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Concerning the Fall of Constantinople...

TNT said:
That seems a load of bullshit. Ofcourse the defeated ones would make up these stories to show they were barbarians. In today's world, what would ukranian say abt russian invasion? Yes a lot of exaggeration. Now if centuries passed, this exaggeration would multiply several times.
Muslims have mostly been humane, one example is salhuddin ayubi. The stories told by westerners are nothing more than bullshit.
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yeah salahdin not turks the ottomans doesnt mean theyre muslim that they are humane
 
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thetutle said:
there are reasons why Bosnians are stereotyped as stupid in most jokes. unfortunately in all wars our inteltigensia was killed first and we have what we have.

But of course any orthodox people who are not aligned with the west are our enemies and we will say things that we think will annoy them.

any greek or serb that sides with russia is just incomprehensible to me. they are greatly misguided and do themselves no favours. even mist Russians in Ukraine have turned against russia, I know a few personally.
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I have no reason to explain anything to this greek fella who from what i read is constantly white washing serb crimes and whine about "injustice" from international community towards them.
on liberation claim, it is well known fact that at the time remnants of eastern roman empire were despotic, backward and highly injustice society for general population, so in context of medieval history and civilization tangent, you can consider it as liberation.

and yes, thank you for implying that i am stupid.
 
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mulj said:
I have no reason to explain anything to this greek fella who from what i read is constantly white washing serb crimes and whine about "injustice" from international community towards them.
on liberation claim, it is well known fact that at the time remnants of eastern roman empire were despotic, backward and highly injustice society for general population, so in context of medieval history and civilization tangent, you can consider it as liberation.

and yes, thank you for implying that i am stupid.
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Yes he is like that, but there is a need to explain to other people reading this what the right position is.

You may not be stupid but claiming Istanbul was liberated is just silly and childish. He is called Mehmed the "conqueror" after all. They conquered us too.

I have to disagree with such patent dishonestly. Constantinople was conquered, its now Turkish, Greeks aren't getting it back. end of story. Thats a harsh truth and 800 years later they are still moaning over it.
 
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TNT said:
That seems a load of bullshit. Ofcourse the defeated ones would make up these stories to show they were barbarians. In today's world, what would ukranian say abt russian invasion? Yes a lot of exaggeration. Now if centuries passed, this exaggeration would multiply several times.
Muslims have mostly been humane, one example is salhuddin ayubi. The stories told by westerners are nothing more than bullshit.
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It didn't work like that back then. There was rarely anything compared to the propaganda of today. It's history and these are the sources. This subject has been researched again and again,accounts and sources have been investigated and compared.
If you as a muslim and pro-Ottoman cannot accept it,that is another matter. And I'm not only saying you as TNT,but any person who thinks in the same way.

Also what you said about "muslims have mostly been humane" and then giving Saladin as an example,that is just generalizing and being vague. Saladin was an exceptional and rare figure in Muslim history,for many reasons. There were quite a lot of aggressive and oppressive muslims even if you want to believe it or discard everything from Byzantine to Frankish to Northern European sources as "propaganda".

Now watch it,I'm not saying all muslims or that "most muslims" were evil. But saying "muslims have mostly been humane",that is also a generalisation.

It seems that a lot of muslims,from what I see here,have a problem with historical sources and somehow compare it to modern propaganda campaigns of the 20th and 21st century by the Western world.
 
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Dude, serbian prominent historians conclueded in their research that Ottomans were welcomed as liberators and gave the balkan 200 years of peace and prosperity, you are unable to accept the fact that ortodoxy feudal states were rotten to the core and fed up with their so call noble class.
you sound like some serb ortodoxists, delusional and with "past glory" complex....and if the greeks are nearly as the serbs your words can not be trusted at all, based on recent history which imply that it was same in past.
 
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mulj said:
on liberation claim, it is well known fact that at the time remnants of eastern roman empire were despotic, backward and highly injustice society for general population, so in context of medieval history and civilization tangent, you can consider it as liberation.
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Actually the Eastern Roman Empire was the most educated,advanced and cultured State in the medieval world when it comes to Christian political entities. That was one reason the Latins despised it. The Byzantine Empire could only be compared with the best of the Arab States that valued culture,arts,literature and sciences.

thetutle said:
Yes he is like that, but there is a need to explain to other people reading this what the right position is.
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Let's not open this debate again,because it's a HUGE discussion and we're not going anywhere with it.

thetutle said:
You may not be stupid but claiming Istanbul was liberated is just silly and childish. He is called Mehmed the "conqueror" after all. They conquered us too.
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Tell him,because somehow he's got history mixed in his head. That's like the Frankish king leading a Crusade to Baghdad and saying "There,we liberated it".
 
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ERE at least last 300 hundred years was shackle of its early medieval glory and pitiful puppet entity unable to take care of it is own affairs, cucked by their western brothers even by savage bulgarians, serbs etc...., so at the end Turks left them out of their misery and in that sense it could be considered as liberation.
 
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mulj said:
Dude, serbian prominent historians conclueded in their research that Ottomans were welcomed as liberators and gave the balkan 200 years of peace and prosperity, you are unable to accept the fact that ortodoxy feudal states were rotten to the core and fed up with their so call noble class.
you sound like some serb ortodoxists, delusional and with "past glory" complex....and if the greeks are nearly as the serbs your words can not be trusted at all, based on recent history which imply that it was same in past.
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What are you even talking about? The Ottomans forced their way to the Balkans,they conquered. The Serbs were paying tribute to them,so they were dragged to wars against other Christians,because that was their obligation as vassals to the Sultan. Then we have the Battle at Kosovo in 1389,then we have the complete conquest of Serbia,Bulgaria and the almost all of mainland Greece.

You called the Byzantine Empire "despotic" earlier. Tell me,weren't the Arab and Turkish Sultanates and Emirates despotic?
Stop saying silly things man. Ajde,ajde.

mulj said:
ERE last 300 hundred years was shackle of its early medieval glory and pitiful puppet entity unable to take care of it is own affairs, cucked by their western brothers even by savage bulgarians, serbs etc...., so at the end Turks left them out of their misery and in that sense it could be considered as liberation.
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What kind of mindset is that? With the same mindset,someone could come and say: "Oh BiH has been a poor country,full of war and divided between Western and Russian influence,politically incompetent,oh we'll give it to Russia to annex it,to put them out of their misery".
 
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Foinikas said:
What are you even talking about? The Ottomans forced their way to the Balkans,they conquered. The Serbs were paying tribute to them,so they were dragged to wars against other Christians,because that was their obligation as vassals to the Sultan. Then we have the Battle at Kosovo in 1389,then we have the complete conquest of Serbia,Bulgaria and the almost all of mainland Greece.

You called the Byzantine Empire "despotic" earlier. Tell me,weren't the Arab and Turkish Sultanates and Emirates despotic?
Stop saying silly things man. Ajde,ajde.
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I am talking about common people not feudal lords and cleric, in east balkan common people welcomed ottomans as liberators, no need to assume otherwise that was the key with Byzantine too.

Despotic in sense of just towards common folks, not despot as feudal title and it is proven fact that feudals of the time in the parts of world which were under rule of muslims were something like USA today towards Congo in comparation with their ortodox or chatollics pears.
 
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mulj said:
I am talking about common people not feudal lords and cleric, in east balkan common people welcomed ottomans as liberators, no need to assume otherwise that was the key with Byzantine too.

Despotic in sense of just towards common folks, not despot as feudal title and it is proven fact that feudals of the time in the parts of world which were under rule of muslims were something like USA today towards Congo in comparation with their ortodox or chatollics pears.
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Who the f is telling you all that? Have you read any chronicles of the era? You know,sources. There's a gazillion sources talking about how terrible the Ottomans were when they invaded or conquered. They certainly didn't see it as "liberation".
 
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i am quite familiar with orientalist and nationalistic historians from western hemisphere but truth can not be contained as the mentioned one is full of lies and colonially driven agendas.

if you want to be closer to truth check peoples work like Dr. Stef Keris who as professional witnessed that by himself and rejected the narrative completely.
 
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mulj said:
i am quite familiar with orientalist and nationalistic historians from western hemisphere but truth can not be contained as the mentioned one is full of lies and colonially driven agendas.

if you want to be closer to truth check peoples work like Dr. Stef Keris who as professional witnessed that by himself and rejected the narrative completely.
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I'm talking about SOURCES.

Medieval chronicles. First-hand information. Testimonies.
 
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