism, Hinduism or ofcourse Islam, mixing religion with politics will surely result in extremists and fanatics. For example in India recently Abhinav Bharat was banned who had a similar agenda and was indulging in terrorist activities to destablise the government

The main reason why AQ and related groups have become so prominent is that during the Wests' war against communism, they were funded trained and supported as an ideological enemy against communism. In this Saudi Arabia and Pakistan was their ally. US was a superpower and they had been trained and used to "defeat" another superpower. There leaders would seek asylum in western countries when their own countries had been arresting them. An example is a recently declassfied intelligence assessment on the Islamic revolution in Iran in 79 showed that Americans thought that in the long term this would be a net positive because these "Islamists" were more anti-communists than the Shah of Iran himself.

Had there been no support for these groups, they would have never attained the prominence they got and would have been finished off easily.

 

[rawraw]

My Friend there is nothing as forced regulation.

A Muslim has to submit to the divine out of his own free will.
A Forced Marriage is not considered a marriage in Islam.

There are forbidden things like gambling, prostitution, fornication etc we cannot choose these as rightful things

But when it comes to Secular fields of life you are free to choose what ever suites you best as long as you do not step outside the realm of Islam.

Hope it clarifies the situation.

I kind of want to debate the free will part. Jaziya. you say that it is the choice to submit to Islam, at the same time you put an economic disincentive on non-islamic people. Beause of this many may have converted to avoid the taxation. This is a grey area on the fee will scale. People are doing it not because they want to follow islam but become muslims to avaoid penalty. your view please.

 

[Halaku Khan]

Well fyi "Ali Sina" if that is truly his name is a non-entity and no where near the importance you are giving him. There are other muslims like Taslima Nasreen, Hirshi Ali e.t.c who have shown themselves on camera and have much more credibility than Ali Sina who is unfortunately not brave enough as these women.

Still please do go through this website to enlighten yourself.
Faithfreedom.com - exposing the lies and vile propaganda behind faithfreedom.org and secularislam.org

I've read a debate between Ali Sina and the folks who run faithfreedom.com (links: page 1, page 2). Ali Sina may have good reason for keeping himself anonymous. In any case, it is the thoughts that are important, not the identity of the person. Anyway, leaving all that aside ...

The showdown has been with mainstream and true teachings of Islam with those who wrongly consider establishing and "Islamic state" is a requirement of Islam.

Will you say that imposing Sharia Law is not part of Islam? How would you impose Sharia without an Islamic state?

If you say Sharia is not part of Islam, most Muslims would probably not agree with you.

This has been going on since this ideology came about in the 40s and 50s when revolutionary movements among the communists and fascists were happening around the world.
In fact if you read Syed Qutb's milestones (he is by far more important than either of the two you mentioned), looking at it objectively there are many similarities between left and right wing revolutionaries and how they want to achieve their aim of establishing an utopian state full equality and justice.

This is not something unique to Islam. Any sort of nationalism that bases itself only around religion or ethnicity will result in the same. Wether it be Christianity Judaism, Hinduism or ofcourse Islam, mixing religion with politics will surely result in extremists and fanatics. For example in India recently Abhinav Bharat was banned who had a similar agenda and was indulging in terrorist activities to destablise the government

The main reason why AQ and related groups have become so prominent is that during the Wests' war against communism, they were funded trained and supported as an ideological enemy against communism. In this Saudi Arabia and Pakistan was their ally. US was a superpower and they had been trained and used to "defeat" another superpower. There leaders would seek asylum in western countries when their own countries had been arresting them. An example is a recently declassfied intelligence assessment on the Islamic revolution in Iran in 79 showed that Americans thought that in the long term this would be a net positive because these "Islamists" were more anti-communists than the Shah of Iran himself.

Had there been no support for these groups, they would have never attained the prominence they got and would have been finished off easily.

Yes, I agree with most of this.

I am sympathetic to your views, but I am not sure how true you are being to the roots of Islam, and about how popular such views can become amongst Muslims.

Regards ....

 

[bigmoneymaker]

zeshukhan, it is good for you to have these doubts as nothing in this world is perfect including religion, we have more and more reflections to help us to go out of the religious traps and abyssal pit.....BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS WHEN YOU DENY THE EXISTING OPERATIONAL BUT UGLY SYSTEM ARE YOU ABLE TO REBUILD ANOTHER NEW SYSTEM TO KEEP UP THE SOCIAL ORDER??? INSTABILITY WILL COME IF YOU REFORM THE CURRENT INEFFICIENT SYSTEM SO THIS IS DEFINITELY A DILEMMA.......IF NO COURAGEOUS ACTION IS TAKEN FOR REFORMS THEN LEAVE THE CURRENT SYSTEM CONTINUE TO BE FUNCTIONAL......

 

[Valiant_Soul]

To zeshukhan
I am going to respond to a few points you made.

How u know that they were former Muslims…..just because they say so…..????......if they were former Muslims than:

Post #32
why not this Wafa Sultan mentioned even a single verse or book to show viewers her source of knowledge…..?????

These persons are all known people, you can google them and look for their history. Quoting from Quran or not does not undermines the fact that they were Muslims. In that sense, you cannot expect Hindus to remember each and every verse from their numerous scriptures.

The kind of audience that they are addressing is also a factor of how they speak.

There is no other means of spreading Islam except via “peacefully/tableegh”, if still doubtful than check the history of Muslim conquerers, what they did after conquering……everyone has a right to express their faiths.

I know the history of of Muslim conquerers and knowing that only creates more doubts in the minds of non-muslims. Not all Muslim emperors are admired in India, except, Akbar, Shahjehan, to name a few. In fact, it was Akbar who revolted against the suppression of non-muslims in the name of religion. Before that, non-muslims faced lot of atrocities and they were heavily taxed.

First of all there is absolutely no justification of forceful subjugation of others in Islam and secondly can u name any “section of Muslim population” of its kind…..????

I am not saying whether there is any justification or not. That is another debate. Here I only want to highlight how some sections of Muslims are involved in propagating hate towards non-muslims. Here is another video you should watch in this context.

Okay what logic have u seen in any of the video you posted….?????

I do not see anything illogical at all, that is why I posted them.

Okay this part is bit debatable……u know what is the meaning of discipline......i assume yes….so, can u name any system either manmade or natural ever existed without a discipline, even right in everyone’s house there is a discipline, means someone has to obey and someone has to give orders…...and with this u can give me any single example of any system without discipline that ever existed and working fine…….my dear that is why I said “realistic religion” because this is how universe came into existence by God and this is how they ordered us to obey……and my friend, a lot of verses are there in Qur’an and Hadiths about the rights of women (I will PM u later).

My friend, I know what is discipline. There is no justification of beating grown-up women. Hell, beating children to discipline them is disallowed in schools of India let alone grown-up people. The best way to discipline people is through proper education.

Only one thing that irritates me why the hell non-Muslims are so interested in putting blame on Islam whenever a single Muslim do wrong……I try to explain it in my previous post and my friend one thing more, I hate this “quote and reply” stuff, so whatever is in ur mind just PM or message me, I will reply.

If I tell you my case, I am not interested in blaming anyone or anything, I am simply interested in what is right and in helping to spread righteousness. Even if that means shifting my own base of thoughts - if it is incorrect or illogical I will change it.

 

[pagans]

Those who quote Akbar as an example of good Muslim does not know that Akber apostated and died as a kaffir. Akbar was a Ex-Muslim .