Cleric terms Women’s Protection Bill contrary to Islamic Sharia

[Hell hound]

Not really, there is having these rights and there is getting into thick skulls that there are laws which stand by these rights! When British law was law of the land somehow in translating "MEN" it became for men only....and somehow women were not included in the equation...


TRUE... The only bonus point of this bill is ....it is now written that woman also are human who have camps and centers to turn to when people (control freak mother in laws, husbands, jealous sister in law, rapist brother in law) throw her out on the streets...

Now by law she cant be thrown out, is that your evil law?


Yet you have never raised a voice in the "educated" "1st world" "forward" west? but have a problem for it being introduced in Pakistan?


Have you read the bill? Show me 1 hazardous piece please dont imagine it out like @SMC here!

yes i have read the bill and i was the one encouraging everyone to read it in last few pages of the thread.i have discussed few points in my post #188 which are cause of my objection

 

[Dubious]

This begs the question if Pakistanis who passed the bill even read it?

I can answer that...No they didnt....There was a video interview of some people from parliament after they passed some tens of bills...not one could recall any one of the bills they agreed to and not one could tell what ANY one of the bill was standing for...SO nope they didnt read it ....Let alone understand it...So I wont be shocked if it isnt implemented!

The bill is only for elitist liberal class represented by Farzana Bari or Marvi Sirmid--and these women are so out of touch with Pakistani reality that it reminds of the French queen who uttered the words "Tell them to eat cakes" when she heard that protests were erupting amongst French farmers who did not have enough bread to feed their children. Anyways, lets move on.

So in a society where women are not even considered human enough to fit the existing laws they dont deserve to be protected?

Because the minute you write down "men" or human...somehow in our society women dont fit that bill

yes i have read the bill and i was the one encouraging everyone to read it in last few pages of the thread.i have discussed few points in my post #188 which are cause of my objection

I will check your post after I read what @AUz wrote

Second major flaw, the bill is full of vague language and legal over-reaches. For example, it says if a man "emotionally abuse" his wife--he shall be punished and can be reported to authorities. What is the definition of emotional abuse? Bill doesn't even mentions it, let alone defining it. How do you prove emotional abuse in court? Should emotional abuses be punished by the state to begin with? What are the legal implications? This is such a pathetically thoughtout bill that I can not even start to explain the absurdities it will create in terms of legalities.

Emotional abuse is a well defined and psychological abuse. I am shocked you would even question it!

2ndly, yes it should be punishable coz it is established only sicko do such abuse! And no it doesnt include teasing!

@SMC for your concerns regarding false info:

Penalty for filing false complaint.– A person, who gives false information about the commission of violence which that person knows or has reason to believe to be false, shall be liable to punishment of imprisonment for a term which may extend to three months or fine which may extend to one hundred thousand rupees but which shall not be less than fifty thousand rupees or both.

 

[SMC]

Not really, there is having these rights and there is getting into thick skulls that there are laws which stand by these rights! When British law was law of the land somehow in translating "MEN" it became for men only....and somehow women were not included in the equation...

I do not accept for a moment that women were not protected by law in Pakistan. The law enforcement may have been non-existent but I do not buy for a moment that there was no such law

TRUE... The only bonus point of this bill is ....it is now written that woman also are human who have camps and centers to turn to when people (control freak mother in laws, husbands, jealous sister in law, rapist brother in law) throw her out on the streets...

Now by law she cant be thrown out, is that your evil law?

Throwing out a man out of his own home based on just a complaint is definitely inhumane.

Yet you have never raised a voice in the "educated" "1st world" "forward" west? but have a problem for it being introduced in Pakistan?

I don't think you know me. I rarely argue about such laws in Pakistan, this thread is just one case. When I do argue about these kinds of laws, it's mostly about the existence of such laws in western states. This is a Pakistani forum so you'll not see me doing that a whole lot here, but on other websites I argue far more furiously against such laws in western countries, because I am subjected to those laws.

@SMC for your concerns regarding false info:

Penalty for filing false complaint.– A person, who gives false information about the commission of violence which that person knows or has reason to believe to be false, shall be liable to punishment of imprisonment for a term which may extend to three months or fine which may extend to one hundred thousand rupees but which shall not be less than fifty thousand rupees or both.

This is definitely refreshing to see. In western countries false allegations are rarely prosecuted or punished.

@Akheilos what you said in a separate thread.

This will not always stand, a man slapping a woman and a woman slapping a man rarely does similar harm! A woman shoving a man and a man shoving a woman rarely does similar damage!

There are ways to measure stab wounds and other stuff, and a man's stabbing is always different from a woman stabbing...Our physiology is VERY different so is our morphology and anatomy so alot of things differ , why should laws be the same?

Women have access to household objects and knives when committing domestic violence. They will not necessarily just use their hands to commit violence. Having access to these objects evens out the field quite significantly.

 

[untitled]

Instead of importing solutions we are now importing problems from the west.

BTW these mullahs have indeed become a joke. They tried to solve everything by the tool of Jihadi force. If instead they had tried to solve the problems of society by reason and logic they would have been not only respected in Pakistan but probably around the world. Nowadays any words that come from a mullah are ridiculed on social media by the people at large just because they are said by a Mullah.

 

[Dubious]

As for protecting the men's rights:

On receipt of the complaint, the Court shall issue a notice to the defendant calling upon him to show cause within seven days of the receipt of notice as to why any order under this Act may not be made and if the defendant fails to file a reply within the specified time, the Court, subject to service of the notice on the defendant, shall assume that the defendant has no plausible defense and proceed to pass any order under this Act

If a person slaps his wife, he wouldn't only get registered under domestic violence act (which is ok since he did commit domestic violence), but he will also lose his personal firearms he bought for protection, he will be made to wear GPS tracker, AND he will be made to wear a sign/bangle so that he is recognized in public as someone who had a conflict with his wife.

Does it state about slap or is that shear assumption?

the gps is for the following:
Protection order ...I doubt this will be issued for a slap!

and Penalty for breach of orders: which is a penalty on the accused part for breaching orders!

Liberal elites, who lived and get educated abroad, having no idea of problems of local Pakistanis, believe that just copy-pasting Western laws will improve situation in Pakistan. If anything, it will make things worse.

I dont doubt that it can be copied and pasted...

(d) wear ankle or wrist bracelet GPS tracker to track the movement of the
defendant twenty four hours, seven days a week

(f) surrender any weapon or firearm which the defendant lawfully possesses or prohibit the defendant from purchasing a firearm or obtaining license of a firearm;

IF a protection order is passed it literally means the guy might be a psycho not coz he just slapped his wife!

(c) the defendant shall not sell or transfer the house to any person other
than the aggrieved person;

This is in case of domestic violence, may in addition to any order under section 7, pass a residence order directing that
(c) the defendant shall not sell or transfer the house to any person other....

NOT A MUST

@AUz
You were talking about definitions apparently they still stick to British laws: A word or expression not defined in this Act shall have the same meaning as assigned to it in the Code or the Pakistan Penal Code, 1860 (XLV of 1860).

For all the remaining arguing read this point too:
The Government shall establish a data-base and software for timely service delivery and monitoring and evaluation mechanism in the prescribed manner with a view to achieving the objectives of the Act and, where necessary, shall introduce necessary reforms for the purpose.
Reading that bit made sure this bill wont be functional till next 2-3 generations! We still dont have a proper NADRA thing...I mean their own bloody officials sell passports and CNIC so to have another databse is not really foreseeable in our lifetime

I do not accept for a moment that women were not protected by law in Pakistan. The law enforcement may have been non-existent but I do not buy for a moment that there was no such law

There is / was law...implementation sucks big time in Pakistan!

Throwing out a man out of his own home based on just a complaint is definitely inhumane.

Not based on a complaint...Based on investigation...and not throwing him out

THE BILL did manage to state

The Court shall proceed with the complaint under this Act and the Code and shall fix the first date of hearing which shall not be beyond seven days from the date of the receipt of the complaint by the Court. (3) On receipt of the complaint, the Court shall issue a notice to the defendant calling upon him to show cause within seven days of the receipt of notice as to why any order under this Act may not be made and if the defendant fails to file a reply within the specified time, the Court, subject to service of the notice on the defendant, shall assume that the defendant has no plausible defense and proceed to pass any order under this Act. (4) The Court shall finally decide the complaint within ninety days from the date of the receipt of the complaint, as nearly as possible, under Chapter XXII of the Code relating to the summary trials.

The last bit literally means never....Coz that code so far hasnt really been raised from its death bed!

I don't think you know me. I rarely argue about such laws in Pakistan, this thread is just one case. When I do argue about these kinds of laws, it's mostly about the existence of such laws in western states. This is a Pakistani forum so you'll not see me doing that a whole lot here, but on other websites I argue far more furiously against such laws in western countries, because I am subjected to those laws.

fair enough!

Women have access to household objects and knives when committing domestic violence. They will not necessarily just use their hands to commit violence. Having access to these objects evens out the field quite significantly.

Well then they fall under murder...and I dont see a bill separating genders for murderers! THANK GOD!

i am strongly condemn those men and judges how are abusing those law but that doesn't mean in its response i will support another law which too can be abused in the future.

All laws can be abused...all you need is a good lawyer ...I read about some laws of some countries esp since I travel and I have a healthy group of student friends studying European law...So I get my share of knowledge

Women are not blamed for being victims of such crimes. If they claim a guy did this to her, the guy will get beaten to smithreens.

OMG ...have you not read it has been in news soo many times I have no idea how to even defend a society that does that let alone denies it happening!

Instead of importing solutions we are now importing problems from the west.

BTW these mullahs have indeed become a joke. They tried to solve everything by the tool of Jihadi force. If instead they had tried to solve the problems of society by reason and logic they would have been not only respected in Pakistan but probably around the world. Nowadays any words that come from a mullah are ridiculed on social media by the people at large just because they are said by a Mullah.

If logic existed our parliament would be full of capable human beings not elites who have no idea what a normal man goes through!

Women have access to household objects and knives when committing domestic violence.

and men live in the toilet? they too live in the same house with the same access...

 

[Hell hound]

IF a protection order is passed it literally means the guy might be a psycho not coz he just slapped his wife!

This is in case of domestic violence, may in addition to any order under section 7, pass a residence order directing that
(c) the defendant shall not sell or transfer the house to any person other....

NOT A MUST

knowing our legal systems these clauses surely will be abused and thats what i am afraid of.

 

[SMC]

There is / was law...implementation sucks big time in Pakistan!

Which is precisely my point. Most of the protection introduced under this law already existed before, the problem came down to implementation. Which is why I disagree with the bit about women not being treated as human or that protection was lacking in law. This law won't add much if most of it already exists yet implementation is lacking.

Not based on a complaint...Based on investigation...and not throwing him out

THE BILL did manage to state

The Court shall proceed with the complaint under this Act and the Code and shall fix the first date of hearing which shall not be beyond seven days from the date of the receipt of the complaint by the Court. (3) On receipt of the complaint, the Court shall issue a notice to the defendant calling upon him to show cause within seven days of the receipt of notice as to why any order under this Act may not be made and if the defendant fails to file a reply within the specified time, the Court, subject to service of the notice on the defendant, shall assume that the defendant has no plausible defense and proceed to pass any order under this Act. (4) The Court shall finally decide the complaint within ninety days from the date of the receipt of the complaint, as nearly as possible, under Chapter XXII of the Code relating to the summary trials.

The last bit literally means never....Coz that code so far hasnt really been raised from its death bed!

So basically it's saying the man has to prove why the case should not be made, and if he doesn't do so he shall be punished? The English isn't exactly clear but that's what I was able to comprehend. Guilty until proven innocent. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Dubious]

knowing our legal systems these clauses surely will be abused and thats what i am afraid of.

No law is abuse proof....It is just that the justice system needs to be just so that such creatures dont try to swim through the loophole...

The previously existing laws had the word men or human or person somehow it was translated for MEN and women were never considered right worthy...

How many people fight over property of a sister or wife, getting a divorce from an abusive husband, getting a restraining order from a crazy stalker, getting justice for acid ruining women's face, let alone getting employment with that face...these issues do exist...previous laws have not been able to help women we can only hope these would ...Laws are useless if they are not updated...

Do you know our civil laws are from British Raj era....that is eons ago! Very few amendments have been made!

 

[untitled]

Well then they fall under murder...and I dont see a bill separating genders for murderers! THANK GOD!

Unfortunately if you follow news from around the world then you would have heard of cases of women getting away with murder just because they complained their husbands were mentally torturing them.

 

[Dubious]

Which is precisely my point. Most of the protection introduced under this law already existed before, the problem came down to implementation. Which is why I disagree with the bit about women not being treated as human or that protection was lacking in law. This law won't add much if most of it already exists yet implementation is lacking.

The only boost it will give if implemented, is that women reporting centers and counselling centers would be available for cases of abuse and neglect from society!

It will enable women to report without fear of being rejected by society ...these things were not in previous laws! Heck previous laws didnt have psychological abuse nor domestic abuse (the word itself either wasnt in the previous set of laws of laws or just not used in practice)

So basically it's saying the man has to prove why the case should not be made, and if he doesn't do so he shall be punished? The English isn't exactly clear but that's what I was able to comprehend. Guilty until proven innocent. Correct me if I am wrong.

it is the same as when in the West the spouse is the 1st person to be questioned and has to give an alibi/ excuse why they are not to be scrutinized

 

[SMC]

Well then they fall under murder...and I dont see a bill separating genders for murderers! THANK GOD!

My point is there should be no difference for any sort of crime with respect to the gender of the victim or the perpetrator and how much punishment is given.

All laws can be abused...all you need is a good lawyer ...I read about some laws of some countries esp since I travel and I have a healthy group of student friends studying European law...So I get my share of knowledge

In this case abuse is made so easy that anyone can do it, you don't even need a lawyer.

OMG ...have you not read it has been in news soo many times I have no idea how to even defend a society that does that let alone denies it happening!

I think you're cherry-picking my post. I said that you're exaggerating. Are you telling me that in most cases women are blamed? I don't think that claim can be scientifically proven because there's no research to prove it. There are likely anecdotes, but that is it.

and men live in the toilet? they too live in the same house with the same access...

That is not my point. What I am saying is because of household objects available to women that can be potentially used as weapons, the difference in physical strength becomes largely irrelevant.

 

[Dubious]

Unfortunately if you follow news from around the world then there have been cases of women getting away with murder just because she complained her husband was mentally torturing her.

I have heard worse...A woman was excused coz she said she was hormonal! It was actually being considered to be put in law that women be excused even as far as murder goes...

These kind of stupidity happens when you have things like a **** star (read bimbo) in your parliament (Italy's parliament does)

 

[untitled]

No law is abuse proof....It is just that the justice system needs to be just so that such creatures dont try to swim through the loophole...

Do you support the blasphemy laws in Pakistan too?

 

[Dubious]

My point is there should be no difference for any sort of crime with respect to the gender of the victim or the perpetrator and how much punishment is given.

My point is there should be!

If I am to shove a man, he wont go far but if a man shoves me in anger I might fly across a room! If the law (as an example) says xyz punishment for a shove, why should I be punished equally?

If a woman is raped, she undergoes physical abuse, lost of trust, psychological trauma followed by rejection of society followed by the chances of getting pregnant (esp if in villages or the poor) ....there is less to no such chances for a man getting raped by a woman ...

So why should the punishment be the same?

If a man shoots (considering he has a gun would have a licence) and a woman shoots and misses (using husbands gun) why should both be charged the same?
How many men have been locked out of their homes in the middle of the night by a jealous mother in law? out in the dark for rapist to feed off?
How many men have been abused for not bringing enough jahayz? Wait men dont bring dowry! Silly me!
How many men have got acid thrown over them?

How many women have undergone psychological trauma while undergoing postpartum depression? Esp if she has a baby girl instead of a boy? 1stly, the men dont get pregnant however, there have been cases where men blames a woman for not providing the "Y" Chromosome which he was supposed to provide to the baby - Please dont deny it doesnt happen sadly it does!

A man doesnt have to carry a baby in him and then get abused that the baby didnt have a "Y" chromosome!

Yea so if there are different ways to abuse women which WONT happen or RARELY happen to men then there should be different laws too!

 

[Hell hound]

No law is abuse proof....It is just that the justice system needs to be just so that such creatures dont try to swim through the loophole...

The previously existing laws had the word men or human or person somehow it was translated for MEN and women were never considered right worthy...

How many people fight over property of a sister or wife, getting a divorce from an abusive husband, getting a restraining order from a crazy stalker, getting justice for acid ruining women's face, let alone getting employment with that face...these issues do exist...previous laws have not been able to help women we can only hope these would ...Laws are useless if they are not updated...

Do you know our civil laws are from British Raj era....that is eons ago! Very few amendments have been made!

i am all in for updating those laws but not on the expense of one gender.
this bill in its current form is not the solution as it is sexist in nature.we do need some amendments in it to remove as much exploiting loophole as we can and make it just for both genders.