Chinese Submarines - are they noisy?

[maxpayne]

Pakistan Navy has been the most incompetent of the all three branches. Corruption going right up to the naval chief. So you can never know :-D

I think u have some personal grudge on PN. Otherwise I don't see any corruption here

 

[gambit]

gambit, you basically just speculated that the Chinese sub was waiting deep down in the ocean, and submerged itself when the U.S. carried sailed on top.

A submarine is what called an 'ambush predator'.

Ambush predator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

...that capture or trap prey by stealth or by strategy (typically not conscious strategy), rather than by speed or by strength.

Even the cheetah, pretty much the fastest land animal, prefers stalking and ambush in hunting than to being a pure pursuit predator. So there is no speculation here on what that Chinese sub was doing. The Chinese sub did not submerged at the arrival of the American carrier. She was already under the surface.

But how did the Chinese know the U.S. carrier was going to go there? Suppose they knew the location, how did they figure out the time? How did the Chinese know when the carrier group was on top of them and it was time to show up?

How did the Chinese sub, or more specifically the PLAN, know where the American carrier was going to be ? Actually, the whole world know whenever an American carrier set sail...

"Big E" Comes Home

Every time a ship, never mind a capital vessel like an aircraft carrier, is ready to deploy (sail), it is always at least local news. Families and friends are always present to see the sailors and the ship off. Then when a ship is arriving home, families, friends, and the local news are waiting to welcome the ship and sailors home. Of course, foreign intelligence agencies are there as well, plus with today's news travelling as fast as the Internet can carry news, foreign intelligence agencies will definitely know. Then as the fleet is underway, anyone under surface listening will know from far that it is the Americans. Any competent sub crew can do this and plenty of past competent sub crews have done this. So if this Chinese sub knew where to 'lie and wait' for the Kitty Hawk, there is nothing spectacular about this feat -- as you probably hoped it was.

They must have the capability to remotely detect the carrier presence...

Yes, it is called the 'sonar'.

Sonar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not know about the Chinese subs, but I think it is safe assume that they have sonars as well. Not sure if you know of the device but it is very tough to see thru steel.

...without themselves being found first. No?

Nothing spectacular about this as well. If a sub is in 'lie and wait' mode, and if everyone on board is careful not to make loud noises, like dropping a pair of chopsticks or playing pipa, the sub will not be detected.

As you stated, it is big deal to do a stunt like this. If failed, many lives could be lost, not to mention secrets revealed.

Assuming that this tale is true, it is stupid for the PLAN and a big deal for US. It is stupid because the PLAN just gave away a national secret -- that at least one of its subs can sneak up on the Americans. It is a big deal for US because now we know of at least one vulnerability. Again -- this is assuming the tale is true.

Unless the Chinese commander who gave the order is a total idiot,...

If he is NOT an idiot, he would not do this. If the commanding officer back in mainland China is NOT an idiot, that officer would not give an order to do this. It does not matter what your sub's and crew's capabilities, if you can sneak up on a potential adversary, you do not reveal yourself this way. This is so common sense that it is amazing to me that anyone would believe this tale.

In training, a sniper would tell his protege how did the sniper got the crosshairs on the trainee, how he tracked the trainee over terrain, and how he finally surprised the trainee. Is the American carrier China's trainee ? If yes, then we heartily thanks China for the lesson.

...he had to have a very high degree of confidence in his sub's capability.

Fine...Assume that the Chinese sub is that awesome. Now ask YOURSELF: Why would YOU give away this awesome secret for nothing ? Is embarrassing US worth that much ? Did it actually kept US away ?

Again...Assuming this tale is true, here is the reality of how we would respond to this tale: We would return and return even more often.

We would provoke any/all PLAN subs in the area. This is peace time between US and China, no ? So the worst that can happen is that we would get embarrassed some more, but we would learn and learn so fast it would make your head spin the same rpm as the props on that sub. You think we are afraid of being embarrassed in peace time ? I hope you believe so. Face is more important to you than it is to US and face will be your defeat in a real war because unlike you, we are not afraid to be self critical, even to the public.

Which leads us to a more logical explanation: the Chinese sub has the capability and it did dodge detection fair and square. And, the U.S. capability is not as high and foolproof as one believed. Yes, such an explanation is hard to accept. But unfortunately for you this seems to be a very logical one. You can keep that arrogance and laugh it off. Like you implied, we all can believe whatever we want to believe. Cheers.

No, it is not logical. Not in the context of military experience. A sub's capabilities ranks way up there as to when the President take a shit or have sex or what is on his dinner menu. Ask yourself: Why not reveal a sub's absolute depth or top speed ?

You talk about my arrogance ? If you want to see arrogance, look in the mirror. Just like your fellow Chinese, most likely you have never served in the military. If you had, you would know the value of keeping secret certain technical details. People here know that I have never crossed the INFOSEC line in spite of the technical details of my explanations. They performed their own research based upon information I gave and if they do not believe me, I do not care, but the smart people on this forum know I have NEVER intentionally misled anyone even though many times I declined to go further. If someone asked once for more details and I declined, no one pressed because they understood the necessity of keeping military secrets. But because you have no military experience, you are making assumptions of/from this tale based on emotions, not critical thinking.

Put yourself in the Army's place. Would YOU tell the enemy that you have a couple of snipers in his rear echelon ? OF COURSE NOT. Would you tell the enemy you have A quantity of artillery, B quantity of tanks, or C quantity of troops ? OF COURSE NOT. In fact, there is no need for you to have any military experience to know that revealing such information is outright stupid. You would INSTINCTIVELY know that it is common sense to keep those snipers off the air, out of print, and under cover. Why did I say 'instinctively' ? Self preservation. You want those snipers to be hidden so they can kill the enemy general so that their troops would be demoralized, etc...etc...

Whoever wrote that 'news' article was a rank amateur reporter, if he was one. If he is a real professional, if he has no contacts of his own in the military and/or defense industry, he would have sought out those who do have such contacts, but if he has contacts of his own, they would have told him that story is pure bunk. There would be no shortage of real and retired submariners who would gotten him on the straight. Instead, what we have here is a 'feel good' story. It was to make the author feel good that he can publicly make the US look silly, and it is a feel good story to any gullible Chinese in that it would him feel good about China.

So for this tale, you are, figuratively speaking, willing to risk your nation's secrets just so you can make US look bad, and all your fellow Chinese applauded (thanked) you for such stupidity. By believing that the sub's commander actually surfaced just to embarrass the American admiral, you would tell the enemy general that you have stationed a couple of snipers in his rear echelon.

Here is how the Chinese members on this forum thinks...

To tell the Americans how many Chinese ICBMs there are and where would be stupid, but to the tell the Americans a Chinese sub can sneak up on an aircraft carrier is smart and even hilarious.

If there is a real Chinese military professional reading this exchange, particularly a Chinese submariner, I can only imagine his embarrassment for his fellow countrymen.

Congrats. I hope the PLA is infested with people like you. And if this tale is true, that infestation is already in deep.

Don't listen that American big mouth gambit. The French submarine SUNK a US carrier in a war game. That just demonstrate how vulnerable US detection can be if they face with an enemy sub.

And did the French sub revealed how ? Or maybe the Frenchies were smarter than the Chinese and did not surface and just quietly slunk away into the depths ?

And French sub is a notch below us as far as I"m concern.

Are you speaking from extensive personal experience in submarine and submarine warfare ? Or are you just blowing farts ?

 

[longlong]

A submarine is what called an 'ambush predator'.

Ambush predator - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Even the cheetah, pretty much the fastest land animal, prefers stalking and ambush in hunting than to being a pure pursuit predator. So there is no speculation here on what that Chinese sub was doing. The Chinese sub did not submerged at the arrival of the American carrier. She was already under the surface.


How did the Chinese sub, or more specifically the PLAN, know where the American carrier was going to be ? Actually, the whole world know whenever an American carrier set sail...

"Big E" Comes Home

Every time a ship, never mind a capital vessel like an aircraft carrier, is ready to deploy (sail), it is always at least local news. Families and friends are always present to see the sailors and the ship off. Then when a ship is arriving home, families, friends, and the local news are waiting to welcome the ship and sailors home. Of course, foreign intelligence agencies are there as well, plus with today's news travelling as fast as the Internet can carry news, foreign intelligence agencies will definitely know. Then as the fleet is underway, anyone under surface listening will know from far that it is the Americans. Any competent sub crew can do this and plenty of past competent sub crews have done this. So if this Chinese sub knew where to 'lie and wait' for the Kitty Hawk, there is nothing spectacular about this feat -- as you probably hoped it was.


Yes, it is called the 'sonar'.

Sonar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do not know about the Chinese subs, but I think it is safe assume that they have sonars as well. Not sure if you know of the device but it is very tough to see thru steel.


Nothing spectacular about this as well. If a sub is in 'lie and wait' mode, and if everyone on board is careful not to make loud noises, like dropping a pair of chopsticks or playing pipa, the sub will not be detected.


Assuming that this tale is true, it is stupid for the PLAN and a big deal for US. It is stupid because the PLAN just gave away a national secret -- that at least one of its subs can sneak up on the Americans. It is a big deal for US because now we know of at least one vulnerability. Again -- this is assuming the tale is true.


If he is NOT an idiot, he would not do this. If the commanding officer back in mainland China is NOT an idiot, that officer would not give an order to do this. It does not matter what your sub's and crew's capabilities, if you can sneak up on a potential adversary, you do not reveal yourself this way. This is so common sense that it is amazing to me that anyone would believe this tale.

In training, a sniper would tell his protege how did the sniper got the crosshairs on the trainee, how he tracked the trainee over terrain, and how he finally surprised the trainee. Is the American carrier China's trainee ? If yes, then we heartily thanks China for the lesson.


Fine...Assume that the Chinese sub is that awesome. Now ask YOURSELF: Why would YOU give away this awesome secret for nothing ? Is embarrassing US worth that much ? Did it actually kept US away ?

Again...Assuming this tale is true, here is the reality of how we would respond to this tale: We would return and return even more often.

We would provoke any/all PLAN subs in the area. This is peace time between US and China, no ? So the worst that can happen is that we would get embarrassed some more, but we would learn and learn so fast it would make your head spin the same rpm as the props on that sub. You think we are afraid of being embarrassed in peace time ? I hope you believe so. Face is more important to you than it is to US and face will be your defeat in a real war because unlike you, we are not afraid to be self critical, even to the public.


No, it is not logical. Not in the context of military experience. A sub's capabilities ranks way up there as to when the President take a shit or have sex or what is on his dinner menu. Ask yourself: Why not reveal a sub's absolute depth or top speed ?

You talk about my arrogance ? If you want to see arrogance, look in the mirror. Just like your fellow Chinese, most likely you have never served in the military. If you had, you would know the value of keeping secret certain technical details. People here know that I have never crossed the INFOSEC line in spite of the technical details of my explanations. They performed their own research based upon information I gave and if they do not believe me, I do not care, but the smart people on this forum know I have NEVER intentionally misled anyone even though many times I declined to go further. If someone asked once for more details and I declined, no one pressed because they understood the necessity of keeping military secrets. But because you have no military experience, you are making assumptions of/from this tale based on emotions, not critical thinking.

Put yourself in the Army's place. Would YOU tell the enemy that you have a couple of snipers in his rear echelon ? OF COURSE NOT. Would you tell the enemy you have A quantity of artillery, B quantity of tanks, or C quantity of troops ? OF COURSE NOT. In fact, there is no need for you to have any military experience to know that revealing such information is outright stupid. You would INSTINCTIVELY know that it is common sense to keep those snipers off the air, out of print, and under cover. Why did I say 'instinctively' ? Self preservation. You want those snipers to be hidden so they can kill the enemy general so that their troops would be demoralized, etc...etc...

Whoever wrote that 'news' article was a rank amateur reporter, if he was one. If he is a real professional, if he has no contacts of his own in the military and/or defense industry, he would have sought out those who do have such contacts, but if he has contacts of his own, they would have told him that story is pure bunk. There would be no shortage of real and retired submariners who would gotten him on the straight. Instead, what we have here is a 'feel good' story. It was to make the author feel good that he can publicly make the US look silly, and it is a feel good story to any gullible Chinese in that it would him feel good about China.

So for this tale, you are, figuratively speaking, willing to risk your nation's secrets just so you can make US look bad, and all your fellow Chinese applauded (thanked) you for such stupidity. By believing that the sub's commander actually surfaced just to embarrass the American admiral, you would tell the enemy general that you have stationed a couple of snipers in his rear echelon.

Here is how the Chinese members on this forum thinks...

To tell the Americans how many Chinese ICBMs there are and where would be stupid, but to the tell the Americans a Chinese sub can sneak up on an aircraft carrier is smart and even hilarious.

If there is a real Chinese military professional reading this exchange, particularly a Chinese submariner, I can only imagine his embarrassment for his fellow countrymen.

Congrats. I hope the PLA is infested with people like you. And if this tale is true, that infestation is already in deep.


And did the French sub revealed how ? Or maybe the Frenchies were smarter than the Chinese and did not surface and just quietly slunk away into the depths ?


Are you speaking from extensive personal experience in submarine and submarine warfare ? Or are you just blowing farts ?

Unlucky William Gortney disagree with you.
Northcom: China’s Three Missile Submarines a ‘Concern’

 

[Beast]

CHINANAVY October 7, 2015 Dave Majumdar 14

submarines4 The National Interest4
Over the past two decades, the People’s Republic of China has made great advances in its military capabilities. However, it still lags woefully behind in developing nuclear-powered submarines. The problem for the Chinese is that they lack the necessary quieting and propulsion technologies to build anything remotely comparable to an American or Russian nuclear submarine.

Even the newest Chinese Jin-class ballistic nuclear missile submarines and improved Shang-class nuclear attack submarines are louder than 1970s-era Soviet-built Victor III-class attack submarine or the Delta III-class boomer, according to the U.S. Navy’s Office of Naval Intelligence.

In fact, even China’s forthcoming Type 95 will be louder than the Soviet Union’s Project 971 Shchuka-B-class submarines — better know by its NATO reporting name Akula I. Nor is it likely that the Type 96 nuclear-power ballistic missile submarine will be any better. Chinese diesel submarines are, of course, another matter entirely.

But why are the Chinese lagging behind in nuclear submarines when they seem to be advancing in leaps and bounds in almost every other field? I asked several of the best U.S. naval experts why that’s the case.

Jerry Hendrix, a former Navy captain, director of the Defense Strategies and Assessments Program at the Center for a New American Security had this to say:

It’s a two-part answer. One, noise-quieting technologies is one area where we have been particularly careful not to let out. Still, the Russians have not made any prohibitions against sharing some particular technologies and their export Kilos are pretty quiet so that leads you to the second answer: The Chinese maritime manufacturing techniques are not yet adapted to submarines. Their stuff is still pretty noisy. That’s all I can really go into.

Bryan McGrath is the deputy director of the Hudson Institute’s Center for American Seapower and the managing director of the The FerryBridge Group naval consultancy. He’s also a retired Navy commander. He had this to say:

China’s nuclear submarine program lags other areas of its naval prowess for two primary reasons. The first is that until twenty years ago, designing and building nuclear submarines simply was not a priority. The second reason is related to the first, and that is the fact that designing and building nuclear submarines is an extremely difficult technical undertaking. That they decided to feature nuclear submarines twenty years ago did not instantly result in the requisite skills to effectively and efficiently build them. These will take time, focus and very likely, a stepped-up industrial espionage program to attain.

Bryan Clark is a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments. He was a special assistant to the chief of naval operations and was a Navy submarine officer. He offered his take:

Nuclear submarines have not been a priority for China, since the advantages they offer over diesel or air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarines (greater endurance, speed, and capacity) are not as significant for the missions they have used their submarines to do, such as coastal defense against enemy surface ships and surveillance.



Current Chinese diesel submarines like the Song are not as advanced as their European counterparts, but they are effective in this role and appear to be reliable enough for those missions; China’s Kilo-class submarines are able to carry the very lethal SS-N-27 anti-ship cruise missile. China’s newest AIP submarine, the Yuan, is reported to have modern combat systems and be able to deploy missiles, torpedoes, and mines as well. The recent increase in emphasis on nuclear submarines is coming as China attempts to increase its reach and role in geopolitical affairs.



Today, they are developing an SSBN and a new class of nuclear attack submarine in line with their effort to deploy a “blue-water” navy and desire to have a second strike nuclear capability on par with other great powers.

Andrew Erickson, an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College and frequent TNI contributor, summed it up succinctly: “One word: propulsion!”

“Submarines suitable for comprehensive blue water operations must be nuclear-powered, energy-dense and quiet,” Erickson wrote recently for TNI. “China has struggled in these and related areas. And it can’t simply draw on its burgeoning civilian nuclear industry because the technologies and skill sets are so different.”

China can’t use the lessons learnt on its civilian land-based high-temperature gas-cooled reactors (HTGRs) because those systems lack the energy density for naval applications.

Another smearing "feel good" article by the West. They think that by bringing down China with inaccurate article can make them feel better? The delusion west can continued lived in denial.

 

[The Ultranationalist]

so it is easy to depth charge them. i am intrested in knowing about the acoustic signsture of Indian Arihant class SSBN.

 

[plutonium96]

Navy Alert to Chinese Nuclear Submarine Threat in Indian Ocean - NDTV
Still Chinese sub can pass through indian water undetectd xoxo

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

I'm sure there is a switch on board most submarines that adjusts the quietness level from "normal" mode to "war" mode.

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

Instead of being noisy they shock in , cross indian water and dock at Karachi

 

[Djinn]

Pointless article! Chinese SSBN's can fire missiles from Chinese waters and easily hit enemy states. They don't have to lurk close to enemy waters to be able to strike.