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Counter-Ideology: Unanswered Questions and the Case of Pakistan

You better read carefully indeed Ejaz is a good poster and we respect him.

We are not questioning him to clear misconceptions but its the Indian hindu members who are spreading misconception about Islam and Ejaz is very nicely and logically replying to your misconceptions.

So bravo Ejaz

Jana there are lot of ideas coming from Islam from many side..Every one is interpreting at their own will so people have lot of confusions ..As Miles Togo told Dr. Israr's view is different from that of Ejaz so is other guys point of view so what the problem is asking doubts??how it become Anti-Muslim?? personally I dont know much about Islam other than we i mean Jew,Christian and Muslim has common background and if I go to my muslim friends house on Eid and Ramzan I can eat plenty of Biryani and other dishes :smitten:
 
the hate is created by anti-Islam. anti-Muslim policies by non-Muslim countries.

Even if we are to agree with this, does that mean that the terrorist activities carried out by whatever terrorist groups in the name of Islam is justified? Please watch the vidoes carefully, there are enough facts and arguments presented that validates what some Muslims are trying to do and from where they gain inspiration.

we are not violent neither we like violence. If you attack us, kill us, insult our faith out of your phobias then dont expect we will present you flowers.

You are talking as if you are the president of the topmost body of all Muslims (no pun intended). Can I say that for all Hindus? I cannot be responsible for what other Hindus do. How can you say that for all Muslims? You are reacting emotionally and your emotions are true but if you seek truth and righteousness, then it is necessary to look beyond emotions and consider the view of even your opponents.

Ejaz has addressed and corrected many of misconceptions the Indian Hindus have in their mind or they had created, against Islam.

Hey! Will you ask our opinion as well, whether he has corrected the misconceptions or not? Oh, but how does our opinion matters, right? ;)

Now we dont care whether you accept the reality or continue to nurture the lies you concocted about Islam.

No one has created those people in the videos and elsewhere, so there is no question of non-muslims creating misconceptions out of their own mind. We are not devils as you might have been thinking. As far as I am concerned - I have no problem in accpeting the reality. But we have not yet reached the conclusion. Reality is not so simple and straight - it takes all kinds of views, arguments and facts to come to reality.

P.S. I have no allegiance to anything except truth and righteousness. So please do not take me in the wrong sense. My place of belonging or my cultural background does not affect my inclination towards righteousness and fairness.
 
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I just fail to understand why we are going in circles here. Dr Israr Ahmed is NOT a traditional Islamic scholar, he is a medical doctor. And Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, Maulana Mazhari and other Islamic scholars are much more credible. You are going to a computer programmer to have your heart checked out and operated on instead of going to a heart specialist / surgeon. A very simple but apt analogy.

Like I mentioned what I have said here is not my OWN views or any sweetener in any form, these are views of traditional Islamic scholars. I must admit that being Indian; most of these are Indian scholars predominantly from the Deoband school of thought. But when scholars affiliated to this school hold these views it just adds more credibility than Dr Israr Ahmed or Zaid Hamid types. Infact, I can even quote a number of much maligned "wahabbi" scholars who will ALSO support "my" view and are critical of Syed Qutb's ideology. There are even "Reformed" ideologues of Al Qaeda who denounce this concept as well. But is it worth my time to dig it out and put it here when it seems that some people are not even going through my posts or outright dismissing it?

I have to spend considerable time to write these posts and if some people are just going to put one liners and links to irrelevant youtube videos, it just shows that you are not serious and you already have a set mind and not interested in debate and are not interested in putting any effort. I can't change if you have already made up your mind about something and are happy with it.

Like I said earlier, this thread was primarily aimed at muslims. Personally I expected mainly muslims to debate this point with me and counter me but the lack of any counter points raised again proves IMO that this is a fringe ideology and when presented views of traditional Islamic scholars no one can deny that what I have presented is closest to Islamic principles and even people will return back to the basics of traditional Islamic teachings.


Let me go back to the thread topic and what we are discussing here. What is the ideology that is driving some fringe Muslim groups to terrorist activities in the name of Islam?
This is the topic and this is whats being addressed here. I have tried to explain here that its not just some "wahabbi" sect behind it. Although they may have their issues in some areas, they do not support what these muslim groups do in the name of Islam and the politcal Islamic ideology. Neither is some sinister and mythical Zionist-Crusader-Hindu alliance.
Stick to this topic, if you want to know details about the political Islamic ideology and their comparison with their counterparts in Communism, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism e.t.c. this is relevant and can be discussed If you have misconceptions on Islamic practices you can open up another thread although I don't think its forum policy to discuss religion.



Misconceptions is a fact especially for Islam. And Islam bashing is a very lucrative business. Just ask at how much money some of these people have made. You will be surprised. Can anyone of these people explain why Yvonne Ridley embraced Islam after studying the Quran? Espicially when they are talking about things like Honor killings e.t.c. that has nothing to do with Islam at all.

Similarly many people have misconceptions about Hinduism as well. For example India has one of the lowest sex ratio in the world which primarily among Hindus and due to female abortions. But this has nothing to do with Hinduism as a religion. Recently we had cases of Hindu extremists caught in bomb blasts in Goa and Malegaon, then you had TV channels shouting of on Hindu Terrorism and Om signs as if this was somehow related when it wasn't. It was a religious nationalist ideology that has nothing to do with traditional vedic teachings.

I would give more credibility on Hindu and vedic teachings to Swami aghvinesh or vivekananda for example or other scholars who have studies the hindu scriptures than Dr. Praveen Tagodia or Vinay Katiar for example. Simply because Tagodia is a medical doctor and has no credibility for any logical person to be an expert on Hindu scriptures and teachings.

I have very close interaction with traditional Islamic scholars and yes there are many things I personally feel that need improvement. There are issues related to modern subjects to be incorporated in madrassas for example that I have been personally involved in advocating along with many other religious scholars who agree with this. But the point we are discussing is very simple and not related to whether everything is perfect with muslims today because ofcourse its not.

We are discussing that this ideology; that just started int he 40s and 50s after Qutb and got strengthened in the Wests fight against Communism or by Pakistani intelligence establishment in Kashmir and then fractured and started attacking their sponsors has anything to do with Islam. IT doesn't

Unfortunately, I can't post the 1000s of articles and books written in Urdu and Arabic against this ideology by the traditional Islamic scholars. A lot of work was done by Deoband scholars in India as well debunking Maududi's concept of grabbing political power and establishing this "Islamic" state. There was condemnation of the Taliban style of govt. back in the late 90s as well especially about things like forcing people to keep a particular length of beard e.t.c. When SIMI in India started its campaign of "Khilafat", it was again put down and condemned. But because this was primarily aimed at a muslim audience and articles were written in Urdu magazines or books and Arabic, mainstream media never knows about it. I usually post articles that have been translated to English or have been written by scholars themselves like in the case of Maulana Wahiddudin Khan. So the argument that somehow what these scholars are saying was aimed at "deceiving" non-muslims falls flat because for the past half century they have been writing for a muslim audience when these groups were most active among muslims. Unfortunately these very "Islamists" got asylum in western countries later on and were used as recruitment tools to fight the Communists.

But anyone familiar in religious scholars are well aware of this. I suggest you even go to your local madrassa or a religious scholar and ask him this particular question and you will see that they will be saying the same as I have said. This is the reason why Deoband never issues edicts on which party to vote for and very fatwa issued by them has been "use this as an important responsibility and vote for the person and party you feel is in best interests of the people"

Again I request people to stick to the topic and not derail an important thread.

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@greatsequence
I might just add a thing about this. Can you clarify which "Hudood" laws are you talking about? If this refers to the Hudood ordinance that was passed in Pakistan, everyone knows that it was a political gimmick by military dictators to play the Islam card that is unfortunately so common to legitimize their dictatorship. This has been one of the biggest problems for Pakistan.

Like I mentioned, there is no requirement to establish a Islamic state and implement sharia top down. Doesn't this include Had punishment which by the way comprises hardly 1% of the total corpus. More importantly laws are to be passed by the parliament and lawmakers can decide how harsh a punishment should be for a crime

Hadd rulings that draw most controversy are of three types. (1) Executions of those who indulge in death and killing or rape/gang rape or terrorism (fitna fasad) (2) Stealing of and extremely large amount, burgulary, armed roberry (3) Adultery and fornication

For example, most countries already have punishment for death for intentional murder and killing or for spreading fitna and fasad (terrorism). I might also add that there is not a single verse in the quran that mentions stoning to death. The only mention of this is when jews of medina CAME to the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and asked him to decide the punishment of two adulterers based on the Torah. So according to the Torah scriptures, this is the punishment. In the Quran, there is no mention of this. Although its still a very serious sin.


Besides implementing Hadd (literally means boundary) punishments are far far from the most serious things affecting muslims. According to some Islamic scholar's opinion, without the guarantee of every poor to food, clothing and shelter, the hadd punishment for stealing can't be implemented. This can be extended to for example that marriage should be made easy and people should be encouraged (not forced) to adopt modesty. For example in India, even the Indian President Pratibah Patil covers her hair and dresses modestly, she may be visiting the Russian president or the Buckingham palace but she proudly displayed her culture and had her head covered. For Indian muslims females, it would be doubly part of the culture as well as their faith to cover their hair and dress modestly for which they would be rewarded. This is how an elected representative can influence modesty among the people without passing laws

Moreover, marriage should be made easy so that couples can get married easily without too much difficulty. Without these prerequisites the Hadd rulings can't be implemented top down and forced. These are opinion of religious scholars again.

Currently there are more important issues that are to be inculcated at a personal level among muslims, values of honesty, charity, character, tolerance, patience, compassion mercy that are sorely lacking in muslims today. Like I said how many Muslim today pray five times a day regularly or give their obligatory 2.5% in charity? There are 100+ verses mentioning these two commandments in the Quran while a single verse for the Hadd punishment in each case. Which is more important than? These(Prayer , zakat, not lying, and other personal qualities and on things you had control over) are things that God will ask us about on judgment day. He won't ask you weather you implemented to Hudood laws or not.
 
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We are proud of Indian Muslims like Ejaz Who are here to correct misconceptions about Islam in India, but how many Hindus remain in Pakistan to correct misconceptions about Hinduism in Pakistan ?

We are proud of ALL Hindus in Pakistan, they are well integrated into our culture. Occasional hate attacks take place against them but overall they are in peace.

We don't spend time telling our Pakistani brothers about their religion. They practice their religion and we practice ours.

Problem is in India where a Hindu majority wants a sizeable Muslim minority to practice Islam according to the wishes of the majority.

NOw don't come back and say that we were just trying to understand because my response will be simple - Convert to Islam and become a model for all Muslims around the world.
 
I have to spend considerable time to write these posts and if some people are just going to put one liners and links to irrelevant youtube videos, it just shows that you are not serious and you already have a set mind and not interested in debate and are not interested in putting any effort. I can't change if you have already made up your mind about something and are happy with it.

Now that is unfair. I have to spend considerable amount of time to make my posts as well. (I spend more time reading posts than writing - somebody said become a good listener.) Writing short posts helps in highlighting important points and is easy reading for readers as well. Link to videos or webpages help in backing your point of view.

I do not have a set mind over these issues. But there are some facts that are hard to ignore. In a debate, both sides should present their own point of view and both sides should take the point of the other side, whenever there is one that is undeniable. I think that is how a debate should go.

Like I said earlier, this thread was primarily aimed at muslims.

Again I request people to stick to the topic and not derail an important thread.

I respect that. *Goes out of the room*.......*And shuts the door* :whistle:
 
Quote

For example, most countries already have punishment for death for intentional murder and killing or for spreading fitna and fasad (terrorism). I might also add that there is not a single verse in the quran that mentions stoning to death. The only mention of this is when jews of medina CAME to the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and asked him to decide the punishment of two adulterers based on the Torah. So according to the Torah scriptures, this is the punishment. In the Quran, there is no mention of this. Although its still a very serious sin.

Unquote

Hon EjazR is correct. Punishment of unlawful sex is 100 lashes as mentioned in Sura Al Noor which is translated as:

The woman and the man
Guilty of fornication
Flog each of them
with a hundred stripes
and let a party of believers
Witness their punishment

Problem is that in Islam, especially in Sunni Islam; Sunnat or tradition of the holy Prophet (PBUH) is given equal importance to the Quranic verse. Based on the case of Jewish Women, most Faqih consider the punishment as laid down in the holy Quran only applicable if the women was not married, in case of the married women, both the parties should suffer ‘Rajm’ or death by stoning. I have had many arguments and was forced to shut up when told that when great scholars such Imam Shafi and Abu Hanifa interpret this way, who am I to question?

Personally I would reject any ‘Hadith’ which appears to be in conflict with the Quranic verse, primarily because most ahadith as mentioned in the ‘Saheeh Sitta’ or six correct collections were complied after when even most of the 'Taabiens’ were dead. Therefore likelihood of misquotation of any Hadith or Sunnat exits no matter how small.

Regret to say that I found most of the mullahs that I came across were self righteous and opinionated, when such people apply the Sharia Law the real problem arises. For example a Sharia court in Pakistan punished a mentally retarded girl under the Hudood laws because the women was not married but pregnant, thus obviously guilty. However since 4 eyewitness are required to apply the ‘Hadd’ and not a single eyewitness was forthcoming, the male partner went free.

IMO this is a travesty of justice. As Muslim I believe in ‘Adl’ and any law; irrespective of the fact that many scholars claim to be according to Sharia, should be abolished. Nevertheless we have PML (N) who voted against even a minor modification of such an unjust law.
At the risk of being pronounced a ‘Kafir’ I believe that in a country such as Pakistan: where witness are bought and bear false witness on Quran and each year scores of supposedly honest Muslims in NWFP claim to see the new moon in when it was astronomically impossible; Sharia law should not and cannot be applied.
 
Based on the case of Jewish Women, most Faqih consider the punishment as laid down in the holy Quran only applicable if the women was not married, in case of the married women, both the parties should suffer ‘Rajm’ or death by stoning. I have had many arguments and was forced to shut up when told that when great scholars such Imam Shafi and Abu Hanifa interpret this way, who am I to question?
Could you provide me with a more detailed reference, please?
 
Personally I would reject any ‘Hadith’ which appears to be in conflict with the Quranic verse, primarily because most ahadith as mentioned in the ‘Saheeh Sitta’ or six correct collections were complied after when even most of the 'Taabiens’ were dead. Therefore likelihood of misquotation of any Hadith or Sunnat exits no matter how small.
Sahiha sitta were written late but they include the books which were written before them and were authentic. They can be misquoted but not to the extent that they totally change the meaning or add something new. Imam Abu hanifa was himself a Tabee. So his rulings are before the times of siha sita.
 
Like I mentioned what I have said here is not my OWN views or any sweetener in any form ...

That is commendable, there is need for facts, not sweeteners.

The only mention of this is when jews of medina CAME to the Prophet Muhammad(SAW) and asked him to decide the punishment of two adulterers based on the Torah.

What do you make of the following Hadith from Sahih Muslim? There does not seem to be any Jewish connection.

Book 017, Number 4206:
'Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma'iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me. He turned him away. On the following day, he (Ma'iz) again came to him and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) turned him away for the second time, and sent him to his people saying: Do you know if there is anything wrong with his mind. They denied of any such thing in him and said: We do not know him but as a wise good man among us, so far as we can judge. He (Ma'iz) came for the third time, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent him as he had done before. He asked about him and they informed him that there was nothing wrong with him or with his mind. When it was the fourth time, a ditch was dug for him and he (the Holy Prophet) pronounced judg- ment about him and he wis stoned.

He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

Book 017, Number 4191:
'Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.

Book 017, Number 4192:
'Ubada b. as-Samit reported that whenever Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) received revelation, he felt its rigour and the complexion of his face changed. One day revelation descended upon him, he felt the same rigour. When it was over and he felt relief, he said: Take from me. Verily Allah has ordained a way for them (the women who commit fornication),: (When) a married man (commits adultery) with a married woman, and an unmarried male with an unmarried woman, then in case of married (persons) there is (a punishment) of one hundred lashes and then stoning (to death). And in case of unmarried persons, (the punishment) is one hundred lashes and exile for one year.

Book 017, Number 4196:
Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him, He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times, and as he testified four times against his own self, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad? He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him. Ibn Shihab (one of the narrators) said: One who had heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah saying this informed me thus: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the place of prayer (either that of 'Id or a funeral). When the stones hurt him, he ran away. We caught him in the Harra and stoned him (to death). This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters.

Book 017, Number 4198:
Jabir b. Samura reported: As he was being brought to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) I saw Ma'iz b. Malik-a short-statured person with strong sinews, having no cloak around him. He bore witness against his own self four times that he had committed adultery, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Perhaps (you kissed her or embraced her). He said: No. by God, one deviating (from the path of virtue) has committed adultery. He then got him stoned (to death), and then delivered the address: Behold, as we set out for Jihad in the cause of Allah, one of you lagged behind and shrieked like the bleating of a male goat, and gave a small quantity of milk. By Allah, in case I get hold of him, I shall certainly punish him.

Book 017, Number 4201:
Ibn Abbas reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to Ma'iz b. Malik: Is it true what has reached me about you? He said: What has reached you about me? He said: It has reached me that you have committed (adultery) with the slave-girl of so and so? He said: Yes. He (the narrator) said: He testified four times. He (the Holy Prophet) then made pronouncement about him and he was stoned (to death).

Book 017, Number 4202:
Abu Sa'id reported that a person belonging to the clan of Aslam, who was called Ma, iz b. Malik, came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: I have committed immorality (adultery), so inflict punishment upon me. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) turned him away again and again. He then asked his people (about the state of his mind). They said: We do not know of any ailment of his except that he has committed something about which he thinks that he would not be able to relieve himself of its burden but with the Hadd being imposed upon him. He (Ma'iz) came back to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he commanded us to stone him. We took him to the Baqi' al-Gharqad (the graveyard of Medina). We neither tied him nor dug any ditch for him. We attacked him with bones, with clods and pebbles. He ran away and we ran after him until he came upon the ston ground (al-Harra) and stopped there and we stoned him with heavy stones of the Harra until he became motionless (lie died). He (the Holy Prophet) then addressed (us) in the evening saying Whenever we set forth on an expedition in the cause of Allah, some one of those connected with us shrieked (under the pressure of sexual lust) as the bleating of a male goat. It is essential that if a person having committed such a deed is brought to me, I should punish him. He neither begged forgiveness for him nor cursed him.


Book 017, Number 4207:
Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she delivers bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about her and her clothes were tied around her and then he commanded and she was stoned to death. He then prayed over her (dead body). Thereupon Umar said to him: Allah's Apostle, you offer prayer for her, whereas she had committed adultery! Thereupon he said: She has made such a repentance that if it were to be divided among seventy men of Medina, it would be enough. Have you found any repentance better than this that she sacr ficed her life for Allah, the Majestic?

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts


Like I mentioned, there is no requirement to establish a Islamic state and implement sharia top down.

So you are saying that Sharia punishments and sentencing guidelines need not be imposed. Fair enough, although there may be people who will disagree.

Like I said earlier, this thread was primarily aimed at muslims. ...

Let me go back to the thread topic and what we are discussing here. What is the ideology that is driving some fringe Muslim groups to terrorist activities in the name of Islam?

...
I don't think its forum policy to discuss religion.

OK, I will withdraw from the discussion, but my only plea is that we all be honest with ourselves and with others.
 
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@Halaku and Valiant_Soul

My statement on this being primarily for muslim audience was in response to some posters implying that I was "deceiving" non-muslims. And what I am saying is how can I when this is aimed at primarily at a non-muslim audience. This is not a thread about "misconceptions about Islam" as it is turning out to be.
If you want to discuss about the political Islam ideology that has resulted in the phenomenon of terrorism in the name of Islam today for the past 2-4 decades and why it is deviant, or its related aspects, I don't have any problems so no need to "leave the room and shut the door".


---------------------------------
@Halaku

I just realized that in my previous post I forgot to add Jews and muslims who CAME to the Prophet and the punishment was according to the law of Torah. I apologies for the slight miss on my part but when you are writing such long posts I guess its bound to happen.

But still these are hadith and the Quran does not have a single verse on this. Besides the Quran is the primary source and if you don't implement the stoning punishment, you are not going against the Quran.

If you have read through the hadiths mentioned you will notice that in each case the sinners voluntary came again and again to confess their sins. And the prophet would still send them back. This shows that they are given chance to withdraw their confession and above all forgiveness is paramount. There is no witch-hunt going on to find out the "adulteres and fornicators" and punish them even when they deny this accusation.

There are differences of opinion among scholars on whether it can be implemented when the pre-requites of having a modest society and ease of marriage for people wanting marry is not there, similar to the pre-requite of the hadd punishment of stealing to be applied when a proper welfare state is not there and that's where we come back to the question of are muslims required to grab political power in the name of Islam and establish an Islamic state? Without the pre-requisites which takes years and decades to fulfill how can these be implemented. Although there may be some hadd punishments that can be applicable because of their severity like murder, terrorism or even gang rapes/rape perpetrators e.t.c but still needs careful evaluation before being implemented.

Islam pays a lot of importance to the family unit and anyone disrupting the family unit through things like adultery e.t.c. are liable for punishment. It is important to deter people from these acts. But how many people will actually own up voluntarily multiple times to their wrong doings in front of the government or police? These interpretations are part of Islamic jurisprudence and hence the ulema need to be separate from the political establishment but can act as a guiding force in the people's individual lives. Besides this is a minuscule part of the entire corpus of Quranic teachings and there are far more important teachings as I have mentioned above that should be implemented first such as giving in charity of 2.5% e.t.c.

Hence the individual qualities are what the muslims should be focusing on rather than wasting their time on implementing "hadd punishments" when majority of the muslims are not even practicing the basics
 
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If you want to discuss about the political Islam ideology that has resulted in the phenomenon of terrorism in the name of Islam today for the past 2-4 decades and why it is deviant, or its related aspects, I don't have any problems ...

First let us understand what is religion, and what is politics.

The domain of religion is: beliefs regarding birth and death; attitudes towards one's parents, family, and other human beings; ideas about "God", nature and the universe; beliefs about self-improvement and human evolution.

The domain of politics is: the rules of behavior by which society is organized. This ranges from mundane laws such as stopping at a red light while driving, to larger organizational systems such as Communism and Democracy.

The pluses and minuses of various aspects of a religious system or a political system can be a matter of debate.

Now Islam is both a religion as well as a political system. What you are trying to do is de-emphasize the political component.

You talk about Islamic scholars who have spent their lives studying Islam. But there are scholars, much more influential than Maulana Wahiduddin Khan, whom you ignore. One such is Maulana Maududi, who was born in Maharashtra, and died as a Pakistani. This is what he had to say:
A time will come when Communism will fear for its survival in Moscow, Capitalistic democracy will tremble for its safety in Washington and New York. ... The objective of Islamic Jihad is to put an end to the dominance of the un-Islamic systems of government and replace them with Islamic rule, Islam intends to bring about this revolution not in one country or in a few countries but in the entire world.

Abul Ala Maududi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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^^^ Just after I composed the above post, I came across an outstanding article by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who beautifully articulates the dilemma between Islam as a religion and Islam as a political system, in the context of the recent ban on minarets in Switzerland. I do not lightly use the term "genius", but Ayaan Hirsi Ali appears to come pretty close.

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Swiss ban on minarets was a vote for tolerance and inclusion | csmonitor.com

The Swiss vote highlights the debate on Islam as a set of political and collectivist ideas, not a rejection of Muslims.

By Ayaan Hirsi Ali

21c1f4bef4c13ab512937bb2d08ea033._.jpg


from the December 5, 2009 edition

Washington - The recent Swiss referendum that bans construction of minarets has caused controversy across the world. There are two ways to interpret the vote. First, as a rejection of political Islam, not a rejection of Muslims. In this sense it was a vote for tolerance and inclusion, which political Islam rejects. Second, the vote was a revelation of the big gap between how the Swiss people and the Swiss elite judge political Islam.

In the battle of ideas, symbols are important.

What if the Swiss voters were asked in a referendum to ban the building of an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles as a symbol of the belief of a small minority? Or imagine a referendum on building towers topped with a hammer and sickle – another symbol dear to the hearts of a very small minority in Switzerland.

Political ideas have symbols: A swastika, a hammer and sickle, a minaret, a crescent with a star in the middle (usually on top of a minaret) all represent a collectivist political theory of supremacy by one group over all others.

On controversial issues, the Swiss listen to debate, read newspapers, and otherwise investigate when they make up their minds for a vote.

What Europeans are finding out about Islam as they investigate is that it is more than just a religion. Islam offers not only a spiritual framework for dealing with such human questions as birth, death, and what ought to come after this world; it prescribes a way of life.

Islam is an idea about how society should be organized: the individual's relationship to the state; that the relationship between men and women; rules for the interaction between believers and unbelievers; how to enforce such rules; and why a government under Islam is better than a government founded on other ideas. These political ideas of Islam have their symbols: the minaret, the crescent; the head scarf, and the sword.

The minaret is a symbol of Islamist supremacy, a token of domination that came to symbolize Islamic conquest. It was introduced decades after the founding of Islam.

In Europe, as in other places in the world where Muslims settle, the places of worship are simple at first. All that a Muslim needs to fulfill the obligation of prayer is a compass to indicate the direction of Mecca, water for ablution, a clean prayer mat, and a way of telling the time so as to pray five times a day in the allocated period.

The construction of large mosques with extremely tall towers that cost millions of dollars to erect are considered only after the demography of Muslims becomes significant.

The mosque evolves from a prayer house to a political center.

Imams can then preach a message of self-segregation and a bold rejection of the ways of the non-Muslims.

Men and women are separated; gays, apostates and Jews are openly condemned; and believers organize around political goals that call for the introduction of forms of sharia (Islamic) law, starting with family law.

This is the trend we have seen in Europe, and also in other countries where Muslims have settled. None of those Western academics, diplomats, and politicians who condemn the Swiss vote to ban the minaret address, let alone dispute, these facts.

In their response to the presence of Islam in their midst, Europeans have developed what one can discern as roughly two competing views. The first view emphasizes accuracy. Is it accurate to equate political symbols like those used by Communists and Nazis with a religious symbol like the minaret and its accessories of crescent and star; the uniforms of the Third Reich with the burqa and beards of current Islamists?

If it is accurate, then Islam, as a political movement, should be rejected on the basis of its own bigotry. In this view, Muslims should not be rejected as residents or citizens. The objection is to practices that are justified in the name of Islam, like honor killings, jihad, the we-versus-they perspective, the self-segregation. In short, Islamist supremacy.

The second view refuses to equate political symbols of various forms of white fascism with the symbols of a religion. In this school of thought, Islamic Scripture is compared to Christian and Jewish Scripture. Those who reason from this perspective preach pragmatism. According to them, the key to the assimilation of Muslims is dialogue. They are prepared to appease some of the demands that Muslim minorities make in the hope that one day their attachment to radical Scripture will wear off like that of Christian and Jewish peoples.

These two contrasting perspectives correspond to two quite distinct groups in Europe. The first are mainly the working class. The second are the classes that George Orwell described as "indeterminate." Cosmopolitan in outlook, they include diplomats, businesspeople, mainstream politicians, and journalists. They are well versed in globalization and tend to focus on the international image of their respective countries. With every conflict between Islam and the West, they emphasize the possible backlash from Muslim countries and how that will affect the image of their country.

By contrast, those who reject the ideas and practices of political Islam are in touch with Muslims on a local level. They have been asked to accept Muslim immigrants as neighbors, classmates, colleagues – they are what Americans would refer to as Main Street. {The previous two sentences I feel less comfortable with.} Here is the great paradox of today's Europe: that the working class, who voted for generations for the left, now find themselves voting for right-wing parties because they feel that the social democratic parties are out of touch.

The pragmatists, most of whom are power holders, are partially right when they insist that the integration of Muslims will take a very long time. Their calls for dialogue are sensible. But as long as they do not engage Muslims to make a choice between the values of the countries that they have come to and those of the countries they left, they will find themselves faced with more surprises. And this is what the Swiss vote shows us. This is a confrontation between local, working-class voters (and some middle-class feminists) and Muslim immigrant newcomers who feel that they are entitled, not only to practice their religion, but also to replace the local political order with that of their own.

Look carefully at the reactions of the Swiss, EU and UN elites. The Swiss government is embarrassed by the outcome of the vote. The Swedes, who are currently chairing EU meetings, have condemned the Swiss vote as intolerant and xenophobic. It is remarkable that the Swedish foreign minister, Carl Bildt, said in public that the Swiss vote is a poor act of diplomacy. What he overlooks is that this is a discussion of Islam as a domestic issue. It has nothing to do with foreign policy.

The Swiss vote highlights the debate on Islam as a domestic issue in Europe. That is, Islam as a set of political and collectivist ideas. Native Europeans have been asked over and over again by their leaders to be tolerant and accepting of Muslims. They have done that. And that can be measured a) by the amount of taxpayer money that is invested in healthcare, housing, education, and welfare for Muslims and b) the hundreds of thousands of Muslims who are knocking on the doors of Europe to be admitted. If those people who cry that Europe is intolerant are right, if there was, indeed, xenophobia and a rejection of Muslims, then we would have observed the reverse. There would have been an exodus of Muslims out of Europe.

There is indeed a wider international confrontation between Islam and the West. The Iraq and Afghan wars are part of that, not to mention the ongoing struggle between Israelis and Palestinians and the nuclear ambitions of Iran. That confrontation should never be confused with the local problem of absorbing those Muslims who have been permitted to become permanent residents and citizens into European societies.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, author of "Infidel," is the Somali-born women's rights advocate and former Dutch parliamentarian. Her forthcoming book is entitled "Nomad."

© 2009 Global Viewpoint Network / Tribune Media Services. Hosted online by The Christian Science Monitor.
 
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@Halaku
Thanks for bringing that up, I think I should put the background on why I choose Maulana Wahidudin Khan particularly compared to other scholars who also hold the same views.

Maulana Wahiduddin Khan was part of the Jamaat-Islami under Maududi before Independance, but after the partition when Maududi flipped on his stand on a united India and went to Pakistan; he refused to change his stance and stayed in India ultimately parting ways with the organisation. It is pertinent to note that Maududi actually studied as a journalist NOT a traditional Islamic scholar. Although the honorific Maulana is attached to him by some, he had never completed his studies and studied hardly a year before he was taken ill and then never came back to finish his education.

According to him( as well as many traditional Islamic scholars), Maududi’s understanding of Islam was faulty and mistaken, which was basically a reaction to western imperialism rather than emerging from an authentic understanding of Islam. This is similar to Syed Qutb's understanding as well who was the Egyptian ideologue. Faced with the challenge of European colonial rule over most of the Muslim world, Maududi and Qutb had developed a political understanding of Islam, seeing the Islamic mission wrongly as based on political struggle while not ruling out violent means to attain it and establish an Utopian society. Dr Israr Ahmed (who is a medical doctor after all) was also part of Maududi's Jamaat Islami but obviously he hasn't given up that ideology.

This is the same concept used by communist revolutionaries to bring about communism by taking the poor along with them and use violent means even to take over political power like Maoists did in China or Bolsheviks in Russia. The Zionists extremists and terrorists groups in the 50s and 60s used the same concept when the indulged in ethnic clensing of arab minorities from the then Israeli state. More recently we have seen the influence on Hindu extremists groups as well were now the same ideology is being fractures and resulting in terrorists groups like Abhinav Bharat whose end goal is to establish and utopian society after destabilizing the current political structure.

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AS a side note, I would say that bringing up Maududi was very pertinent of you as he is definitely part of this debate along with Syed Qutb and similar ideologues and I commend you for that. I would agree that there would be some fringe Islamic scholars even apart from engineers, doctors e.t.c. who have donned the Islamic scholar garb like Ayman Zawahiri, Omar Sheikh, Dr. Israr Ahmed e.t.c. who will support this view. You have maulana fazlur rahman in Pakistan for example who runs on an Islamist platform on elections.

But the overwhelming majority of traditional Islamic scholars have low respect for such opportunistic use of Islam and are condemned even in Pakistan itself for this. For example there was a recent statement by saying that Maulana Fazlur Rehman is just a politician and has nothing to do with Islamic teachings. He is derisively called Mulla Diesel as well. The majority of muslims who are not following Islam or don't know about Islamic teachings fall prey to these political Islamic groups because of their aggressive media campaigns and are more prominent in the west, while the traditional view is to be apolitcal and refrain from media interaction. I do hope that traditional Islamic scholars shun their aversion to media and take up a stringer stand on this particular aspect.

Yes its very clear that Islam is against terrorism in all its forms but like Maulana Khan mentioned in his speech, the political Islamic ideology as propounded by Maududi et al need to be condemned as well.
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Of course, I agree with you that Islam is a way of life, but it is an way to each individual, be he a father, mother, doctor, politicians or president. For example, As a politician, he has to be honest , stay away from corruption and work for justice of the people sincerely, appoint people based on merit to act out his duty sincerely, there are aspects of Islam that defines his way of life as a politician. Similarly, there could be a democratic, dictatorship, kingdom, or some other form of governance but Islam will pay an important and individual role in each of these forms for muslims. Ironically, most western government are fulfilling more requirements of Islam such as equal opportunity for all, welfare state, laws against discrimination, check on corruption e.t.c. than many muslim countries. So Islam is encompassing the political sphere in this as well but in the individual sense.

The idea like Maududi and other ideologues mention that a war should be waged to establish a new politcal system and force Islam top down is compeltley different from traditional Islam and hence will lead to failure as it being seen and hopefully will be finshed soon.

The book "The failure of political Islam" by Oliver Roy is pretty relevant on this and describes the new ideology that took place in the 40s and its situation today.
 
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Well first of the majority of the swiss were local european muslims not migrants. Moreover all western governments UN, including the Vatican has said that this is a vote on intolerance so Hirshi Ali is in the minority in her view.

European countries provided asylum to many of these political Islamic ideologues (they still provide shelter to some of these wanted people and groups!), particularly France and Britain as well as other smaller countries. This along with 9/11 has created a small population among muslims that may be intolerant among the migrants that have been deprived or discriminated against. But they hardly constitute the overwhelming majority.
 
This is the same concept used by communist revolutionaries to bring about communism by taking the poor along with them and use violent means even to take over political power like Maoists did in China or Bolsheviks in Russia. The Zionists extremists and terrorists groups in the 50s and 60s used the same concept when the indulged in ethnic clensing of arab minorities from the then Israeli state. More recently we have seen the influence on Hindu extremists groups as well were now the same ideology is being fractures and resulting in terrorists groups like Abhinav Bharat whose end goal is to establish and utopian society after destabilizing the current political structure.

...

The idea like Maududi and other ideologues mention that a war should be waged to establish a new politcal system and force Islam top down is compeltley different from traditional Islam and hence will lead to failure as it being seen and hopefully will be finshed soon.

I agree with your analysis that visions of utopia are often used to motivate and mislead people.

Now, to decide who best represents "traditional Islam", Wahiduddin or Maududi, one will have compare their views with the original Islam of 7th century Arabia.

IMHO, this can best be settled by trilateral debates between (1) Maududi supporters (2) Wahiduddin supporters and (3) skeptics (people like M.A. Khan and Ali Sina).

A number of debates can be found archived here: Debates
 

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