Cold Start Doctrine - An Indian dream to invade & divide Pakistan

[idune]

Indian cold start doctrine was devised based on numeric superiority of indian conventional forces. Assumption that india can overwhelm using conventional force was hightly doubtful but readily gullible in south block. And in last decade Pakistan possession on battlefield tactical N weapon put indian military strategists on the run. Not only indian numeric superiority diminished but also indian ability for any ill adventure is just a pipe dream.

 

[ucmicu]

First we can develop more warheads other than nuclear which can be fully destructive for your forces close to our border and secondly moving most off your forces to our border in 72 hours is impossible by the time you reach our border most off our forces will be already on your border

I'm afraid I have to disagree that Pak will be the first to use nukes. However one simulates it -- in any Indo pak war, Pakis will take more territory in Punjab than they will loose in sind (if they loose any!) yet they will then face a naval blockade. Even if the element of surprise is incorporated -- and for that matter even nukes, tactical or strategic -- the end result is the same: if pak can withstand a blockade, it pushes india back. If Pak can challenge INDIAN oil supply altogether -- India is finished. Pakistan needs to use its geographical advantage -- buy your oil by land, and strike indian oil supply where it is most vulnerable -- in the gulf of oman. The war for kashmir is to be fought from jiwani / gwadar. In fact I say we should not even focus upon taking territory from the enemy -- just focus on oil, and you have it squared.

 

[GR!FF!N]

Son to win a ground war on the indo pak plains -- you need more tanks -- not 'cold starting' but in the battle. How many of your tanks would be at the border by the time your border has started approaching your tanks at the same speed?! Pak simply has its cities and hence its cantonments nearer to the border: which essentially means that you will find yourself pushed back and demoralized by the time you engage your enemy. It is simply geography -- not any machoism or any 'cold starting'!

In case you disagree, why would delhi choose to have almost the same number of tanks as Pakistan? while maintaining 150% (quantitatively) the airforce -- and investing in its navy as if its the indian ocean's defence budget rather than the indian state's!

don't know what you've posted in the first part.either I'm quite weak in English or you've posted some poorly built sentences.could you rephrase and post properly??what do you meant by the blue part??

about Tanks.................................

India has some 3500 tanks,all of them are either T-90(1050),T-72 Improved Ajeya Standard(2414) or Arjun(248).India's Strike Corps use T-90 and T-72.India generally transports Tanks using Train or Support Vehicle.and it doesn't take much to transport Tanks using Train..a simple Engine can transport entire Brigade with support vessels.one example.........

this one from USA......

as of you know,India has extensive rail network and it's not much of a problem to transport tanks to the border...

Pakistan has some 320+ Al Khalid and some 300 T-80.

I discarded all the previous generation Tanks.you may add some 600 Al Zarrar,upgraded T-55,but then,India has strategic reserve of 800 T-55 and some 2000 Vaijayant.

from whatever point you choose,the number looks completely mismatched.

 

[WishLivePak]

Political turmoil happens in every country. There are election boycotts in India as well. Granted that BD has suffered coups, but that stage is long gone now.

What matters is that Institutions of the country keep making the country better despite them. The way to verify these things are looking up stats like HDI, social progress, literacy, economic growth. BD is doing well despite its political challenges and is beating India in economic growth.

Well if of the two major parties, one completely boycotts it, then it's big news. But then you're an Indian and you'd see Bangladesh as successful, whereas being Pakistani I don't see it being one.

Literacy is low.

 

[Thorough Pro]

BS

Did you all guys even know what the Cold Start doctrine is?

 

[Contrarian]

Well if of the two major parties, one completely boycotts it, then it's big news. But then you're an Indian and you'd see Bangladesh as successful, whereas being Pakistani I don't see it being one.

Literacy is low.

No doubt. It is big news. But political turmoil happens in every country.
I judge a country based on stats, not on feelings. I see Bangladesh improving...and faster than India. Therefore I give them credit for it. I dont see them as successful yet, but I do see them firmly rooted on the path to success. With the way they are going, they will no doubt become successful in a few decades.

A while back, they were not growing, stuck in politics and coups, I recognize that fact as well.

 

[Kshatriya87]

Well, Pakistan don`t need to eloborate anti cold doctrine, they have a plan but they don`t need to show everything... Remember Dude..!! ISI and Pak Army always one step ahead of all world so be careful to take any action..silly Indians.. :p

hahaha.. one step ahead.. good joke.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Well if of the two major parties, one completely boycotts it, then it's big news. But then you're an Indian and you'd see Bangladesh as successful, whereas being Pakistani I don't see it being one.

Bangladesh is doing fairly well compared to ailing Pakistan by corrupt regimes, Majority of Pakistanis see BD successful unlike minority likes of yours.

 

[WishLivePak]

Bangladesh is doing fairly well compared to ailing Pakistan by corrupt regimes, Majority of Pakistanis see BD successful unlike minority likes of yours.

why are you quoting me mister?

Don't you've better things to do? Oh wait, who am I even speaking with.

No doubt. It is big news. But political turmoil happens in every country.
I judge a country based on stats, not on feelings. I see Bangladesh improving...and faster than India. Therefore I give them credit for it. I dont see them as successful yet, but I do see them firmly rooted on the path to success. With the way they are going, they will no doubt become successful in a few decades.

A while back, they were not growing, stuck in politics and coups, I recognize that fact as well.

I don't look at future, as present define future. Bangladesh has some 57% literacy rate while Pakistan has 55.

While I was in Pakistan, i kept hearing how Pakistan is an awesome nation and how it's on path to becoming an important asian power house.. Well, 2 decades forward, we've only gotten worse. So again, present defines future.

Also you need to stop taking the political turmoil so lightly. Such boycotts means the nation is not progressive. It also means that the opposition army may try to win army support and whatnot. Now these are speculation, but it does happen in many countries plagued with coups.

 

[ucmicu]

The most important question is what will India do by invading Pakistan? What is the benefit?

HSR links with the rest of the world

you do understand the concept of "Cold Start",right??its not full mobilization within 72 hours.its about winning the war within 72 hours.the concept is not engaging troops and gets bogged down.the concept is somewhat a "Modern Blitzkrieg".destroy the force what needed to be destroyed.let entrenched and defensive structure of enemy intact,bypass them and occupy territory(limited).you do know about fighting enemy with ground of your choosing,right??revisit 71 war again.study the tactics.only this time,it'll be far more swift,far more synchronized,far more network-centric.

only recently,one article got posted where USA simulated similar war,where Pakistan used 2 tactical nukes,while India replied with 4 or more.it showed the futility to use tactical nukes.you should study it deeply,and discover the flaw.see,be it tactical or a megaton nuke,once used,all restriction will be "OFF".its not only India who'll retaliate,expect far larger response from other world powers as well.even if Pakistan stop the Indian Offensive,they'll be the ultimate loser,as in International Community then going to isolate and impose strict sanctions.Pakistan will become post WW-I Germany,just several times worse.

Pakistan is only 11% of the ummah -- "OFF".....!

 

[ucmicu]

don't know what you've posted in the first part.either I'm quite weak in English or you've posted some poorly built sentences.could you rephrase and post properly??what do you meant by the blue part??

about Tanks.................................

India has some 3500 tanks,all of them are either T-90(1050),T-72 Improved Ajeya Standard(2414) or Arjun(248).India's Strike Corps use T-90 and T-72.India generally transports Tanks using Train or Support Vehicle.and it doesn't take much to transport Tanks using Train..a simple Engine can transport entire Brigade with support vessels.one example.........

this one from USA......

as of you know,India has extensive rail network and it's not much of a problem to transport tanks to the border...

Pakistan has some 320+ Al Khalid and some 300 T-80.

I discarded all the previous generation Tanks.you may add some 600 Al Zarrar,upgraded T-55,but then,India has strategic reserve of 800 T-55 and some 2000 Vaijayant.

from whatever point you choose,the number looks completely mismatched.

It really gets irritating when you indians start talking of the "superiority" of your gear. I mean I remember the 'surgical strikes' by your mig-29s! Anyhow, I'm not sure if any 'superiority' would matter. The indo pak theater is overwhelmingly geography. simulate this:

T=0:
besides the normal that u would expect and don't need to be stated...
1) a task force of pn plus paf cuts u off from the gulf while securing its own shipping in that direction. Now before you resort to any captain america style planning -- remember it will be IN vs PN AND PAF!
2) second task force goes for ankhoor. By the time you have 'cold started' -- you are DCed from Kashmir
3) third offensive is primarily armor -- going straight to delhi. you have cold started towards thar, yet your capital is under threat!! you have no choice but to abandon your offensive in the desert -- and attack the attack pushing towards your capital
4) by the time your 'strike' whatever -- has cold started -- and is now ready to join the war (and save your ladies in delhi). pakistan moves it nuclear muscle and we have ceasefire. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but this last option is only available to islamabad: delhi has signed NFU policy

So darlings: fighting pakistan, is about reaching the border before pakistan can publicly move its nuclear muscle. By the time you can reach the border, you are DCed from kashmir and the gulf. you bravely save your capital -- bravo on that.... you macho you... you just always win...

 

[GR!FF!N]

It really gets irritating when you indians start talking of the "superiority" of your gear. I mean I remember the 'surgical strikes' by your mig-29s! Anyhow, I'm not sure if any 'superiority' would matter. The indo pak theater is overwhelmingly geography. simulate this:

T=0:
besides the normal that u would expect and don't need to be stated...
1) a task force of pn plus paf cuts u off from the gulf while securing its own shipping in that direction. Now before you resort to any captain america style planning -- remember it will be IN vs PN AND PAF!
2) second task force goes for ankhoor. By the time you have 'cold started' -- you are DCed from Kashmir
3) third offensive is primarily armor -- going straight to delhi. you have cold started towards thar, yet your capital is under threat!! you have no choice but to abandon your offensive in the desert -- and attack the attack pushing towards your capital
4) by the time your 'strike' whatever -- has cold started -- and is now ready to join the war (and save your ladies in delhi). pakistan moves it nuclear muscle and we have ceasefire. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but this last option is only available to islamabad: delhi has signed NFU policy

So darlings: fighting pakistan, is about reaching the border before pakistan can publicly move its nuclear muscle. By the time you can reach the border, you are DCed from kashmir and the gulf. you bravely save your capital -- bravo on that.... you macho you... you just always win...

First..Mig-29 is not going to be used for "Surgical Strike".its air superiority fighter.probably other fighters like Mirage,Mig-27,Jaguar or SU-30 will be used.

now,lets discuss some points......

1...PN doesn't have resource to fight an offensive war.IN is vastly superior,be it in quality or quantity.PN doesn't have to dispatch some "Task Force" as well as defend their own border.at most,some hit and run using Subs,thats all....about IN vs PAF and PN,don't you think PAF will be overburdened as they'll have to Strike and defend IN and IA as well as fight with IAF,which is much larger force??do you even play chess??in chess,overburdened piece gets attacked with utmost lethality and whole defence gets vanished.thats why military planners never rely on Overburdened piece.remember 71 war??no air cover for PA when needed and they lost battle of Basantar??thats why IN has its own air fleet to cover its own force,be it fro CBG or from shore based bases.IAF will barely going to be bothered.so,your assumption is false.but even if you want to discuss this point,you can draw some scenario,i'll make you understand.

2.Task Force for Akhnoor.hmm..do you know the number of soldiers present in Kashmir??plus,how many soldiers you're planning to use in this offensive??let me remind you,Pakistan used the same tactics in each war,but with little success.

3.Going straight to Delhi??nice idea..using which route??its Punjab,Rajasthan as well as Kashmir which will be our pads to launch any offensive.in case of Gujrat,it'll be guarded by Navy.are you planning some massive marine landing somewhere in Maharashtra or an airborne assault?? dude,use your brain.

4.there is nothing about "Signing NFU"..India adopted this approach,and its only sane approach.see,I repeatedly said,whenever we discuss anything on this issue,Pakistani members always jump with Nuke.but its only the last resort,not the very first. what about previous attempts to stall Indian Advance,Fighting a defensive war,or slowly retreating and luring Indian force much deep into Pakistan,or flanking and attacking the wings or such??why always jumping for nukes??you guys think that demonstrating nuke will make Indian Force to retreat..but its a wrong approach.you can see Cuban Missile Crisis,you can see other "Shadowy Engagements" between 2 nuclear powers or between a single nuclear and non nuclear powers all over the globe.they always considered the nuclear option and found it "Impractical".Pakistan is just a late entry of this game.world has seen so many engagements,yet,not a single nuke is used in post 1945.and believe me,we've seen Israel fighting a Defensive War.and they're far more reckless than Pakistan ever going to be.

 

[ucmicu]

As much as you focus on singing your national anthem -- you are actually quite shockingly learned: for an indian! and then one should respect the learned!!

I really do not know how to avoid your patriotism -- for that i must achieve if i must reach those signs of intelligent life in india -- but then one should try.

1) Superior air force -- I fire an sd-10 from the ground, what types of indian aircrafts promise to evade something coming at them at mach 4 17g? This is not 1914. Be rational, or your 'patriotism' is only going to cause -- sorry almost used the word nuclear -- a hell lot of mess.

2) I really do not see what was so difficult in what i said! Why do you think we have been developing gwadar?! Both in '65 and kargil we took territory from you yet we had to return it 'cause you blockaded us. gwadar to gulf is not blockadable. our supply lines stand, IN will not bail you out. You talk of burden, I am talking range. Also, we do not actually have to do it -- we can smuggle any much oil from iran, claiming it came from saudia

3) India has been aware of the attraction in Ankhoor. It has been building backup roads behind the main line so as to continue to reach out to kashmir even if pushed back -- yet that is the entire idea: have the indians carry everything on mule back to kashmir!

4) As I said, you ARE smart. Considering how much mumbai is adding to your GDP/Government revenue and how vulnerable it is -- it would definitely be quite attractive a target! Yet again, as you know my english is kinda weak, and I failed to make my point:
a) Pakistani forces are far nearer the indo-pak border. Pak plays white
b) Pak forces are far more per km2 -- tanks AND soldiers AND aircrafts. until and unless indians have had the time to 'cold start' across a few thousand kms: India will actually prove the WEAKER foe!
c) Indian forces are far more -- yet not enough to push back Pakis when the latter are dug up. historically they have always re-acquired their lost territory by cutting Pak supply lines: and this time that isn't happening. This time Pak takes territory, of its choosing, and keeps it.

5) You are underestimating Pak / Muslim appetite for war/nuclear war: don't. I strongly recommend you not even plan a non-nuclear war. Try conducting a survey in each country, you'll see what I mean.

6) For some reason each of us is assuming Pak and China will not synchronize their efforts...