Coexistence with India

[MilSpec]

^^^


Not really, @muse. Mani Shankar Aiyar is capable of thinking even "out of the Congress Box".

I highly doubt it!

 

[muse]

Lets see how it plays - I'm sure there must be at least one Real Muslim to dispute the vile lies of Mr. Ayer in their true light and set the record straight

 

[Capt.Popeye]

I highly doubt it!

No @sandy_3126. He really is. Of course he is a Nehru-Gandhi acolyte (read chamcha) because that is how he got propelled into politics; but he is not a real Congressi.

n.b. What is a real Congressi?

Lets see how it plays - I'm sure there must be at least one Real Muslim to dispute the vile lies of Mr. Ayer in their true light and set the record straight

@muse. That is only part of what Mani has written about. The other part (which he holds dearly) is his agenda of "uninterrupted and uninterruptible dialog" with Pakistan. True to form, he has stuck by that here.
Love him or hate him; Mani has a way with words and he is very consistent on this issue.

 

[MilSpec]

No @sandy_3126. He really is. Of course he is a Nehru-Gandhi acolyte (read chamcha) because that is how he got propelled into politics; but he is not a real Congressi.

n.b. What is a real Congressi?

He is a smart individual, who has recognized the peace incentive and is pushing the same at the detrimental costs in his own party, thus becoming the go to guy for all television channels as the messiah of peace. He will eventually emerge as a big guy in the party without any public or political support based on his credentials that he is building through this niche.

India's take on kashmir right now seems to be playing the "wait and watch" game. If pakistan internal situation keep deteriorating, and India's growth remains consistent, the negotiations will be extremely skewed in say another two-three decades.
Mani shankar ayer is the propnent of the same school of thought, of not disturbing the applecart, and let kashmir stew in the back burner for another 10-20 years. If something changes the dynamics where the political establishment in pakistan gets a grip and starts developing, reducing the gap between India and pakistan, then it makes sense in engaging them at that moment to get a kashmir solution, or else India will lose any advantage it holds.

Always negotiate from the point of advantage, if the opponent's position is weakening let it weakin till it's ripe to get a favorable solution, If something changes and opposition starts gaining strength, then engage at that moment, to avoid discussing with a stronger opponent.

Pakistanis who understand this, would like to engage now, musharraf did it back in the early 2000's, Nawaz tried it 90's, pakistan had a much better position back then. Now it's for us to watch where pakistan is heading, if it deteriorates, then wait till the gap is larger.

 

[muse]

The Pakistanis are not stupid. They know the sins of their past are visiting them. They know that a nation-state created in the name of Islam and dedicated to the Nizam-e-Mustafa has resulted in 80 times more Shias being killed in an instant in Quetta than in all the incidents that led up to the ghastly incident in the Mandhar sector. They know that while an Indian Muslim can go to his Jum'aa prayers in the confidence that his wife's biryani will be waiting for him when he returns home, no Pakistani Muslim can be certain that he will return alive from the mosque, nor when his wife goes shopping that she will for sure return from the bazaar in the burqa she wore but wrapped head-to-toe in a funeral chaddar.

Oh my, Oh no! Biryani (dum ki?)

 

[muse]

He is a smart individual, who has recognized the peace incentive and is pushing the same at the detrimental costs in his own party, thus becoming the go to guy for all television channels as the messiah of peace. He will eventually emerge as a big guy in the party without any public or political support based on his credentials that he is building through this niche.

India's take on kashmir right now seems to be playing the "wait and watch" game. If pakistan internal situation keep deteriorating, and India's growth remains consistent, the negotiations will be extremely skewed in say another two-three decades.
Mani shankar ayer is the propnent of the same school of thought, of not disturbing the applecart, and let kashmir stew in the back burner for another 10-20 years.

Pakistanis who understand this, would like to engage now, musharraf did it back in the early 2000's, Nawaz tried it 90's, pakistan had a much better position back then. Now it's for us to watch where pakistan is heading, if it deteriorates, then wait till the gap is larger.

Sandy I think you have it backwards - Consider: What if the 2 decades of back burner find Pakistan in a very different domestic and international situation? OK, how might that happen? Pakistan may be successful in defeating the Wahabi or injuring them sufficiently that they are not the kind of problem that they are now, and Pakistanis in particular the private sector actually ge s to understand how to trade with China, because even though exports to China have gone up more than 200 percent in the last 5 years, it's still no where it's potential.

On the International level, terrorism associate with religion and politics is very unpredictable, some societies which actually export these ideas while remaining immune, may find turn about is fair game, their international sponsors who at present are blackmailed into supporting them because of the compulsion of energy security as it is understood now, may have cause to reappraise their positions.

Under these circumstances, what are today advantages or a favorable position may not be so and decades are a long time, especially with strong lobbies in both countries that are invested in poor relations.

 

[MilSpec]

Sandy I think you have it backwards - Consider: What if the 2 decades of back burner find Pakistan in a very different domestic and international situation? OK, how might that happen? Pakistan may be successful in defeating the Wahabi or injuring them sufficiently that they are not the kind of problem that they are now, and Pakistanis in particular the private sector actually ge s to understand how to trade with China, because even though exports to China have gone up more than 200 percent in the last 5 years, it's still no where it's potential.

On the International level, terrorism associate with religion and politics is very unpredictable, some societies which actually export these ideas while remaining immune, may find turn about is fair game, their international sponsors who at present are blackmailed into supporting them because of the compulsion of energy security as it is understood now, may have cause to reappraise their positions.

Under these circumstances, what are today advantages or a favorable position may not be so and decades are a long time, especially with strong lobbies in both countries that are invested in poor relations.

Assessment is dynamic, If the pakistani position improves in the "definition" as set by GoI, India would/ should come to the table, but in their assessment, If they see the gap increasing in India's favor, then they would let kasmir simmer till they reach a tipping point. What you mentioned is phase shift, where certain events would trigger the phase shift where Pakistan's position is consolidated way faster than expected, it would be a very good time to negotiate at that moment according to the current "plan" as it seems.

These are my interpretations of the what's going on, and I can be completely wrong and naive. The most unfortunate part of the entire debacle is dishonesty on the part of both the nations. In my opinion this candyfloss trade and cricket non-sense can go in the dumpster and we need to take on the core issue head on. Although my solution will be frowned upon by "patriots" on both sides, kashmir needs to be divided by line of actual position, there needs to be 7-12 road connection on both parts, and kashmiri residents need to be given special status from both countries in education, government jobs etc for fast tracking their pending development. Freedom of kashmir as an independent state is no longer a viable option. India being the bigger country needs to play a more positive approach and bulk of the expense for resettlement and aid of kashmiris on both sides; but to take such steps, pakistan too needs to crush anti-militants brutally, for India to take such steps.

 

[SHAMK9]

Some of it is very true, Pakistan is a country obsessed with religion.

 

[Cherokee]

Some of it is very true, Pakistan is a country obsessed with religion.

As the economy goes up and terrorism down , things will change .

How can desis live wthout Sharab and shabab

 

[muse]

Assessment is dynamic, If the pakistani position improves in the "definition" as set by GoI, India would/ should come to the table, but in their assessment, If they see the gap increasing in India's favor. What you mentioned is phase shift, where certain events would trigger the phase shift where Pakistan's position is consolidated way faster than expected, it would be a very good time to negotiate at that moment according to the current "plan" as it seems.

These are my interpretations of the what's going on, and I can be completely wrong and naive. The most unfortunate part of the entire debacle is dishonesty on the part of both the nations. In my opinion this candyfloss trade and cricket non-sense can go in the dumpster and we need to take on the core issue head on. Although my solution will be frowned upon by "patriots" on both sides, kashmir needs to be divided by line of actual position, there needs to be 7-12 road connection on both parts, and kashmiri residents need to be given special status from both countries in education, government jobs etc for fast tracking their pending development. Freedom of kashmir as an independent state is no longer a viable option. India being the bigger country needs to play a more positive approach and bulk of the expense for resettlement and aid of kashmiris on both sides; but to take such steps, pakistan too needs to crush anti-militants brutally, for India to take such steps.

My compliments - that was fun to read, thank you - I'm with you about the fluff, but the fluff is also needed - Some may not think so, but India and Pakistan possess the ability to shape the thinking and sentiments of their populations, and there are other stake holders of significant power (4th estate) - they need the creation of atmosphere.

Will, can India help Pakistan to crush the militants? I would invite your consideration to the recent events at the LoC.

 

[Armstrong]

Ain't that something !

The usual exaggerations, omissions & outright lies - But, hey, they sell, do they not ?

 

[muse]

Ain't that something !

The usual exaggerations, omissions & outright lies - But, hey, they sell, do they not ?

What are you referring to?

 

[Armstrong]

What are you referring to?

Not your post, the article.

 

[muse]

which the article?

 

[Armstrong]

which the article?

The article on the first place; the narcissism, the self-righteousness, the landlords, the Mullah-Army alliance, the indoctrination, the religion & politics bit ! Do some of them have truth in them - Of course; but are they nearly as skewed as the author asserts them to be - No !