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Chinese Arab people

@Ayush, @OrionHunter, @hinduguy, @KRAIT, Please read the quoted post and let me know what you think?
Well, it takes all kinds to make this world. I wouldn't call them 'nationalists'. There are ultra right wing Hindus, Islamists, Christians etc. These extremists joining the mainstream and integrating with society is not an option as they have their own agendas. The ordinary folk who could be Muslims, Christians, Hindus etc, do not adopt extreme ideologies and therefore are and form part of the mainstream society.
 
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All of the Mongol Khans, except the ones ruling China (the Yuan dynasty) converted to Islam. The Mongol Khans ruling China remained Shamanist or Tibetan Buddhist, they brought many Muslims to China but it bit them back when the Muslims rebelled against them in the Ispah Rebellion.

The Muslim Mongol Khanate closest to China, the Chagatai Khanate also eventually became an enemy of the Yuan and when the Yuan Mongols were driven out it didn't affect relations at all.

A Chagatai prince even sent soldiers and support to Mi Layin and Ding Guodong's Ming loyalists against the invading Manchus.

I am impressed with your knowledge of history. Perhaps you can explain this:

Timur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Attempts to attack the Ming Dynasty

Timur had aligned himself with the remnants of the Yuan dynasty in his attempts to conquer the Ming dynasty.

The fortress at Jiayuguan (pass) was strengthened due to fear of an invasion by Timur, while he led an army towards China.[68]

By 1368 the new Chinese Ming Dynasty had driven the Mongols out of China. The first Ming Emperor Hongwu and his successor Yongle demanded, and received, homage from many Central Asian states as the political heirs to the former House of Kublai. The Ming emperor's treatment of Timur as a vassal did not sit well with the conqueror. In 1394 Hongwu's ambassadors eventually presented Timur with a letter addressing him as a subject. He summarily had the ambassadors Fu An, Guo Ji, and Liu Wei detained. He then had them and their 1,500 guards executed.[69] Neither Hongwu's next ambassador, Chen Dewen (1397) nor the delegation announcing the accession of the Yongle Emperor fared any better.[69]

Timur eventually planned to conquer China. To this end Timur made an alliance with the Mongols of the Northern Yuan Dynasty and prepared all the way to Bukhara. The Mongol leader Enkhe Khan sent his grandson Öljei Temür, also known as Buyanshir Khan after he converted to Islam while he stayed at the court of Timur in Samarkand.[70] In December 1404 Timur started military campaigns against the Ming Dynasty and detained a Ming envoy. But he was attacked by fever and plague when encamped on the farther side of the Sihon (Syr-Daria) and died at Atrar (Otrar) on 17 February 1405[71] before ever reaching the Chinese border.[72] Only after that were the Ming envoys released.[69]

Timur preferred to fight his battles in the spring. However, he died en route during an uncharacteristic winter campaign against the ruling Chinese Ming Dynasty. It was one of the bitterest winters on record. His troops are recorded as having to dig through five feet of ice to reach drinking water.
 
I am impressed with your knowledge of history. Perhaps you can explain this:

Timur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Timur was NOT A CHAGATAID, he was an ENEMY of the Chagatai Khanate. He even waged war against the Chagatai Khan and wanted to conquer it along with the Ming.

EDIT: he beat and forced the Chagatai Khan to accept his authority after seizing their capital.

Btw Timur was not a descendant of Genghis Khan. He married a descendant and took a title that was equivalent to son in law.

He also attacked the Ottomans, sacked Aleppo and massacred thousands of Muslims, and sacked the Delhi Sultanate too. He had more Muslim blood on his hands than that of non Muslims.
 
@Wholegrain

Do you know if the Ding family has any webpage, organization of some short or anything along those lines? Could be interesting.

Also is Arabic a subject/language that can be studied in China? Also have you ever met any Arab students in China? Because there are quite a few.

We also have Chinese students in the Arab world. But I guess you can find Chinese people all over the world.
 
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@kalu_miah

Timurs war against the Muslim eastern Chagatai khanate-

Mathematics in Historical Context - Jeff Suzuki - Google Books

From Movable Type Printing to the World Wide Web: Essays on Civilizations ... - H. K. Chang - Google Books

Historical Dictionary Of Turkmenistan - Rafis Abazov - Google Books

The Routledge Atlas of Central Eurasian Affairs - Stanley D. Brunn, Stanley W. Toops, Richard Gilbreath - Google Books

You can look up what Tamerlane (Timur) did to the Muslim Arab inhabitants of Aleppo, what he did to the Ottomans in Anatolia, or the Indian Muslims in Delhi, or how he virtually destroyed and wrecked the empires true heirs of Genghis Khan (the Chagatais and others). He exterminated a massive part of the Muslim world.

Timerlane himself was not a descendant of Genghis. He married Bibi-Khanym, who was a descendant and was awarded the title Guragan.

He first forced the Western Chagatais into vassale, and planned to launch a campaign against the Eastern Chagataids and the Ming dynasty at the same time.

The Chagatais aided the Ming when they were being attacked by the Manchus.

Manchu conquest of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

@Wholegrain

Do you know if the Ding family has any webpage, organization of some short or anything along those lines? Could be interesting.

Also is Arabic a subject/language that can be studied in China? Also have you ever met any Arab students in China? Because there are quite a few.

We also have Chinese students in the Arab world. But I guess you can find Chinese people all over the world.

I'm not in China right now, but I think we have a Chinese Muslim member here.

@Hu Songshan

You there?

Arabic and all other world languages can be studied in China
 
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@kalu_miah

Timurs war against the Muslim eastern Chagatai khanate-

Mathematics in Historical Context - Jeff Suzuki - Google Books

From Movable Type Printing to the World Wide Web: Essays on Civilizations ... - H. K. Chang - Google Books

Historical Dictionary Of Turkmenistan - Rafis Abazov - Google Books

The Routledge Atlas of Central Eurasian Affairs - Stanley D. Brunn, Stanley W. Toops, Richard Gilbreath - Google Books

You can look up what Tamerlane (Timur) did to the Muslim Arab inhabitants of Aleppo, what he did to the Ottomans in Anatolia, or the Indian Muslims in Delhi, or how he virtually destroyed and wrecked the empires true heirs of Genghis Khan (the Chagatais and others). He exterminated a massive part of the Muslim world.

Timerlane himself was not a descendant of Genghis. He married Bibi-Khanym, who was a descendant and was awarded the title Guragan.

He first forced the Western Chagatais into vassale, and planned to launch a campaign against the Eastern Chagataids and the Ming dynasty at the same time.

The Chagatais aided the Ming when they were being attacked by the Manchus.

Manchu conquest of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I'm not in China right now, but I think we have a Chinese Muslim member here.

@Hu Songshan

You there?

Arabic and all other world languages can be studied in China

Thank you very much. Much appreciated. Indeed Timur was made of the same clothes as Hulagu Khan when it comes to killing Muslims.

Really. That sounds rather interesting. Maybe I should ask him those questions?

Also do you know if there are any descendants of Genghis Khan in China? I mean individuals who are recognized as such by their names? I know that he left many undocumented off-spring.

Or what about the Mughals? Do they not have quite a few descendants left in the male line? Maybe more a question for the Indian/South Asian members here?:cheesy:
 
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Thank you very much. Much appreciated. Indeed Timur was made of the same clothes as Hulagu Khan when it comes to killing Muslims.

Really. That sounds rather interesting. Maybe I should ask him those questions?

Also do you know if there are any descendants of Genghis Khan in China? I mean individuals who are recognized as such by their names? I know that he left many undocumented off-spring.

Or what about the Mughals? Do they not have quite a few descendants left in the male line? Maybe more a question for the Indian/South Asian members here?:cheesy:

Genghis Khan's clan is known as Borjigin and there are some among the population of ethnic Mongols in Inner Mongolia, but they are not Muslim.
 
Genghis Khan's clan is known as Borjigin and there are some among the population of ethnic Mongols in Inner Mongolia, but they are not Muslim.

Thank you. Yes, I suspected that they were not Muslims. I mean was the last Chinese ruling dynasty not of Mongolian origin? The Qing Dynasty?

Do the Borjigin clan have any local or political relevance in Inner Mongolia? Do they play any cultural or religious role at least on a small local scale?
 
I am impressed with your knowledge of history. Perhaps you can explain this:

Timur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A short summary for everyone else who can't be bothered to read everything above-

The descendants of Genghis Khan founded the following Empires - the Yuan Dynasty (buddhist), the Chagatai Khanate(Muslim), the Ilkhanate (Muslim), and the Golden Horde (Muslim).

The Chagatai Khanate eventually became a rival and an enemy to the Yuan. The Chagatai also split into two halves, the Western Chagatai Khanate and Eastern Chagatai Khanate (Moghulistan).

The Ming dynasty expelled the Yuan Buddhist mongols from China and drove them into the steppes where they became the Northern Yuan dynasty.

Tamerlane, who is NOT a descendant of Genghis Khan, wants to built his own empire. He first beat the Western Chagatai Khans into becoming his puppets and vassals and marries a Genghisid descendants. He then waged wars repeatedly against the Eastern Chagatai Khanate (Moghulistan), and planned to ally with the Northern Yuan (buddhists) against Ming China.

While he was at that, Tamerlane also decided to attack the Golden Horde as well.

Tamerlanes ENEMIES-


Ming dynasty China

Western Chagatai Khanate (muslim descendants of Genghis Khan, forced into vassalage by Tamerlane)

Eastern Chagatai Khanate (muslim descendants of Genghis Khan)

Golden Horde (Muslim descendants of Genghis Khan)

Delhi Sultanate (Muslim empire)

Ottoman Empire (Muslim)


Tamerlanes ALLIES-


Northern Yuan dynasty (buddhist descendants of Genghis Khan)
 
Timur was NOT A CHAGATAID, he was an ENEMY of the Chagatai Khanate. He even waged war against the Chagatai Khan and wanted to conquer it along with the Ming.

EDIT: he beat and forced the Chagatai Khan to accept his authority after seizing their capital.

Btw Timur was not a descendant of Genghis Khan. He married a descendant and took a title that was equivalent to son in law.

He also attacked the Ottomans, sacked Aleppo and massacred thousands of Muslims, and sacked the Delhi Sultanate too. He had more Muslim blood on his hands than that of non Muslims.

Most of the above is true, no question about that. But you are applying present day moral judgement on medieval conquerors, that is frowned upon by professional historians. That said Timur definitely was one of the most ruthless conquerors in world history, with scant regard for human lives, but he never lost a war, to his credit. This is the summary on his life from wiki:

Timur, Tarmashirin Khan, Emir Timur (Persian: تیمور‎ Timūr, Chagatai: Temür "iron"; 9 April 1336 – 18 February 1405), historically known as Tamerlane[1] (from Persian: تيمور لنگ‎, Timūr-e Lang, Aksak Timur "Timur the Lame" in Turkish), was a Turkic ruler.[2][3][4] He conquered West, South and Central Asia and founded the Timurid dynasty. He was the grandfather of Ulugh Beg, who ruled Central Asia from 1411 to 1449,[5][6][7] and the great-great-great-grandfather of Babur Beg, founder of the Mughal Empire, which ruled parts of South Asia for around two centuries, from 1526 until 1707.[8][9][10][11][12]

Timur envisioned the restoration of the Mongol Empire of Genghis Khan.[13] As a means of legitimating his conquests, Timur relied on Islamic symbols and language, referring to himself as the Sword of Islam and patronizing educational and religious institutions. He converted nearly all the Borjigin leaders to Islam during his lifetime.[14] His armies were inclusively multi-ethnic. During his lifetime Timur emerged as the most powerful ruler in the Muslim world after defeating the Mamluks of Egypt and Syria, the emerging Ottoman Empire and the declining Sultanate of Delhi. Timur had also decisively defeated the Christian Knights Hospitaller at Smyrna, styling himself a Ghazi.[15] By the end of his reign Timur had also gained complete control over all the remnants of the Chagatai Khanate, Ilkhanate, Golden Horde and even attempted to restore the Yuan dynasty.[citation needed]

Timur's armies were feared throughout Asia, Africa, and Europe.[16] sizable parts of which were laid to ruin by his campaigns.[17] Scholars estimate that his military campaigns caused the deaths of 17 million people, amounting to about 5% of the world population,[18][19] leading to a predominantly barbaric legacy.
Timur is also recognized as a great patron of art and architecture, as he interacted with Muslim intellectuals such as Ibn Khaldun and Hafiz-i Abru.[20]

Chagatai Khanate was divided into two parts, West and East. The Western Transoxiana went under Timur, the Gurkani (son-in-law) dynasty, while the east (most of today's Xingjiang) remained under Chagataid (Chingisid) remnants, till the upheaval's with Zungar's and the subsequent conquest and annexation by Qing dynasty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagatai_Khanate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moghulistan

The other thing to consider is that Timur himself was of Mongol descent just like the Chingisids, although not directly from Chingis Khan himself:
Barlas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Borjigin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Thank you. Yes, I suspected that they were not Muslims. I mean was the last Chinese ruling dynasty not of Mongolian origin? The Qing Dynasty?

Do the Borjigin clan have any local or political relevance in Inner Mongolia? Do they play any cultural or religious role at least on a small local scale?

The Qing dynasty were not Mongol. Their clan was Aisin Gioro and they were Manchu. They only had Borjigin blood in their maternal line. The Borjigin don't have political revelance today in both Inner Mongolia and the country of Mongolia, its just a prestigious bloodline. They don't hold any secular or religious titles.
 
The Qing dynasty were not Mongol. Their clan was Aisin Gioro and they were Manchu. They only had Borjigin blood in their maternal line. The Borjigin don't have political revelance today in both Inner Mongolia and the country of Mongolia, its just a prestigious bloodline. They don't hold any secular or religious titles.

Sorry, you are right. They were Manchurian indeed. But did they not have Mongol admixture? Also are the Manchurian and Mongol people not relatively closely tied with each other? Aha, you answered the first question in your second line, at least partially.

Aha. So they are only prestigious in the same way as the European aristocracy is seen as prestigious? It surprises me that they have no political relevance at all. Do they not have a head of the clan? What about the Muslim Borjigin's? Do you know if they have any descendants left/influence?

Thank you again.

I quickly looked a this page but not sure how reliable it is. It is Wikipedia after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan
 
Most of the above is true, no question about that. But you are applying present day moral judgement on medieval conquerors, that is frowned upon by professional historians. That said Timur definitely was one of the most ruthless conquerors in world history, with scant regard for human lives, but he never lost a war, to his credit. This is the summary on his life from wiki:



Chagatai Khanate was divided into two parts, West and East. The Western Transoxiana went under Timur, the Gurkani (son-in-law) dynasty, while the east (most of today's Xingjiang) remained under Chagataid (Chingisid) remnants, till the upheaval's with Zungar's and the subsequent conquest and annexation by Qing dynasty:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagatai_Khanate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moghulistan

The other thing to consider is that Timur himself was of Mongol descent just like the Chingisids, although not directly from Chingis Khan himself:
Barlas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Borjigin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Northern Yuan dynasty was still a non Muslim Empire after Tamerlane's death (he didn't succeed in converting them nor the Borjigins who reside in Mongolia today), and Tamerlane he didn't intend to restore Genghis Khan's descendants, he wanted to personally take the throne for himself.

Northern Yuan Dynasty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He was building his own personal empire and using Genghis Khan's achievements as a standard to compare himself to. If he wanted to restore Genghis's descendants to the throne, he wouldn't have attacked the Golden Horde or Chagatais. He was collecting them like figureheads and chess pieces after defeating them and didn't give them any political power.

The point I am making is that the Muslim descendants of Genghis Khan (the Chagataids) had mostly normal relations with China. Tamerlane waged war against both the Chagataids and planned to do so on China. After Tamerlane died and the threat ended, there were only a few skirmishes over trade missions between various parties. The Chagataid Prince Turumtay from Kumul even died while fighting for the Ming dynasty against the Manchus.
 
Sorry, you are right. They were Manchurian indeed. But did they not have Mongol admixture? Also are the Manchurian and Mongol people not relatively closely tied with each other? Aha, you answered the first question in your second line, at least partially.

Aha. So they are only prestigious in the same way as the European aristocracy is seen as prestigious? It surprises me that they have no political relevance at all. Do they not have a head of the clan? What about the Muslim Borjigin's? Do you know if they have any descendants left/influence?

Thank you again.

I quickly looked a this page but not sure how reliable it is. It is Wikipedia after all.

Descent from Genghis Khan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They don't have revelance because China and Mongolia are no longer monarchies. Most Muslim descendants probably live outside of China like the former Khans of the Crimean Khanate.
 

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