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Churches burnt in India

Stealth Assasin ......

I seems that you suffer a misguidance syndrome fed up in your brain by misleading people of your own ISM...

I'm sorry, but my conclusion is based on historical fact.

The history of Islam .......... As per not the muslim history writers but from European Historians is without the blood shed of Women and Children ...


Very opposite from the other ISMs at that time .... If Islam wanted to eradicate all who existed at that time then the world would not have any ISMs but only Islamism ... Its the will of GOD ... its his requirement not to do Massacre after Conquering some land. If muslims would have done just opposite to that then we would not have seen Hindu Culture or other cultures existing today...

Try looking at Iran and Afghanistan. Are there any traces of Zoroastranism and Buddhism there today? Why do you think they disappeared.

More importantly, why do you think all their temples, forts, stupas, statues have disappeared or been destroyed?

I get what you are saying, that Hinduism survived because islam was "merciful" towards it.

Rest assured, that is not the case. Hinduism survived because it was innate in Hinduism to survive, not because the Muslim rulers allowed it to.

As far as your claims of masscacre (or lack thereof) are concerned, can you tell me why the cities of Delhi and Vijayanagar were depopulated after they were conquered?


Yes there existed only one State and that was a Islamic State.....

An Islamic Empire

Then there is no need to study the history before the Islamic State. After all, they were pagans weren't they? How could they amount to anything?
 
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You know its hardest to make believe the people who have no Mind what so ever..

HINDUS...

But rest assured the most conversion in the entire history of Islam has come from the same people who are the lover of nature and make Gods of every thing and worship them .... AKA .... HINDUS

Your facts are known only to you ... If you differ against my post then open a thread for Eradication of ISMs by Islam and then i will give you history lessons.
 
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You know its hardest to make believe the people who have no Mind what so ever..

HINDUS...

Yes, I know what you will say, I know, Islam is inherently superior therfore it was bound to replace the lowly polytheisms etc. etc.

How can a lowly polytheist understand? rite?

Don't give me that explanation please.

Ultimately, its your belief that "the perfect religion will lead to the perfect society", which will, and already is, causing your downfall.

But rest assured the most conversion in the entire history of Islam has come from the same people who are the lover of nature and make Gods of every thing and worship them .... AKA .... HINDUS

Your facts are known only to you ... If you differ against my post then open a thread for Eradication of ISMs by Islam and then i will give you history lessons.

What are "Isms"?? Is it some way of bunching all non-abrahmic faiths together in some form of ignominious heap?

There is one thing you must understand, Mr. Proud, that just because the whole world believes something, does not make it true.
 
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Yes, I know what you will say, I know, Islam is inherently superior therfore it was bound to replace the lowly polytheisms etc. etc.

How can a lowly polytheist understand? rite?

Don't give me that explanation please.

Ultimately, its your belief that "the perfect religion will lead to the perfect society", which will, and already is, causing your downfall.



What are "Isms"?? Is it some way of bunching all non-abrahmic faiths together in some form of ignominious heap?

There is one thing you must understand, Mr. Proud, that just because the whole world believes something, does not make it true.

For words like these one can only say may GOD give you a small piece of mind to understand the trueness of ALLAH and his Book, the Quran.

I will say no more off topic now on this thread!
:disagree:
 
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Does that mean that there is no identity as a nation or of being proud of being citizens of a particular nation?

It is of course admirable to claim that the difference is in the character and deed of Moslems. However, does that mean that all Moslems are people of character and only do excellently good deeds?.No man or woman born in this world can claim to be perfect.

Who is saying that all Muslims are good or men of charachter thats is why Islam says that only one can be good charachtered if his/her deeds are good and that is the criteria in Islam.

Perfection would means that these same men are Gods, because Humans are not perfect being and they have foibles and religions claim that it is the God who they believe in is the one who has perfection.
In my opinion, to believe that one is perfect smacks of ego and a sense of false superiority.


Islam does not teach about prefection as being Muslims Islam tells us that there is nothing like perfection but only God.
if there was anything called perfection there would have been no concept of Punishment and reward.
Islam teaches Human (not only Muslims) to explore the Universe, learn whatever God has created for you explore it and learn to diffrentiate between good and bad.
truth and lie.



The example is so evident in all religions and even in Islam. Why should there be sects if the path of a religion is the same? Why this division if the religious book is the same and the God revered is the same?
To be frank, how and why was the Church divided? Why is Islam having ablut 70 sects ( as one post stated)? Why should there be Shias and Sunnis if Allah and the words of the Koran is the same?


It is said that there would be 72 sects in Islam mostly self-claimed while only one the rightous will survive on the day of the judgment.
Now its any body's guess which one would be hence no one among these sects can say he/she is right while the other one is false.

secondly even with 72 sects ( God knows when it reaches to 72 as currently its only two) the main concept is one i.e One God, and Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah.

Rest of the differences are either about the Sahabas or about the power which i dont think so is any religiouse diffrence as there is no system of Hierarchy in Islam.

Indeed, why should there be different nations if Islam is one as is claimed?
Was there one Islamic state even when there was the Caliphate?
It is commendable to have the desire to have one nation under Islam, but then one should not forget ground reality.

There is no concept of One Nation under Islam.

Sir you are again confusing the concept of Ummah.
Islamic Ummah means oneness in faith and not a One single state under Islam.
hence there were different states even under Khilafat with different governing heads.

When Islam was introduced its teachings were offered to all be they Arab, non-Arab, Bedouins etc.
 
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For words like these one can only say may GOD give you a small piece of mind to understand the trueness of ALLAH and his Book, the Quran.

I will say no more off topic now on this thread!
:disagree:

Good for you that you are not going to say anything more.

You are entitled to your belief, and so are others entitled to their beliefs and religion being a subject that people believe passionately, that there is always the tendency to make everything the Gospel Truth!

Let all religions live in harmony!
 
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Who is saying that all Muslims are good or men of charachter thats is why Islam says that only one can be good charachtered if his/her deeds are good and that is the criteria in Islam.

That view is held by all religions and so your statement that it differentiates Islam is not valid.

I am yet to learn of any religion that states that one should be characterless and bad!


Islam does not teach about prefection as being Muslims Islam tells us that there is nothing like perfection but only God.
if there was anything called perfection there would have been no concept of Punishment and reward.
Islam teaches Human (not only Muslims) to explore the Universe, learn whatever God has created for you explore it and learn to diffrentiate between good and bad.
truth and lie.

Precisely.

All religions say the same.


It is said that there would be 72 sects in Islam mostly self-claimed while only one the rightous will survive on the day of the judgment.
Now its any body's guess which one would be hence no one among these sects can say he/she is right while the other one is false.

The sect would not agree they are self claimed!

Each one will claim that they are the righteous one and since none has seen God, none will know who is the righteous one! It is all a question of belief

No one can categorically state who is wrong, since no one has dialogued or seen God.

secondly even with 72 sects ( God knows when it reaches to 72 as currently its only two) the main concept is one i.e One God, and Muhammad (PBUH) is the last prophet of Allah.

And yet differences divide both and they feel that they alone is right and the other is wrong!

Rest of the differences are either about the Sahabas or about the power which i dont think so is any religiouse diffrence as there is no system of Hierarchy in Islam.

So the Sunni and Shias do their way to God in the same manner?

If so, why the difference that they zealously guard?


There is no concept of One Nation under Islam.


Sir you are again confusing the concept of Ummah.
Islamic Ummah means oneness in faith and not a One single state under Islam.
hence there were different states even under Khilafat with different governing heads.

When Islam was introduced its teachings were offered to all be they Arab, non-Arab, Bedouins etc.

Then what is ummah all about?

What is Ummah Wahida?

I am aware that there are many interpretation.

One wonders what was Proud to be a Pakistani interpretation when he wrote:

Yes there existed only one State and that was a Islamic State.....

An Islamic Empire

Since he projects to be the sole authority on Islam, I will take it that ummah means there is one state and it was or is the Islamic State.

His statement aroused my doubt.
 
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If you are not satisfied with my references, too bad. Keep believing that Brahmagupta was born in Multan, and remain happy.

You've produced one reference to say he was born in Rajasthan and that too from a source that says only "probably".

I have produced 2 sources at least that say he was born in Multan. Who has the more evidence?
 
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Now that we are back to discussing history, I guess, I would first like to congratulate RoadRunner that at least he feels that the ancient pre-Islamic pre-Invasion history was something worthwhile and the invading Arabian and Afghan hordes did not bring civilization to this country as they claim. Indeed quite the opposite, they destroyed a great flourishing civilization.

A good start indeed and a welcome change.... ;)

I hope many more such myths will be broken in due course.

I am really getting a bit confused here. What is the basis of the claim that the lands comprising Pakistan were a different civilization? Is the Hindu/Buddhist/Sanskrit/Vedic civilization being claimed for Pakistan here!!!! Then why is it not in evidence in Pakistan? If most Pakistanis are of foreign invading race descent as they claim, then the people in the modern India are the only ones who can claim that history and civilization. Pl. resolve this internal contradiction first. The Syeds and Sheikhs in Pakistan don't own any of my glorious history. For me the invaders were barbarians and plunderers of the worst order. :angry:

What do these claimants of this history feel about these invaders who destroyed this civilization in Pakistan? If you welcome them, you are no part of the history. If you condemn them, pl. do so openly first here and let's take it from there.

Why do you see so many peolple here refer to "Indian Hindu" as a term of abuse. I have rarely seen any Indian even using the term "Pakistani Muslim" here. You can't have it both ways, claiming that history and rejecting it at the same time. Isn't it?

Any person born after 1947 in Pakistan was a Pakistani. Before that, well hmmmmm.

This is muddled. Refer to the history section. I think it's been renamed. There's lots of posts answering this there.

Why refer to people as invaders and not migrators anyway? The Rig Vedic civilization, Gandhara and some others were all Pakistani civilizations. Need I quote Witzel again?
 
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I think the argument on the context in which the word "India" is used (referring to "ancient India", hence possible Pakistan as well, or "modern India") underscores the point I have been making that the terminology used to describe Indo-Pak history has resulted in a "usurpation" of Pakistani history, since India is widely understood to refer to "modern India".
 
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Well, this is what the Organizer says about the Violence:

Special Report

Evangelists tie up with Maoists to create mayhem in Kandhamal
By Debasis Tripathy in Bhubaneswar

The attack over the revered Swamiji opens the Pandora’s box of missionary activities in Kandhamal district. On the eve of Christmas day, the Christians made a decorative tent for the worship of Jesus Christ. It was forcefully built over a Hindu puja mandap, over which Hindus used to worship Goddess Durga. This misdeed of the missionaries was strongly protested by the local Hindus.

The aftermath of the attack on Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati is quite shocking. In the trouble-torn area of Kandhamal, the Hindus are worst affected as they are being victimised by the evangelist Christian hooligans. Their houses are burnt down, cattle are snatched away, women are outraged, followed by destruction of a good number of Hindu temples in different areas, even in the presence of the police. About four hundred Hindus have taken shelter inside the forests in order to save their lives from Christian attackers.

On December 24, when Swamiji was going to attend a religious satsang, he was attacked in the mid-way by a group of missionary goons. Despite the severe attack, his life was luckily saved. It is no secret that due to Swamiji’s relentless efforts since last 45 years, the evangelical activities of missionaries have suffered a lot. Swamiji is very much popular among the Vanvasi people, and has a very big influence over the natives particularly over the Kondh community. For his pro-Hindu activities, he was victimised by the missionary wrath in the years 1967, 1969, 1976, 1978, 1982, 1985 and 1995. And the recent attack was the simple repetition of those past years. The violence in Kandhamal district is not solely due to attack over Swamiji. It was simple a co-incidence which fueled the burning fire.

The Real Cause
The attack over the revered Swamiji opens the Pandora’s box of missionary activities in Kandhamal district. On the eve of Christmas day, the Christians made a decorative tent for the worship of Jesus Christ. It was forcefully built over a Hindu puja mandap, over which Hindus used to worship Goddess Durga. This misdeed of the missionaries was strongly protested by the local Hindus. It was finally turned into a clash between the two groups and the situation further aggravated when Pana Christians attacked the Kandhs.

According to the VHP sources, one such person promoting missionary activities in the area is R.K. Nayak, who after retirement from IAS has been elected to Rajya Sabha from Sonia Gandhi's Congress party. According to Swami Laxmanananda, Shri Nayak is a converted Christian but by producing false caste certificate as a tribal, he got himself selected for IAS. One can see a conspiracy in the fact that Swamiji was attacked in the ancestral village of R.K. Nayak. But Shri Nayak has cleverly clarified that he is not involved in the incident and he does not know who Swami Laxmanananda is! This statement of Shri Nayak is meaningless as even tiny tots know the revered Swamiji in the Kandhamal district, then how does this man of 65 does not know him? Among other such persons who are spewing venom are one John Nayak, a former DGP of state police and one Ijak Behera, an IAS (retd.). Both allegedly support the missionary activities, as they are converted Christians, revealed Shri Subhas Chauhan, national co-convener of Bajrang Dal.

“Demand for reservation to converted Pana Christians is the root cause of all problems. It creates turmoil among the Hindu Vanvasis. It is a matter of irony that even after having been converted to Christianity, the Panas enjoy all shorts of facilities meant for the Vanvasis,” said Sangh’s Prant Pracharak of Orissa Shri Ajit Prashad Mohapatra while talking to Organiser. “When a Vanvasi is converted from Hinduism to Christianity, he ceases his Hindu identity and as such he should not get any such facilities. In Kandhamal district, the government has no correct information regarding the real number of persons actually converted. The converted Christians also knowingly do not change their Hindu surnames even after the conversion. So they easily get all the facilities meant for Hindu Vanvasis. It is no secret that a number of Pana Christians have managed to get government jobs on the basis of false identification of being Hindu Vanvasis. It creates a havoc among Kandha Vanvasis,” Shri Ajit Mohapatra added with grave concern.

Destruction of Hindu religious places is another cause
The Pana Christians allegedly destroyed the shrines of Hindu Vanvasis, said Dr. Laxmikant Das of Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram, who has been working in Kandhamal for last one decade. He says that the idols of village Goddess, popularly known as Dharani Penu, are forcefully thrown away by the Christian hooligans. According to him , about two hundred such incidents have occurred since last four years.

Hindus are more affected
In the recent planned violence by the missionaries, the Vanvasis are the worst affected in the area. About 500 Hindu houses have been burnt down, five temples have been destroyed, two Hindus have been inhumanly killed and about 400 Hindu families have left home to save their lives. One Shiva temple of Brahmanigaon, one Hanuman temple at Jaleshpatta, one temple of Goddess Dharani Penu at Tumudibandh, one Shiva temple at Baliguda and one Hanuman temple at Daringbadi have been badly destroyed by the missionaries. Similarly two Hindus were brutally killed. One Khgeswar Mallik, aged about 30 years, of village Barakhamba is murdered by the Christian attackers by pelting stones. Another Hindu of Brahmanigaon, namely Sethi Taili is killed by Christian goons. Villagers of Gadapur and Kitingia have taken refuge into the forest in order to save their lives. The latest information reveals that no relief has reached to them from the state government. These distressed and helpless Hindus have no other way left, but to sleep under the open sky. On December 30, 70 Hindu families wrote a letter to the Chief Minister in which they appealed to him not to send them back to their villages as their lives are not secured in the hands of the evangelists. They have demanded proper security for their lives and faith.

Maoists Involved
Involvement of Maoists in the Kandhamal violence is becoming increasingly clear. They were summoned by the missionaries of this district to attack the Hindus. The nature of attack and arms and ammunition being used for that purpose make their suspected involvement more clear. If Superintendent of Police Shri Amitendra Nath Sinha, IPS, is to be believed, the fact is substantiated. Shri Sinha, who luckily escaped an attack at Brahmanigaon, told Organiser about what he experienced regarding the involvement of Maoists. “On December 28, I was at Brahmanigaon accompanied by 40 constables of OSAP and SOG. We saw that the attackers suddenly marched towards us. They set the Hindu houses afire. We warned them and fired tear gas shells. But they were undeterred. Suddenly, a member of them came forward, took position and started firing bullet on the police like a trained Maoist. That bullet passed by my right side and hurt a constable. Then the attackers fired 100 rounds of bullets and used automatic rifles for that. It astonished me because on the basis of my observation in police, I can say that it was not the work of mere rioters. However, our bullets killed one of them. Later we came to know that the deceased gunner was an outsider; he wore a white scarf on his head. But we were further surprised when the attacker’s dead body was taken away by his associates. The manner in which that was taken, is nowhere seen except in Maoist circle. I cannot deny the participation of Maoists in the attack,” he revealed. Shri Sinha’s statement is corroborated by the incident occurred at Brahmnigaon on December 31, in which 12 SLR guns, eight AK-47 rifles, 15 landmines and five bombs were seized by the police. How did these sophisticated weapons reach there which are only available to either police or to Naxals? It is an admitted fact that not less than 366 Christian agencies are working in Kandhamal district. They receive huge funds from abroad for their conversion activities, which are being spent through different NGOs. It may be recalled here that a news-item was published in Organiser (2-12-2007, page-17), titled as “NGO’s funds go to Maoists”. It was reported that the police administration of Western Orissa warned the government to ban the NGOs working in the tribal areas because, they alleged, the NGO funds directly go to the Maoists. If this is to be believed, the alliance between Maoists and Christians and participation of Maoists in the Kandhamal violence do not deserve an iota of confusion. Again, on December 31, the Maoists and Christians in two different press releases have demanded the arrest of Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati and ban on VHP and Bajrang Dal. Through this statement, the Maoists have already clarified that they are on Christians' side.

VHP meets the CM
A high-level delegation of VHP headed by its state president, Shri Bipin Bihari Rath presented a memorandum to the Chief Minister Shri Naveen Patnaik. Shri Rath and Justice (Retd.) M. Pappanna told Organiser: “We expressed our concern over the plight of Hindus in Kandhamal and urged the government to take immediate action against the culprits who attacked our revered Swamiji. We also demanded the increase of security to Swamiji, a scrutiny into the church funds and implementation of the Orissa Freedom of Religion Act, 1967, followed by an amendment.”

Package for Kandhamal
On December 31, the state government has announced a package for the traumatised Kandhamal district. A high-level meeting was held at the state secretariat presided by the Chief Minister Shri Naveen Patnaik. The government has declared the following package:

* Pana Christians will not get the status of Vanvasi.
* Caste certificates will be verified.
* Rs. one lakh compensation for every death.
* Rs. 10 thousand compensation for each broken house.
* New houses for every burnt house.
 
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These Maoists are infiltrating everywhere.

These radical Communists do not realise that Communism is a dead horse and there is no use betting on such a horse!
 
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Stealth Assasin ......

I seems that you suffer a misguidance syndrome fed up in your brain by misleading people of your own ISM...

The history of Islam .......... As per not the muslim history writers but from European Historians is without the blood shed of Women and Children ...

Very opposite from the other ISMs at that time .... If Islam wanted to eradicate all who existed at that time then the world would not have any ISMs but only Islamism ... Its the will of GOD ... its his requirement not to do Massacre after Conquering some land. If muslims would have done just opposite to that then we would not have seen Hindu Culture or other cultures existing today... Never muslims after Conquering any place pushed the people to become muslim or else they would be killed like other nations of that time. They let them live their lifes with their own believes... Go in the history books and read ........

All the people who embrase Islam, do it with their will and that is the will of GOD.

Speak with Facts..

And Yes there existed only one State and that was a Islamic State.....

An Islamic Empire

Just some names that will prove that this is not correct.

Timure Lame
Nadir Shah
Mahmud Gazhani
Mohammed Gauri
Bahamanis
Akbar murdering 30000 Rajput civilians
Aurangjeb indulging in mass conversions and murdering the Sixth Sikh Guru when he opposed this. This of course after murdering his own brother and presenting his head to his own father whom he had imprisioned.

Last but not the least the Bangladeshi claim itself of 3 million murders and countless rapes by Pakistani troops.

The intention here is not to ridicule anyone but to say that facts are different from commonly held beliefs.
 
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