Confirmation required: BAF to loan one squadron of J-10A.

[Anubis]

During the last rule by your army, we had very good relations with the army too. I'm not at all claiming they will show their tech to us, I just don't have any data to make such an assertion, but India generally tries to maintain a good working relation with BD as we should. Its on this site that I see BDs proclaiming India is enemy blah blah blah, but on the ground its different. I really do not see grounds strong enough to have enmity. Irritants yes, but they exist, BD even has irritants with Myanmar too, and India ith Nepal and even Bhutan. If the BD posters here showed a little more maturity it would make the section slightly credible. Shrill one sided whining is boring.

If you consider actively sheltering,arming,supporting insurgents in you neighboring countries as 'irritants' then I fully agree with. We are good friends that are trying to break each other apart.

 

[Abingdonboy]

WTF?????..................

Well actually the J10As are on par to the Mig 29SMTs and may be UG versions but I doubt that much better, as for the Mirages I think the J10As are better. The J10Bs are much better then either, and the tech in them are quite new, so it's unlikely we would have access to them any time soon.

I think it's actually a good idea to lease the J10As for the time being, say the next 5-10 years then by which time our economy should exceed $250bn and with a annual defence budget of over $5bn we can buy the export versions of the J31s. Then with a combination of J31s and later blocks of Chinese built J17s or J10Bs, we will have a small but effective airforce.

You need to read up on the India-specific UPG standard for the MIG-29 and M2K-5 mk.2 for the Mirage 2000 that India is getting.

 

[notsuperstitious]

If you consider actively sheltering,arming,supporting insurgents in you neighboring countries as 'irritants' then I fully agree with. We are good friends that are trying to break each other apart.

Good friends? We are trying to break each other apart?

Ok buddy, have a good day.

 

[Abingdonboy]

WTF?????..................

They will have the J-20/31 well before you get your hands on the Pak-Fa(you wont be getting the F-35).Since your backbone will be the Tejas(not so scary) or the Sukhois you have now the Chinese have nothing to fear.And since with all the drones ans sats you have J-10 should not be a thing you should be worried about.They will always have an edge over you.And not to mention your horrible foreign policy you have successfully alienated your self in the neighborhood while your enemy is making friends with everyone.

Whoa thats a lot of jingoism and nonsense for one post.


Firstly, according to you CHINA is going to produce a fully-fledged 5th gen- who up till now has shown little evidence they have the requisite expertise to take on such an ambitious project in such time frames-fighter before RUSSIA- who has been working on a 5th gen fighter for decades?

Secondly, the Tejas isn't going to be the backbone of the IAF fleet, it's numbers will be similar to the Rafale in the IAF ie around 100-200+ units but the backbone will actually be the some 300 Su-30MKIs which will be upgraded to the "Super" std and around 1/3rd of the fleet will have ALCM (Bhramos) launch capability. Quite frankly there is nothing that will touch these birds in the region for at least a decade or so well until the FGFA enters service

 

[Anubis]

Whoa thats a lot of jingoism and nonsense for one post.


Firstly, according to you CHINA is going to produce a fully-fledged 5th gen- who up till now has shown little evidence they have the requisite expertise to take on such an ambitious project in such time frames-fighter before RUSSIA- who has been working on a 5th gen fighter for decades?

Secondly, the Tejas isn't going to be the backbone of the IAF fleet, it's numbers will be similar to the Rafale in the IAF ie around 100-200+ units but the backbone will actually be the some 300 Su-30MKIs which will be upgraded to the "Super" std and around 1/3rd of the fleet will have ALCM (Bhramos) launch capability. Quite frankly there is nothing that will touch these birds in the region for at least a decade or so well until the FGFA enters service

They are flight testing their 31s.And you are waiting to starting your program after Russia completes it's t50 program.Russia might have Pak fa before j31 but its gonna take at least a decade to get your Fgfa after Pak-fa is.By that time China will have squadrons of fifth gen fighters which are under flight test right now.They are ahead of you.They have Mkks and J11s.They are ahead of you.

 

[chhota bheem]

The Lavi theory was denied by both the Chinese and the Israelis.

Asia Times

It seems there was active help till 89 i guess.

 

[Abingdonboy]

They are flight testing their 31s.And you are waiting to starting your program after Russia completes it's t50 program.Russia might have Pak fa before j31 but its gonna take at least a decade to get your Fgfa after Pak-fa is.By that time China will have squadrons of fifth gen fighters which are under flight test right now.They are ahead of you.They have Mkks and J11s.They are ahead of you.

The FGFA will be in IAF service by 2020 at the latest. And any sane person can reasonably expect the FGFA to be far superior to the J-31/20 in qualitative terms. The FGFA will be built on the decades of Russian aerospace expertise and then will mate world-class sub-systems from the West and India to produce a superb machine.

The Chinese are good but they're not that good!



Also the MKI right now is superior to the MKK and J-11. When the "super" upgrade takes place- forget about it!

 

[UKBengali]

The FGFA will be in IAF service by 2020 at the latest. And any sane person can reasonably expect the FGFA to be far superior to the J-31/20 in qualitative terms. The FGFA will be built on the decades of Russian aerospace expertise and then will mate world-class sub-systems from the West and India to produce a superb machine.

The Chinese are good but they're not that good!



Also the MKI right now is superior to the MKK and J-11. When the "super" upgrade takes place- forget about it!

That is your opinion so please do not speak for others.

What is a fact is that the current PAK-FA is not a truly stealth fighter whereas the J-20 is - around 80% of stealth is aircraft shaping rather than RAM coatings.

Russia does not exactly excel in electronics. China has a much more sophisticated electronics industry than Russia has and this should help them in creating fifth-generation avionics more than the Russians.

The one area where the Russians may have an advantage is in aircraft engines but you can be sure that the Chinese will go all out to produce a reliable and powerfully enough engine to power the J-20/J-31 if they possible can.

Lastly, you have no evidence that the MKI is better than the J-11B.

 

[Abingdonboy]

That is your opinion so please do not speak for others.

What is a fact is that the current PAK-FA is not a truly stealth fighter whereas the J-20 is - around 80% of stealth is aircraft shaping rather than RAM coatings.

Russia does not exactly excel in electronics. China has a much more sophisticated electronics industry than Russia has and this should help them in creating fifth-generation avionics more than the Russians.

The one area where the Russians may have an advantage is in aircraft engines but you can be sure that the Chinese will go all out to produce a reliable and powerfully enough engine to power the J-20/J-31 if they possible can.

Lastly, you have no evidence that the MKI is better than the J-11B.

Yes the Russians are not stellar at electronics and this is how the MKI and now FGFA have come about, the Indians take a superb airframe with some world-class electronics and then go to others to source the best all-round product. So you will see French, Israeli and Indian electronics on the FGFA that makes up for any perceived Russian weakness in this area. To say the Chinese are ahead in this arena (avionics/mission systems) is pretty debatable and I'd argue false.

 

[Akasa]

The FGFA will be in IAF service by 2020 at the latest. And any sane person can reasonably expect the FGFA to be far superior to the J-31/20 in qualitative terms. The FGFA will be built on the decades of Russian aerospace expertise and then will mate world-class sub-systems from the West and India to produce a superb machine.

The Chinese are good but they're not that good!



Also the MKI right now is superior to the MKK and J-11. When the "super" upgrade takes place- forget about it!

But the Chinese don't just operate the basic J-11. They operate the J-11B, which, after its AESA upgrades, with its composites that save over 700 kg of mass, RAM, MAWS, IRST, and new cockpit, should be more than a match for the Su-30MKI.

And then you have the J-15 and J-16 which feature even more upgrades.

Here's why the FGFA won't be "far superior" to the J-31/J-20:
- FGFA and T-50 have pretty bad stealth shaping, due to its lack of planform alignment, lack of smooth profile, lack of saw tooth edges, lack of single piece canopy, and protruding surfaces like the IRST.
- J-20's radar would feature 1800+ T/R modules and is generally believed to be on par with that of the AN/APG-77. China has had far more experience with AESA radars, has more companies to produce it, and has built and deployed far more models of them than Russia.
- J-20 also has EODAS, giving it a 360 degree passive detection ability. Only one other plane uses an all-aspect system like this, and that is the F-35.

Any sane person can deduce that it would be erroneous to judge a country's present capabilities purely based on its history. Russia may have had a glorious record, and perhaps China was nothing but a fly on the wall back in the Cold War, but that certainly does not necessarily represent the situation today.

Yes the Russians are not stellar at electronics and this is how the MKI and now FGFA have come about, the Indians take a superb airframe with some world-class electronics and then go to others to source the best all-round product. So you will see French, Israeli and Indian electronics on the FGFA that makes up for any perceived Russian weakness in this area. To say the Chinese are ahead in this arena (avionics/mission systems) is pretty debatable and I'd argue false.

China has far more experience dealing with AESA radars than any of the aforementioned countries. They have more companies which manufacture them, allowing the PLAAF to select through competition, and they've built and deployed a larger number of variants and models of AESA radars as well.

Asia Times

It seems there was active help till 89 i guess.

I think the Israelis denied that they have anything to do with the program; the J-10 designer claims that it was developed from the canceled J-9 design.

 

[Abingdonboy]

But the Chinese don't just operate the basic J-11. They operate the J-11B, which, after its AESA upgrades, with its composites that save over 700 kg of mass, RAM, MAWS, IRST, and new cockpit, should be more than a match for the Su-30MKI.

And then you have the J-15 and J-16 which feature even more upgrades.

Here's why the FGFA won't be "far superior" to the J-31/J-20:
- FGFA and T-50 have pretty bad stealth shaping, due to its lack of planform alignment, lack of smooth profile, lack of saw tooth edges, lack of single piece canopy, and protruding surfaces like the IRST.
- J-20's radar would feature 1800+ T/R modules and is generally believed to be on par with that of the AN/APG-77. China has had far more experience with AESA radars, has more companies to produce it, and has built and deployed far more models of them than Russia.
- J-20 also has EODAS, giving it a 360 degree passive detection ability. Only one other plane uses an all-aspect system like this, and that is the F-35.

Any sane person can deduce that it would be erroneous to judge a country's present capabilities purely based on its history. Russia may have had a glorious record, and perhaps China was nothing but a fly on the wall back in the Cold War, but that certainly does not necessarily represent the situation today.



China has far more experience dealing with AESA radars than any of the aforementioned countries. They have more companies which manufacture them, allowing the PLAAF to select through competition, and they've built and deployed a larger number of variants and models of AESA radars as well.



I think the Israelis denied that they have anything to do with the program; the J-10 designer claims that it was developed from the canceled J-9 design.

I salute you sir! A rare site on this DEFENCE forum- some actual facts and well reasoned argument.


You make a fair point all round but the point about the FGFA/PAK-FA lacking this or that is rather irrelevant IMHO as the final production version is at least 5 years away and we already know for sure a single-peice canopy for instance is in the works. Yes you can't change the basic design but some of the minor details you've mentioned will/can be addressed between now and then.


To be honest I was reluctant to get into a PAK-FA/FGFA vs J-XX debate as we haven go specs on the final production models of either machine as of yet. And in the case of the FGFA, the first prototype is still a few years away from being revealed.

 

[Luffy 500]

Highly doubtful.

 

[eastwatch]

They already are, didn't you know MMS is actually DGFI plant, why else would we be able to send those billions of BDs there.

Well, MMS is not a DGFI mole. But, at least one of our moles in Indian defense ministry was exposed two years ago. He was a big officer. India's intel is so excellent that he fled back to BD before being caught.

 

[Bamboo Castle]

@bamboocastle , your right im not sure why everyone is getting so worked up about??

Okay, first up, J-10s on a loan is a huge goddam piece of news,Why would the BD government not go out and publicly announce it??Mig 29s were announced,F-7BGIs were. This would give the AL a massive staning platform to advocate that they had a successful tenure in pricuring military procurement.

Second, China is givining us TOT for the type 056 corvette, one of their most advanced warships, do you really think they care about the J-10s???

Until i see an actual news report from proper sources(even BD news), this is complete BS.

Do you have any source that supports your claim?

 

[Akasa]

I salute you sir! A rare site on this DEFENCE forum- some actual facts and well reasoned argument.


You make a fair point all round but the point about the FGFA/PAK-FA lacking this or that is rather irrelevant IMHO as the final production version is at least 5 years away and we already know for sure a single-peice canopy for instance is in the works. Yes you can't change the basic design but some of the minor details you've mentioned will/can be addressed between now and then.


To be honest I was reluctant to get into a PAK-FA/FGFA vs J-XX debate as we haven go specs on the final production models of either machine as of yet. And in the case of the FGFA, the first prototype is still a few years away from being revealed.

There is no doubt that the T-50 is not in the final form right now. Perhaps the Russian engineers hastily produced a functioning prototype and are planning to do the refinements later. There's another possibility that Russia decided to forgo all-aspect stealth to retain the advantages offered by the classic Flanker airframe: a tight turning radius and roll rate.

The J-20 also sacrificed some of its stealth, albeit in a dramatically smaller manner, to adopt the famed canard-delta design.

It'll be interesting to know if the FGFA adopts the same airframe configuration as the baseline T-50.

There have been a few derivatives of the J-20 planned as well.