China's War Plans For India

[below_freezing]

By that same logic, IAF could send Mig 27 and Jaguars, escorted by Su 30 MKIs and Mirage 2000, with guidance from A50 Phalcons to do the same right?

The defense capabilities of India aren't that low as they were in the past, in techs we are even pretty much at the same level if you compare it correctly. Even the advantage of surprise is low, because Indian forces switched the focus from Pakistan to China long ago and why weapon developments and procurment are aimed on countering China.
Your are mistaken if you believe achiving air superiority over India will be so easy, let alone that countries like Russia, or even the US will just watch and don't intervene. India is too important for them these days and especially the US needs India as a counterweight to China.
But of course it will be the other way around too, Indias offensive capabilities against China are not existent at the moment, neither bombers, long range missiles, nor SSBNs, or carriers are available that would pose a threat, but all these (except of the bombers) are under development and that exactly is what makes China nervous.
Till now, only South Korea, Japan together with the presens of US forces in the east was a threat to China. With India getting stronger in the west too, China feels the feels the string of perls suddenly itself.

However, imo opinion, we should not do western countries the favour and stop our booming economies, just because of some minor border problems. They fear a strong Asia with major economies like, Russia, India and China, as well as South Korea and Japan way more, than our military power.
We don't have to be best friends to be good trade partners and we don't have to be allies to have a common opinion on Asian problems and we will have the most advantages if we concentrate on improving ourselfs and countering the west, instead of each other!

The problem in India doing the same is numerous.

First, to counterattack, it must have long range cruise missiles capable of attacking chinese strategic sites. Except for targetting the Tibet Railroad, such capability does not exist. The Brahmos, while fast, is short ranged compared to the 2000 km range of CJ-10 and 3000 km range of HN-3. In addition, we have air launched versions of these missiles from the H-6, meaning that they can be based out of reach as far as Beijing or Zhengzhou and still be able to hit targets in India.

Second, both the types and the numbers of BVR missile launching platforms india has is much lower (Su-30 only) than ours (J-8, J-10, J-11). In addition, India has no air to air versions of anti radiation missiles while we have the YJ-91, making India's AWACs much more vulnerable.

Third, India's best anti radiation missile is the Kh-31 with a range of 110 km, which is just within the range of S-300 PMU1. The probability of a successful attack by india on our SAMs is much lower than that of ours.

Fourth, india has a geographical disadvantage. In any war, northern india immediately becomes a battlefield, while China's major population centers are 2000 km away.

Finally, in any war against India, the first target is northern indias SAM radars. Only through either total or partial suppression of these can any other successful attack be launched. This can be done either through air attacks, like the US, or it can be done more conventionally, with the 400 km range WS-2 rocket artillery, which is able to bombard New Delhi from Askai Chin.

 

[prototype]

The problem in India doing the same is numerous.

First, to counterattack, it must have long range cruise missiles capable of attacking chinese strategic sites. Except for targetting the Tibet Railroad, such capability does not exist. The Brahmos, while fast, is short ranged compared to the 2000 km range of CJ-10 and 3000 km range of HN-3. In addition, we have air launched versions of these missiles from the H-6, meaning that they can be based out of reach as far as Beijing or Zhengzhou and still be able to hit targets in India.

Second, both the types and the numbers of BVR missile launching platforms india has is much lower (Su-30 only) than ours (J-8, J-10, J-11). In addition, India has no air to air versions of anti radiation missiles while we have the YJ-91, making India's AWACs much more vulnerable.

Third, India's best anti radiation missile is the Kh-31 with a range of 110 km, which is just within the range of S-300 PMU1. The probability of a successful attack by india on our SAMs is much lower than that of ours.

Fourth, india has a geographical disadvantage. In any war, northern india immediately becomes a battlefield, while China's major population centers are 2000 km away.

Finally, in any war against India, the first target is northern indias SAM radars. Only through either total or partial suppression of these can any other successful attack be launched. This can be done either through air attacks, like the US, or it can be done more conventionally, with the 400 km range WS-2 rocket artillery, which is able to bombard New Delhi from Askai Chin.

another twisted facts by fellow chinese frnd
what make u think that our anti rad missiles will b intercepted by ur s-300 but ur anti rad will rip through our s-300 system

have u ever hear about the techniques used by mobile sam's to fool anti rad missiles

have u heard abt the novator k-100 and vympell r-77 missiles equiped on su-30 and the mbda mica present on mirage 2000

we dont need to fire our missiles deep inside china,we only have to target the rail lines and highways inside tibet to cripple ur arms supply

and if u think ur mid course interceptors(in development) r going to intercept agni 3 from falling on beijing,u r wrong mate ur mid course interceptors can only intercept icbm's not irbm's

and the most important fact what abt ur oil supplies in the indian ocean,ur navy is bigger then us but not that big to take ur adventures deep inside indian ocean

with p-8i posiden submarine hunters indian ocean will become a big graveyard of chinese submarines

 

[below_freezing]

because your anti radiation missiles hvae to be launched just within range of S-300 since it has a slightly less range (110 km), but ours have a 250 km range, well outside the range of even S-300 PMU2.

novator is really good but currently russia and india are still negotiating, if we went to war right at this moment, they will not be avaliable.

even if not all indian SAMs are crippled, they only need to be weakened enough so that a saturation attack of 500 CJ-10s and DF-21s can be launched at command and control facilities in India.

 

[IBRIS]

even if not all indian SAMs are crippled, they only need to be weakened enough so that a saturation attack of 500 CJ-10s and DF-21s can be launched at command and control facilities in India.

Now which one of your holes did you pull this statement out from. Next time think before typing. there are 100s of members are ready to demolish your claims.

 

[ramu]

because your anti radiation missiles hvae to be launched just within range of S-300 since it has a slightly less range (110 km), but ours have a 250 km range, well outside the range of even S-300 PMU2.

novator is really good but currently russia and india are still negotiating, if we went to war right at this moment, they will not be avaliable.

even if not all indian SAMs are crippled, they only need to be weakened enough so that a saturation attack of 500 CJ-10s and DF-21s can be launched at command and control facilities in India.

India and China will not go for an all out war. If they do, then the future of both the countries will be in jeopardy. Neither the think tank in China or the babus in India are naive to forgo the benifits and luxuries of economic development inorder to pursue Arunachal Pradesh or for china to extent proxy support to Pakistan.

In the case of a limited way confined to Chinese occupied Kashmir or in the north east, India is at a disadvantage because of the terrain. However, it is better off fighting on its terrain as Chinese will find it difficult to fight in a terrain that is our backyard. India can surely expect losses with a high-tech warfare. However, Indian weapons are potent and can cause enough destruction to make logistics an issue for China.

The Chinese have better geography to support their forces. More economic might implies quicker recovery. However, if China wants to negotiate from a position of strength, it will try and occupy the territory it claims by setting foot on Indian soil. This is a scenario where the Indian forces can try and cut off supply lines and given the terrain on our side is more accustomed to our troops , a long battle is guaranteed.

Unlike 1962, the diplomatic and political clout of India is far greater and forced occupation of territory will spell trouble for China. Even in case china gains on some fronts, the Indian Navy can strangle some of the important sea routes to China. Indian influence and cooperation with Russia, Japan, Israel and US will be tested in such a scenario.

 

[deckingraj]

India and China will not go for an all out war. If they do, then the future of both the countries will be in jeopardy. Neither the think tank in China or the babus in India are naive to forgo the benifits and luxuries of economic development inorder to pursue Arunachal Pradesh or for china to extent proxy support to Pakistan.

In the case of a limited way confined to Chinese occupied Kashmir or in the north east, India is at a disadvantage because of the terrain. However, it is better off fighting on its terrain as Chinese will find it difficult to fight in a terrain that is our backyard. India can surely expect losses with a high-tech warfare. However, Indian weapons are potent and can cause enough destruction to make logistics an issue for China.

The Chinese have better geography to support their forces. More economic might implies quicker recovery. However, if China wants to negotiate from a position of strength, it will try and occupy the territory it claims by setting foot on Indian soil. This is a scenario where the Indian forces can try and cut off supply lines and given the terrain on our side is more accustomed to our troops , a long battle is guaranteed.

Unlike 1962, the diplomatic and political clout of India is far greater and forced occupation of territory will spell trouble for China. Even in case china gains on some fronts, the Indian Navy can strangle some of the important sea routes to China. Indian influence and cooperation with Russia, Japan, Israel and US will be tested in such a scenario.

You might have underestimated Indian might....anyways this kind of pi$$ing contest do no good so no comments...

 

[ramu]

You might have underestimated Indian might....anyways this kind of pi$$ing contest do no good so no comments...

Nope .. I have not but I have not underestimated China either.

 

[deckingraj]

Nope .. I have not but I have not underestimated China either.

and you should not....However you might wanna revesit this particular part in your post

"Unlike 1962, the diplomatic and political clout of India is far greater and forced occupation of territory will spell trouble for China. Even in case china gains on some fronts, the Indian Navy can strangle some of the important sea routes to China. Indian influence and cooperation with Russia, Japan, Israel and US will be tested in such a scenario."

I very well agree that we are not in a position to attack china but IMO we can very well defend our land....We do not need to use diplomacy to free any land that China would forcefully occupy.....Anyways as said what's the point of having all these discussions...

 

[Nemesis]

If we leave aside nationalism, the threat assessment made in the original article seems to be right. The fact is, China has just started a high speed railway network in Tibet. They have highways on their side of the border. What do we have? Goat tracks? The GOI seems to have woken up to the threat but is still doing very little.

I would like to hear what our military professionals members have to say about the article.

I very well agree that we are not in a position to attack china but IMO we can very well defend our land....We do not need to use diplomacy to free any land that China would forcefully occupy.....Anyways as said what's the point of having all these discussions...

We can't defend our lands if we don't have the proper infrastructure in place.

The point of these kinds of threads is to wake up to a potential Chinese threat and take steps to nullify it. We don't want repeats of 1962, do we?

 

[EyelessInGaza]

first, i'm not copying the indian members, i'm copying gambit, who said that: USAF B-1s and B-2s can destroy any early warning radar the PLA has. when asked about countermeasures to said bombings, he said nothing.

but i'll go 1 step further, and talk about possible indian countermeasures.

other than S-300, india has no long range air defense missiles, that is, over 100 km range.

the range of our best anti-radiation missile, the YJ-12, is 250 km, 50 km more than S-300 PMU2. Our second best, YJ-9, has a range of 120 km, slightly within the range of S-300 PMU2's but just beyond that of the 9M96E2 on PMU1.

in the event of any war, under KJ-2000 jamming and guidance, JH-7E and J-8s will carry out bombing missions against SAM radars and indian AWACs, and because india purchases these systems, they cannot be replaced easily, thus a loss is essentially permanent.

indian AWACs have just began arriving in may 2009 and will take a year for them to be integrated into the air force

Indian Air Force - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

thus a preemptive strike by the PLAAF now with YJ-9 and YJ-12 can cripple their surface radars. once their SAMs are disabled, DF-21 and CJ-10s can be fired with impunity at airfields, the prime minister's office, supply depots and indian army bases.

any attempt to scramble fighters will be met with overwhelming firepower. india's BVR missiles are limited to the R-77, with a range of 175 km, which can only be carried on their Su-30s; their mirage's are only equipped with 37 km Matra Super 530Ds.

However, our BVR missiles which include R-77 and PL-12 with equivalent range can be carried on most of our aircraft, including J-8s. we have double the number of J-8s that can launch BVR missiles than india has total Su-30s. Not only that, they can be guided with AWACs, which would be almost invincible against the indian air force which lacks long range air to air anti radiation missiles, but which we do not lack - we have the YJ-91.

in a real war the indian air force would suffer the same fate as the Beiyang Navy of the Qing Dynasty. let's hope we never have to fight that out, as it would cause significant damage to china's reputation, and equally massive damage to india's physical infrastructure.

Hi below_freezing, interesting analysis.

I do not troll - check my record on this forum - so bear with me when I say this:

I have some limited understanding of India's defence systems, perhaps more than many here, possibly because I have had and continue to have access to the thinking of senior professionals - politicians and military - in India.

Some of your assumptions are wrong - fatally so. No, I will not elaborate. Of course you can hit us very hard, very very hard, but beyond that?

I will say this -

Even assuming your theory of 2000 (or whatever the number was) tanks on the the Gangetic plains comes true, not a single invader will make it back out.

And the end result will be a mass catastrophe, for both nations.

Perhaps more for India, but hey if we have nothing left to lose...

BTW, on the full scale invasion of India as you envisaged it, yes Indian planners have given it some thought.

And our final response - I know for a fact - will be in line with what Moshe Dayan said in 1973 about the third temple falling.

That's all I will say.

For my Chinese friends, I would like to say that I am an admirer of your culture; I went to school with several Chinese people and I know you will be world leaders some day (if you can overcome some weaknesses, but that is another story).

So, no I am not a 'warrior' and 'fighter' or a 'hater' of the Chinese.

I am just speaking the plain, blunt truth as I understand it.

Dunno if I have this right but, xie xie!

Edit:You also said that a war "...would cause significant damage to china's reputation, and equally massive damage to india's physical infrastructure."

I know for a fact that in such an eventuality - I hope and pray it never happens - Indian planners response is intended to be such that not just your reputation will be affected.

You may be looking at massive damage to your infrastructure as well.

Believe that.

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

Hi below_freezing, interesting analysis.

I do not troll - check my record on this forum - so bear with me when I say this:

I have some limited understanding of India's defence systems, perhaps more than many here, possibly because I have had and continue to have access to the thinking of senior professionals - politicians and military - in India.

Some of your assumptions are wrong - fatally so. No, I will not elaborate. Of course you can hit us very hard, very very hard, but beyond that?

I will say this -

Even assuming your theory of 2000 (or whatever the number was) tanks on the the Gangetic plains comes true, not a single invader will make it back out.

And the end result will be a mass catastrophe, for both nations.

Perhaps more for India, but hey if we have nothing left to lose...

BTW, on the full scale invasion of India as you envisaged it, yes Indian planners have given it some thought.

And our final response - I know for a fact - will be in line with what Moshe Dayan said in 1973 about the third temple falling.

That's all I will say.

For my Chinese friends, I would like to say that I am an admirer of your culture; I went to school with several Chinese people and I know you will be world leaders some day (if you can overcome some weaknesses, but that is another story).

So, no I am not a 'warrior' and 'fighter' or a 'hater' of the Chinese.

I am just speaking the plain, blunt truth as I understand it.

Dunno if I have this right but, xie xie!

Edit:You also said that a war "...would cause significant damage to china's reputation, and equally massive damage to india's physical infrastructure."

I know for a fact that in such an eventuality - I hope and pray it never happens - Indian planners response is intended to be such that not just your reputation will be affected.

You may be looking at massive damage to your infrastructure as well.

Believe that.

Let me be honest with you. It is India that ILLEGALLY occupies Chinese land, not the other way around. You guys thought that since the KMT/CPC was mired in civil war, war against White Invasion in Korea, etc that you would attack with your FORWARD POLICY.

You were warned to stop stealing land, but you did not head MULTIPLE warnings, hence we retaliated. Throughout this whole time we were always stronger -- why didn't we attack India? --> BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO TAKE YOUR LAND, WE JUST WANT OUR LAND BACK. THE FACT THAT WE CHOSE TO PEACEFUL LAND-SWAP solidly shows our sincerity. But you would not accept the generous land swap. The land you "CLAIM" does not belong to you ---> WHY THE HECK WOULD LAND INHIBITED BY ETHNIC INDIGENOUS MONGOLOIDS BE "INDIAN"??? ANSWER: IT IS NOT.

Your greed for Akhand Bharat makes you covet other people's lands.... and that's just not right. We Asians are happy for a unified "India", but not Akhand Bharat.

 

[ramu]

If we leave aside nationalism, the threat assessment made in the original article seems to be right. The fact is, China has just started a high speed railway network in Tibet. They have highways on their side of the border. What do we have? Goat tracks? The GOI seems to have woken up to the threat but is still doing very little.

I would like to hear what our military professionals members have to say about the article.

We can't defend our lands if we don't have the proper infrastructure in place.

The point of these kinds of threads is to wake up to a potential Chinese threat and take steps to nullify it. We don't want repeats of 1962, do we?

agreed.
the difference b/w the two defence forces is the technology and infrastructure.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

L The land you "CLAIM" does not belong to you ---> WHY THE HECK WOULD LAND INHIBITED BY ETHNIC INDIGENOUS MONGOLOIDS BE "INDIAN"??? ANSWER: IT IS NOT.

.........

I will say this...if you represent the thought of the Chinese establishment, then I am sorry but you guys are arrogant...

What makes you think that an "ethnic indigenous mongoloid" cannot be Indian?

What makes you think that an Uighur is Chinese BTW?

Please answer both questions carefully, because in answering that you will also demonstrate whether you are serious about the debate.

BTW, the first is a very very intricate question.

EDIT: And, also, remember this, China is not "generous"; your country does what it wants in its interests; fair enough because India does the same.

But please do not cloak your 'realpolitik' in the mask of "generosity".

 

[SinoIndusFriendship]

I will say this...if you represent the thought of the Chinese establishment, then I am sorry but you guys are arrogant...

What makes you think that an "ethnic indigenous mongoloid" cannot be Indian?

What makes you think that an Uighur is Chinese BTW?

Please answer both questions carefully, because in answering that you will also demonstrate whether you are serious about the debate.

BTW, the first is a very very intricate question.

What makes you think Biharis are "Indian"??? What makes you think Goans are "Indian"??? What makes you think Kashmiris are "Indian"???

I answer your question, now answer mine.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

What makes you think Biharis are "Indian"??? What makes you think Goans are "Indian"??? What makes you think Kashmiris are "Indian"???

I answer your question, now answer mine.

You answered you own question, SinoIndusFriendship.

The same reason that Biharis are Indian, that Goans are Indian, is also the reason that "Ethnic Mongoloids whatever" are also Indian.

As simple as that.

I compliment you on your understanding of India, BTW. But you may want to study India a little more.