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Churches burnt in India

I urge you to change your perspective.
Try to analyze this as a clash of civilizations. Think of the year 700 AD. Islam is a new religion, and the entire region from Central Asia to S/E Asia is under hindu/buddhist culture.
When Islamic conquerers entered the region, they wiped out the indegenous traditions of Afghanistan and Central Asia, and most of Pakistan.
Then, they created this new Islamic state, which was totally at odds with the earlier one.

Now, for a variety of reasons, none of which were the magnamity of the foreigners, they were unable to convert the whole of the Indian population. Perhaps partly because of the sheer number of people, and partly because of the fragmented nature of Hindu society.

So Hinduism in North India withdrew into a shell, devoid of political power and patronage, while Islamic culture flourished.

Obviously, the Islamic rulers brought with them some new ideas, in the field of architecture for example.

But the indegenous people could do nothing to benefit from this, because in order to join this new culture, they would have to completely give up their own.

On top of that, Islamic conquerers are well known for their bloodthristy nature. It is not without reason that Islam spread like wildfire to most of Asia, within just 300 years!!

Look, I am not saying that only the Muslims were cruel. The Spanish conquests of south america could definitely compete with the Muslims. But one must note an important similarity between the spanish and the muslims....the monotheist nature of their religion. The Spanish conquests too were of a religious nature.

Thank you.

I am a man of peace.

I have seen enough of bloodshed and I realise it is those who have from the rear and who have not actually done a damn are the ones who kill each other over stupid reasons.

Applicable to the brave ones on this forum, irrespective of nationality.
 
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I kind of agree with this.

I am of course enraged at what those invaders did to my country, people and civilization but I don't think the answer is to pay back in the same coin now after so long.

Peace is a better alternative. But peace with stength, so that the same does not happen again.

And anyway different civilizations peak at different periods of time. This is in the nature of things. We have had ancient Indian, Chinese, Babelonian, Egyptian, Persian, Greco-Roman, Islamic and now western civilizations which were the best or most developed around at different times.

All of them may have felt that their supremacy is God given, but I don't see God differentiate between his own creation. That would be a very narrow-minded God.

And this will keep on happening in future too. We are already seeing Eastern civilizations gaining ground.

And those who were particularly vicious went down viciously or are going down viciously. May be they deserve some of that.
 
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I kind of agree with this.

I am of course enraged at what those invaders did to my country, people and civilization but I don't think the answer is to pay back in the same coin now after so long.

Peace is a better alternative. But peace with stength, so that the same does not happen again.

And anyway different civilizations peak at different periods of time. This is in the nature of things. We have had ancient Indian, Chinese, Babelonian, Egyptian, Persian, Greco-Roman, Islamic and now western civilizations which were the best or most developed around at different times.

All of them may have felt that their supremacy is God given, but I don't see God differentiate between his own creation. That would be a very narrow-minded God.

And this will keep on happening in future too. We are already seeing Eastern civilizations gaining ground.

And those who were particularly vicious went down viciously or are going down viciously. May be they deserve some of that.

I have replied in the Hindutva thread, (history section)
 
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I don't know what can be done to integrate the Muslims while maintaining the essence of what the country stands for.

India, Thailand, China, Russia, Phillipines, Europe, UK (may be many more) everywhere there are issues. Many Muslims may simplistically say that Muslims are being persecuted everywhere but I guess the real reasons are closer home.

Integration of minority Muslims (in a sufficiently large number) has not succeeded anywhere I guess. USA is not so bad I guess, but much of the population is getting increasingly hostile. Reasons are open to interpretaion.

May be some member can enlighten here.
 
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Most certainly, the answer is not to pay back in the same coin. The perpetrators are long gone, and we cannot take revenge on history.

On the other hand, we must understand how this has changed the nature of our society.

The only answer is to reconcile hindus and muslims, and try to achieve greater integration among the population.

Take the example of Kerala. There are millions of muslims there, but the region has not seen communal riots because the muslims of kerala consider themselves a part of the local society. They don't demand special treatment, and the rest of society doesn't consider them as outsiders.

Sadly, apart from this tiny island of prosperity, and a few more, most of the islamic world is being manipualted by the extremist version of it.
However, because of the monotheistic nature of islam, it is very difficult to fragment islam.
Whether Islam becomes more intolerant or more moderate, the change will affect all muslims, not just some of them.
In such a situation, one must tread carefully, and try to minimize the effect of this ideology on Indian muslims.
If this is not done, the 100 million muslims of india will become a huge liability.

One of the theories of the RSS, to counteract the increasing influence of the Taliban/Al Qaida ideology is to change the loyalty of Indian muslims from mecca to somewhere in India. However, it is not possible to do so without changing the quran (unfeasible).

Another way might be to adopt the Singaporean/Indonesian model and try to convince the Indian muslims to interpret the religion for themselves. This idea that the Saudis are the ones to decide what Islam means, should be removed from the minds of these people.
It is for too long that the Arabs have considered it their sole right to interpret the book. A new movement is needed to interpret Islam to suit the local society, not the arabic one.

The people of Pakistan must also realize that it is not upto the Saudis to tell them how to practice their religion.


The same is true for you Stealth Assasin ........

Islam evolved from Arab ....... The understanding of Islam is given by Arabs and everyone must follow the Scholars of the Land that holds the house of Allah........ We need no other interpretation of Islam ......
 
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Islam evolved from Arab ....... The understanding of Islam is given by Arabs and everyone must follow the Scholars of the Land that holds the house of Allah........ We need no other interpretation of Islam ......

Proud, it will be interesting to see if other fellow Pakistani and other Muslim members agree with you on this.
 
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I don't know what can be done to integrate the Muslims while maintaining the essence of what the country stands for.

India, Thailand, China, Russia, Phillipines, Europe, UK (may be many more) everywhere there are issues. Many Muslims may simplistically say that Muslims are being persecuted everywhere but I guess the real reasons are closer home.

Integration of minority Muslims (in a sufficiently large number) has not succeeded anywhere I guess. USA is not so bad I guess, but much of the population is getting increasingly hostile. Reasons are open to interpretaion.

May be some member can enlighten here.

What do you mean by "Integration".
The same way non muslims "intergrate" in UAE or saudi arabia is the same way muslims "intergrate" in non muslim countries.
 
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The Mughal Empire was a time of glory, but only for the Mughals and their allies.

You must understand that the Mughals didn't give a damn about the common man, because they were foreigners at heart.

Only a man of the soil will care about the welfare of his people. The Mughals did nothing to uplift or educate the common person. They built not one institution in their entire reign.

Yes, we must be proud of the grand mughal buildings that were left behind, because they were mostly built by Indians. We must also be proud of the culture that was created. the dance, the music, the drama, the language.

But we must never be proud of Mughal rule. It was a period of decline for the vast majority of the country.

It was also a period of great massacre. For civilization to flourish, it needs a critical mass of talented people and leaders. When a foreigner invades an alien land, the first thing he does is wipe out the brightest/most influential/richest people of the conquered territory and make the local population a headless chicken. Only then can he successfully maintain his rule.
The Entire Indo-Gangetic plain, Bihar, Orissa, Central India was devastated because of this, and even 200 years after it all ended, it is still just beginning to recover.

Salim, think of Afghanistan. Afghanistan was one of the first nations to suffer the Islamic onslaught. Gandhara was a flourishing centre of trade, commerce, craftsmanship and culture.
Look what Islamic rule has turned it into. It is a living hell.

On the other hand, look at South India, where Islamic conquerers could never reach. Most of India's talent today, comes from South India. What are the reasons for that? Are North Indians inferior to South Indians? of course not....a look at history will show that North India had some great civilizations in the past. The reason is that traditional society in the north was destroyed in order to create the new Mughal society.

That must be the worst version of indian history i have read.
You fail to mention the hindu's wiping out the buddhist or the mass killings and brutalities done to the lower castes by the hindu leaders.
Only you and a few right wing hindus see the mughal rule as not good.
 
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More Hindutva origin nonsense

I urge you to change your perspective.
Try to analyze this as a clash of civilizations. Think of the year 700 AD. Islam is a new religion, and the entire region from Central Asia to S/E Asia is under hindu/buddhist culture.

Central Asia was under Buddhist rule, nothing to do with Hinduism. East Asia was predominatly Buddhist ruled. Hinduism in the present form never existed there.

When Islamic conquerers entered the region, they wiped out the indegenous traditions of Afghanistan and Central Asia, and most of Pakistan.

Well that's bulllshyt. The Islamic (Arab) conquerors just ruled the area of Pakistan for a short while in 800 AD. The Pakistanis converted mainly from the 13th century onwards. The Arabs had very little to do with Pakistan becoming Muslim.

Then, they created this new Islamic state, which was totally at odds with the earlier one.

No, they did not.

But the indegenous people could do nothing to benefit from this, because in order to join this new culture, they would have to completely give up their own.

Oh really? The Mughal Courts and armies were filled with Hindu Generals and advisors. Tell me again how Hindus had to "completely give up their own culture" to join with the Islamic leadership? It seems such fascism against India's Muslims by Hindu nationalists is worse than any under Islamic leaders of the subcontinent.

On top of that, Islamic conquerers are well known for their bloodthristy nature. It is not without reason that Islam spread like wildfire to most of Asia, within just 300 years!!

It took 600 years to spread into the subcontinent..that too via peaceful means.

Look, I am not saying that only the Muslims were cruel.

Oh no, you would never do a thing like that would you?!

The Spanish conquests of south america could definitely compete with the Muslims. But one must note an important similarity between the spanish and the muslims....the monotheist nature of their religion. The Spanish conquests too were of a religious nature.

Spanish had an Inquisition. The Muslims did not.
 
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What do you mean by "Integration".
The same way non muslims "intergrate" in UAE or saudi arabia is the same way muslims "intergrate" in non muslim countries.

Integration for me is very simple.

All communities respect each other (or at least peacefully tolerate each other), do not demand any special favors or laws, follow the law of the land, has loyalty first and foremost to the country of stay and respect and follow the constitution.

I don't know how integration in UAE and SA works. They don't have any non-Arab citizens, I guess. Others can just work there but can't have any citizenship rights.

A Pakistani can be a citizen of the much maligned USA, UK and Europe but never of these citadaels of Islam that you talk about. Recently there was news that the Saudi governemnt just took a decision to deport all Pakistani doctors who had been working there serving the country for 20 years!
 
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Islam evolved from Arab ....... The understanding of Islam is given by Arabs and everyone must follow the Scholars of the Land that holds the house of Allah........ We need no other interpretation of Islam ......

I disagree completely - Islam and interpreting Islam is not the "Jagir" of the Arabs. The "Scholars of the land that holds the house of Allah" have created a repressive society - lacking in creativity, free thought and respect for any but those who follow the diktats of the said "scholars".

That is not Islam - it is tyranny and hate in the guise of religion, and we are reaping the harvest of its demented offspring, the Taliban.
 
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