Coexistence with India

[Contrarian]

Assessment is dynamic, If the pakistani position improves in the "definition" as set by GoI, India would/ should come to the table, but in their assessment, If they see the gap increasing in India's favor. What you mentioned is phase shift, where certain events would trigger the phase shift where Pakistan's position is consolidated way faster than expected, it would be a very good time to negotiate at that moment according to the current "plan" as it seems.

These are my interpretations of the what's going on, and I can be completely wrong and naive. The most unfortunate part of the entire debacle is dishonesty on the part of both the nations. In my opinion this candyfloss trade and cricket non-sense can go in the dumpster and we need to take on the core issue head on. Although my solution will be frowned upon by "patriots" on both sides, kashmir needs to be divided by line of actual position, there needs to be 7-12 road connection on both parts, and kashmiri residents need to be given special status from both countries in education, government jobs etc for fast tracking their pending development. Freedom of kashmir as an independent state is no longer a viable option. India being the bigger country needs to play a more positive approach and bulk of the expense for resettlement and aid of kashmiris on both sides; but to take such steps, pakistan too needs to crush anti-militants brutally, for India to take such steps.

I agree with your assessment.

GoI has indeed chosen the game of waiting, trying to -in vsdoc's words - put distance between itself and Pakistan.

And it seems to be favouring us mightily. An assessment I read is that once about 3 decades of advantage over Pakistan is reached, Pakistan will no longer be in any position to demand anything in negotiations or defend against an Indian attack save for nuclear weapons.

As of now, we have reached 1.3 decades. It seems in all likelihood that Pakistan will be unable to substantially alter its economy before 2020.

So we would in anycase have around 2 decades of advantage at the very least, what remains to be seen is how much further can GoI extend this - by any means.

 

[Rafi]

I hope india fucks right off

 

[Contrarian]

Will, can India help Pakistan to crush the militants? I would invite your consideration to the recent events at the LoC.

There is a massive divide in Indian schools of thought regarding Pakistan.

One is that India should help out Pakistan with any and all means, because if Pakistan fails against religious extremism and talibs - we are undoubtedly next. And it wont be pretty for us after that.

The other is that India should stoke the fires in Pakistan. Let it fall, we will be able to manage the splinter states. A smaller Pakistan would be far easier to manage, like how today Pakistan is far easier than if Bangladesh were to be part of Pakistan.

The mid way is dont interfere directly - let nature run its course or atleast try to keep things just a little boiling - but ensure Pakistan is in no existential threat, meanwhile keep putting as much distance between India and Pakistan in terms of economy, technology and military till they start acknowledging disadvantage at the negotiating table.

There are pro's and con's of each option however -

The GoI seems to have chosen the mid way. Manmohan himself is an advocate of option 1. Remains to be seen what the new GoI after elections decides.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I hope india fucks right off

Whom should India eff next then? India seems to be content effing the same guys.......that is good enough.

 

[Rank]

One thing I have noticed off late is that many people here on PDF (Pakistanis) simply outright dismiss these kinds of articles as rubbish/ propaganda/ Indian boot licking etc. but a quick glance over common newspapers of Pakistan, you will be amazed to see there are still many common Pakistanis who are fed up with this Mullah- extremism and anti-India Pakistani ideology. Though a small minority, I do think its a good start for Pakistanis for soul searching.

are you interested to watch how INDIAN MEDIA and INDIAN SCHOOL/COLLEGE system make children/teen agers ANTI PAKISTAN ????

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Sandy I think you have it backwards - Consider: What if the 2 decades of back burner find Pakistan in a very different domestic and international situation? OK, how might that happen? Pakistan may be successful in defeating the Wahabi or injuring them sufficiently that they are not the kind of problem that they are now, and Pakistanis in particular the private sector actually ge s to understand how to trade with China, because even though exports to China have gone up more than 200 percent in the last 5 years, it's still no where it's potential.



On the International level, terrorism associate with religion and politics is very unpredictable, some societies which actually export these ideas while remaining immune, may find turn about is fair game, their international sponsors who at present are blackmailed into supporting them because of the compulsion of energy security as it is understood now, may have cause to reappraise their positions.

Under these circumstances, what are today advantages or a favorable position may not be so and decades are a long time, especially with strong lobbies in both countries that are invested in poor relations.

I sincerely hope that happens; back-burner or no back-burner.
But as of now the trends are not encouraging. But lets put forward a hypothesis; the continuing slide into 'darkness' and religious anarchy that is happening in Pakistan may actually so disturb the average Pakistani "Abdul and Hassan on the streets" that they do not just turn their backs on it all but actively work to prevent that continuing down-slide. If that happens; that will be the beginning of the 'reversal of the tide'. The state alone cannot cope with the nature and magnitude of the problem.
When common people make common cause, then only it will happen. That was the experience in India during the 1970s Naxalbari movement and the Khalistani insurgency.

Of course as you say above "On the International level, terrorism associate with religion and politics is very unpredictable"
Therein lies both the threat and the salve.
Finally the common folks; the "Abdul and Hassan on the streets" have to come on board; not even so much in the active sense but semi-active sense will the things that you speak and hope for: happen.

 

[muse]

Finally the common folks; the "Abdul and Hassan on the streets" have to come on board; not even so much in the active sense but semi-active sense will the things that you speak and hope for: happen.

Mr. Aiyer says this has already happened, witness:

The Pakistanis know that their armed forces are capable of conquering only one country — their own. Moreover, the Pakistan establishment, and in particular its armed forces and intelligence agencies, have become the biggest victim of the very same forces of terror they thought they could unleash on others. Also, they are the worst victims of being the frontline state in someone else's war. The very Americans they have embraced are returning the embrace with the ruthless killing of Pakistani citizens virtually every day in drone attacks. So weakened has the armed forces' hold on the nation's polity become that, for the first time ever, a civilian government is edging towards completing a full five-year term in office; the army chief still does not know if he is going to get an extension; the ISI chief the army chief wanted to retain has been replaced; not even the stand-off between the judiciary and the executive has enabled the army to intervene. What the armed forces are doing is licking their wounds over the brazen violation of state sovereignty in Obama's kidnap and murder operation in Abbottabad. What they have had to endure is un-repulsed terror attacks on ISI headquarters in Lahore; on the army GHQ in Rawalpindi; on the Mehran Naval Base on the outskirts of Karachi. What the Pakistan army has had to endure is many thousands more of their soldiers being massacred by their own home-grown terrorists than in all the Indo-Pak wars and near-wars put together.

The Pakistanis are not stupid. They know the sins of their past are visiting them. They know that a nation-state created in the name of Islam and dedicated to the Nizam-e-Mustafa has resulted in 80 times more Shias being killed in an instant in Quetta than in all the incidents that led up to the ghastly incident in the Mandhar sector. They know that while an Indian Muslim can go to his Jum'aa prayers in the confidence that his wife's biryani will be waiting for him when he returns home, no Pakistani Muslim can be certain that he will return alive from the mosque, nor when his wife goes shopping that she will for sure return from the bazaar in the burqa she wore but wrapped head-to-toe in a funeral chaddar.

 

[Tridibans]

are you interested to watch how INDIAN MEDIA and INDIAN SCHOOL/COLLEGE system make children/teen agers ANTI PAKISTAN ????

And what exactly has that got to do with the topic at hand concerning Pakistan?

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Mr. Aiyer says this has already happened, witness:

The Pakistanis know that their armed forces are capable of conquering only one country — their own. Moreover, the Pakistan establishment, and in particular its armed forces and intelligence agencies, have become the biggest victim of the very same forces of terror they thought they could unleash on others. Also, they are the worst victims of being the frontline state in someone else's war. The very Americans they have embraced are returning the embrace with the ruthless killing of Pakistani citizens virtually every day in drone attacks. So weakened has the armed forces' hold on the nation's polity become that, for the first time ever, a civilian government is edging towards completing a full five-year term in office; the army chief still does not know if he is going to get an extension; the ISI chief the army chief wanted to retain has been replaced; not even the stand-off between the judiciary and the executive has enabled the army to intervene. What the armed forces are doing is licking their wounds over the brazen violation of state sovereignty in Obama's kidnap and murder operation in Abbottabad. What they have had to endure is un-repulsed terror attacks on ISI headquarters in Lahore; on the army GHQ in Rawalpindi; on the Mehran Naval Base on the outskirts of Karachi. What the Pakistan army has had to endure is many thousands more of their soldiers being massacred by their own home-grown terrorists than in all the Indo-Pak wars and near-wars put together.

The Pakistanis are not stupid. They know the sins of their past are visiting them. They know that a nation-state created in the name of Islam and dedicated to the Nizam-e-Mustafa has resulted in 80 times more Shias being killed in an instant in Quetta than in all the incidents that led up to the ghastly incident in the Mandhar sector. They know that while an Indian Muslim can go to his Jum'aa prayers in the confidence that his wife's biryani will be waiting for him when he returns home, no Pakistani Muslim can be certain that he will return alive from the mosque, nor when his wife goes shopping that she will for sure return from the bazaar in the burqa she wore but wrapped head-to-toe in a funeral chaddar.

Yes Mani has certainly talked about it. Just as my own experiences in Karachi in the 90s made me understand how little "Abdul and Hassan" on the streets thought of me Mr. Indian as a threat to their existence.
They did'nt; rather they understood that like them all I could really be bothered about was my bread and butter and hopefully some jam that I could put on my family's dinner table.
Pakistan now seems to be (unfortunately) rather more religiously polarised than that time. Now the religion color gets painted over on just about anything and everything. Really I'd go so far as to say that "Abdul and Hassan" actually may even see Mr. Indian as a lesser threat (among the myriad problems in their lives) than that time that I speak of, till........ some guy raises a religious "parcham". Then "Abdul and Hassan" get in to a huge fix.
What should they think, what should they do? That is the nature of the beast now.

 

[GURU DUTT]

well three things this article will always be limited and Pakistan & there elite will never shed there hostility with india no matter what

1. Most of them are from the khandans of those easterwhile nawabs and feudals who backed the idea of two nation theori cause they could never take there easterwhile servents children to treat them like ordinarry citizens

2. The sole identity of Pakistan Army Is based on Hate India (specially after Sakkot E Dhaka )

3. the seeds those were sown so care fully over the last 7 decades are bearing there fruits now and as per the current trends and past expearences things are not going to change same as the Feudalism (which was the main reason for birth of Two nation theori) in Pakistan

so there can be no peaceful coexistence between India Pakistan cause there own issues and pre judices wont let that dream to ever happen

 

[Armstrong]

@GURU DUTT : Ainaa ghusaaa ?

Waisee bhiii hameinn aap keiii daru peeneiii seeh problem haii bakiii subbb set hai aur koi hostility nahin !

 

[GURU DUTT]

@GURU DUTT : Ainaa ghusaaa ?

Waisee bhiii hameinn aap keiii daru peeneiii seeh problem haii bakiii subbb set hai aur koi hostility nahin !

he he he sirji problem to hame bhee nahee hai per kya karen dil hi kuch aisa hai

 

[muse]

Now the religion color gets painted over on just about anything and everything. Really I'd go so far as to say that "Abdul and Hassan" actually may even see Mr. Indian as a lesser threat (among the myriad problems in their lives) than that time that I speak of, till........ some guy raises a religious "parcham". Then "Abdul and Hassan" get in to a huge fix.
What should they think, what should they do? That is the nature of the beast now.

I think, like in some other societies, Abdul and Hassan, have so little power to effect their lives, they do get giddy thinking that they can have power over the lives of others -- See Abdul and Hassan are going to be Muslims, nothing is going to change that - what can change is the type of religiosity they identify with - and it seems to me, that the more dignified the life Abdul and Hassan can lead, the less "practical" and the more experiential, their religious sensibility.

How do we help Abdul and Hassan get there? Not really all our responsibility, but there are some hopeful signs, even at the level of the state, though reprehensible and other expressions of disapproval, have the effect of shaking Abdul and Hassan out of their stupor - however, the most powerful thing Mr. Aiyer has had to say, has been the example of the Indian Muslim to his Masjid and the contrast with the Pakistani Muslim's experience - more Pakistanis should be allowed to wrap their heads around that observation, so to speak.

The absolute worst thing, from my point of view, that can happen with regard to the civil war in Pakistan, is for it to end, soon - that would be tragic.

 

[Pakistanisage]

It tells exactly how it is in Pakistan. A population fed on islam and imagined glories.

How was it IMAGINED if we ruled you rear end for over a 1000 years.

You are in a serious STATE OF DENIAL, GENIUS.

 

[vsdoc]

Yaar, who are Abdul and Hasan?