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China's potential weakness now worries West more than its strength

Ah yes, another collapse article!

Get you gas masks, water purifiers and 5.8 mm rounds! Ive seen enough episodes of The walking dead, played many hours of Fallout and read David Brin's 'The postman' enough times to know what to do.

Bring it on!
 
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I agree @LeveragedBuyout , its almost sickening that some "Chinese" posters in PDF have such uninhibited hatred for America, Americans, and especially for Japan and Japanese. It is rather sickening! :crazy: :disagree:

One has to really filter through the many to find the quality discussion that even has an educational relevance to it. Let alone with realistic notions.
What you japs do makes us hate you,including both what you did in the past and what you are doing now.
 
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Why is that? Did I say something out of line? I do recall in that thread, it was you who asked what Chinese grievances towards the US were, and I think I gave you a pretty good summary.

You certainly gave good information, but it was over the top to call American foreign policy "psychopathic" given how friendly the US has been to China, especially compared to the other Great Powers, and especially in the context of the values (or lack thereof) of the colonial period. The US has been very high-minded when dealing with China, on balance. China embraces history to an extent that the US does not, to nurture grievances. I would expect it to also recognize friendly behavior toward it through its history.

The other point that I thought was a bit strange was your accusation that the US corporate media issues endless propaganda against China. You live or have lived in the West, so you know that media has a wide spectrum of opinion on China, and is not censored by the state and restricted by the party line. Despite knowing this, you have projected China's media system onto the West, which I found, to put it lightly, unrealistic. Corporate media reports what sells, not what the government tells it (unless it's left-wing media).

Other than your perspective on the US, I have enjoyed your content.
 
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You certainly gave good information, but it was over the top to call American foreign policy "psychopathic" given how friendly the US has been to China, especially compared to the other Great Powers, and especially in the context of the values (or lack thereof) of the colonial period. The US has been very high-minded when dealing with China, on balance. China embraces history to an extent that the US does not, to nurture grievances. I would expect it to also recognize friendly behavior toward it through its history.

The other point that I thought was a bit strange was your accusation that the US corporate media issues endless propaganda against China. You live or have lived in the West, so you know that media has a wide spectrum of opinion on China, and is not censored by the state and restricted by the party line. Despite knowing this, you have projected China's media system onto the West, which I found, to put it lightly, unrealistic. Corporate media reports what sells, not what the government tells it (unless it's left-wing media).

Other than your perspective on the US, I have enjoyed your content.

I think I acknowledged the historical US amicability towards China. But in the current relationship, that amicability is virtually nowhere to be seen. China is on the defensive in the US-China bilateral relations, because it is almost always the US that initiates the confrontation or manufactures a new issue to harass China with. And what happens in the present day of course has to take precedence over history.

I also don't agree with your assertion that Western media is not censored or restricted. In theory, it has a free media, but in practice, at least among mainstream corporate outlets, the media is tightly muzzled and forced to push an overarching narrative approved by the elites. You should read "Manufacturing Consent" by Chomsky for a clear exposition of how the corporate media industry works. It's virtually indistinguishable from the party line in China.
 
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I think I acknowledged the historical US amicability towards China. But in the current relationship, that amicability is virtually nowhere to be seen. China is on the defensive in the US-China bilateral relations, because it is almost always the US that initiates the confrontation or manufactures a new issue to harass China with. And what happens in the present day of course has to take precedence over history.

I also don't agree with your assertion that Western media is not censored or restricted. In theory, it has a free media, but in practice, at least among mainstream corporate outlets, the media is tightly muzzled and forced to push an overarching narrative approved by the elites. You should read "Manufacturing Consent" by Chomsky for a clear exposition of how the corporate media industry works. It's virtually indistinguishable from the party line in China.

What happens in the present does not qualify as "psychopathic.". It may not be in China's interests, but I would appreciate your explanation for why US foreign policy is outside the bounds of all reason.

Media:

Groupthink is one thing, government direction of the media is something else. No less than Paul Krugman and Thomas Friedman on the left have consistently and loudly praised China. On the right, No less than the Cato Institute, the Heritage Foundation, and the American Enterprise Institute (and their media counterparts) have praised China for now being more capitalist than the US in many respects. The reality of our corporate landscape just not match your perception.

I am sorry that you've brought out Chomsky to prove your point, since he proves the opposite. Chomsky is a shrill critic of the US, but is given a lot of play in the supposed government-controlled media. (On a side note, Chomsky's claim to fame, universal grammar, is controversial at best, and profoundly incorrect at worst, based on continuing research about the brain--not a man universally admired, so his credentials don't bolster an argument).

Other infamous examples of media defiance of the government include the Pentagon Papers, Wikileaks, and the Snowden revelations about the NSA. Walter Cronkite propagandized against America's involvement in the Vietnam War to the degree that even to this day, most Americans believe the Tet Offensive was a success for the VC and a massive defeat for the US.

American media sees itself as an opponent or watchdog of the government. When a left-wing government in in power, right-wing media will criticize. When a right-wing government is in power, the left-wing media will criticize. You focus too much on left-wing media protection of a left-wing president (and vice-versa in the past). As I said, American media has a wide spectrum of opinion, so your focus on one element and generalizing to the whole is not good practice.

Your assertions are not observable in realty; on their face, they are untrue. You know this because you live in the society (or have lived there, can't tell just from your flag), and can see what I am saying is true--if you care to look. If you had been living in China your whole life, and your perceptions of the West had been formed by what you had been told, I would understand. But the fact that you can see the truth with your own eyes, yet still deny it, is what I find to be out of line. That's why I have pointed out that you lose objectivity when it comes to the US.
 
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I am sorry that you've brought out Chomsky to prove your point, since he proves the opposite.
Am not. Anyone who brought on Chomsky in the hope to score debate points is -- to me -- an incompetent at basic research on the issue under discussion. In the linguistics front, am willing to concede to Chomsky, no matter how controversial, since that is his area in academia. Personally, am more interested in semiotics, re Umberto Eco, anyway. But as far as Chomsky goes, his hypocrisy and dishonesty are apparent and same goes for the gullibility of the sheeps that follows him.
 
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You certainly gave good information, but it was over the top to call American foreign policy "psychopathic" given how friendly the US has been to China, especially compared to the other Great Powers, and especially in the context of the values (or lack thereof) of the colonial period.

If I may offer my opinion, that's certainly your view of China-US relations. But, looking from China at the present time (past is of no practical value to make sense of the present), US seems pretty hostile and, you need to respect that opinion even if you do not agree with that without taking it by heart. Yes, indeed, US is a number one threat to China from both hard and soft power perspectives).

The other point that I thought was a bit strange was your accusation that the US corporate media issues endless propaganda against China. You live or have lived in the West, so you know that media has a wide spectrum of opinion on China, and is not censored by the state and restricted by the party line. Despite knowing this, you have projected China's media system onto the West, which I found, to put it lightly, unrealistic. Corporate media reports what sells, not what the government tells it (unless it's left-wing media).

Again, that's your opinion of the nature of things the way it is seen from your vantage point. For majority of Chinese, US media is excessively anti-China. The way how China regulates its media is nobody's business, so offering value statements such as " Corporate media reports what sells, not what the government tells it" really does not impress us much. Hence, perhaps it is better to respect each other's opinion and do not impose one's belief upon the other. Any statement I made is of my own, it is not to educate you or to convince you. I do not attach value to your opinion as being good or bad; you can try a similar approach. No body will change opinion just because some online poster believes strongly in something.

its almost sickening that some "Chinese" posters in PDF have such uninhibited hatred for America, Americans, and especially for Japan and Japanese. It is rather sickening!

That's called being realistic. Your feelings toward the US and their people is of yours and very lovely and sweet, but, leave others the choice of love and hate. And, in keeping their feelings out their business, I think Chinese is no less pragmatist than Japanese. In this sense, Northeast Asians share similar traits.

Remember, according to TaiShang, any instability in China is the result of plotting by US academics, US journalists, US tourists, etc., since the US has plotted to destroy China for the last century. Once the US is toppled, per Beidou2020 and pigtaker, China will be a paradise.

That's a gross mischaracterization. But I will leave you with that.

I clearly stated that past is not to get hooked up, and at present, yes, the US is the largest exitential threat to China, but, the level of that threat might not necessarily mean that US is hellbent on destroying China, capable of doing that, or China is easily to be destroyed. See that? The possibility of an existential threat is there and real (this is certainly debatable); but, it actualization is becoming less likely.

But nothing wrong with that. Just as you have opinions of others, others have opinion of yourself although I will not voice mine so liberally.

Why is that? Did I say something out of line? I do recall in that thread, it was you who asked what Chinese grievances towards the US were, and I think I gave you a pretty good summary.

I think being critical of the US and wishing to be ready for any nasty surprises is by default being anti-US.
 
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LOL. You doubt your own news article agency? Why, too democratic for your taste? :lol:
michele bachmann said the end is near and Fox agrees. Do you want my get into heaven free card? Never been used. Cause you know believe in your own media and since America is democratic it must be true.

These are the two criteria, you set, no?
 
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michele bachmann said the end is near and Fox agrees. Do you want my get into heaven free card? Never been used. Cause you know believe in your own media and since America is democratic it must be true.

These are the two criteria, you set, no?


1. Please provide citation for your claim on Bachman and Fox' concurrence.

2. You're just being a nicknack right now.

:lol:
 
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1. Please provide citation for your claim on Bachman and Fox' concurrence.

2. You're just being a nicknack right now.

:lol:
Michele Bachmann: Obama 'Funding' Terrorists Is Proof That We're Living In The End Times

opps, watched too much Bill Maher recently, got confused with another issue entirely, but the Bachman thing is real, though the fox thing is equally funny. I'll post it if you want.


As to you, wouldn't you just believe anything that anyone says about China as long as it's bad.


I got a Japanese magazine that claims one F-22 can take out 20 Chinese fighters in one trip, when in fact F-22 cannot carry that many missiles, so either F-22 is magic or parts of the Japanese media is also bull.

PLA cannot compete with US F-22 fighters: Japanese media|Politics|News|WantChinaTimes.com

Fourth paragraph. BTW, this site just summarizes it, there are also others.
 
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Michele Bachmann: Obama 'Funding' Terrorists Is Proof That We're Living In The End Times

opps, watched too much Bill Maher recently, got confused with another issue entirely, but the Bachman thing is real, though the fox thing is equally funny. I'll post it if you want.


As to you, wouldn't you just believe anything that anyone says about China as long as it's bad.


I got a Japanese magazine that claims one F-22 can take out 20 Chinese fighters in one trip, when in fact F-22 cannot carry that many missiles, so either F-22 is magic or parts of the Japanese media is also bull.

PLA cannot compete with US F-22 fighters: Japanese media|Politics|News|WantChinaTimes.com

Fourth paragraph. BTW, this site just summarizes it, there are also others.


Exactly, you got confused. :lol:
 
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If I may offer my opinion, that's certainly your view of China-US relations. But, looking from China at the present time (past is of no practical value to make sense of the present), US seems pretty hostile and, you need to respect that opinion even if you do not agree with that without taking it by heart. Yes, indeed, US is a number one threat to China from both hard and soft power perspectives).

Let's break this down. First, let me say I appreciate the calm approach you have taken, and I hope you will approach this with an open mind, as I intend to.

About China and history: come on, really? China signed a peace treaty with Japan, but still manages to nurture grievances against Japan for the atrocities Japan committed in China 70 years ago. These atrocities were not committed in the present, and nearly all of the perpetrators of those atrocities are dead. Nearly all of the victims of those atrocities are dead. If you say that the "past is of no practical value to make sense of the present" when it comes to China's view of the world, it diminishes your credibility.

In the present, the US occupies no land that is disputed by China, has imposed no economic embargoes on China, has imposed no financial restrictions on China, has not raised special tariffs against China in retaliation for China's currency manipulation or industrial espionage, etc. As far as the US is concerned, we have normal relations. It is China that is maneuvering to push the US out of Asia (even though the US is an Asian power), not the US that is maneuvering to push China out of Asia or contain it. Any sense of encirclement felt by China must recognize that the factors of encirclement (military bases and alliances) pre-date the rise of China and were put into place to counter the USSR. If China seeks to replace the USSR as America's great rival, that is China's choice, but it is not an inevitability.

We have been through this before, and I have been through this with Raphael. The US may not be as "respectful" as China believes it deserves, but the US has taken no tangible action against China that justifies China's sense of victimhood.

Next. What I was responding to was not Raphael's suggestion that the US is hostile to China, or that the US is the number one thread to China. This is reasonable, since China is hostile to the US and is the number one threat to the US. What I took exception to was his labeling of US foreign policy as "psychopathic."

psy·chop·a·thy
1) a mental disorder in which an individual manifests immoral and antisocial behavior, lack of ability to love or establish meaningful personal relationships, extreme egocentricity, failure to learn from experience, etc.
2) any mental disease

I regard such a description as bordering on hysteria. If you believe that this is a fair description of US foreign policy, then I suppose we have nothing left to discuss. If you believe that this is an extreme exaggeration of US foreign policy, then you'll understand why I've pushed back hard against Raphael's assertion. China is hostile to the US and is our number one threat, but we do not view China's behavior as beyond all bounds of reason or deriving from mental illness.



Again, that's your opinion of the nature of things the way it is seen from your vantage point. For majority of Chinese, US media is excessively anti-China. The way how China regulates its media is nobody's business, so offering value statements such as " Corporate media reports what sells, not what the government tells it" really does not impress us much. Hence, perhaps it is better to respect each other's opinion and do not impose one's belief upon the other. Any statement I made is of my own, it is not to educate you or to convince you. I do not attach value to your opinion as being good or bad; you can try a similar approach. No body will change opinion just because some online poster believes strongly in something.

I find this hard to believe, because the majority of Chinese do not consume US media. If the majority of Chinese believe that US media is excessively anti-China, it's because they have been told so, and lack the intellectual curiosity or means (thanks, Great Firewall of China) to find out the truth for themselves. If this is the cause of Chinese hostility to the US, then we are doomed, because most Chinese will never be able to find out that at worst, most Americans never give a thought to China, and at best, many Americans admire China and hope to establish warm relations with it. America has virtually no negative history with China, as I have pointed out repeatedly, and on the contrary, has helped China several times in the past. We have no reason to hate China, but it's hard to like a country that hates your country for no real reason. China may make this hatred a self-fulfilling prophecy, which may be the CCP's goal in order to deflect popular anger against internal conflicts, but it does not help China in the long run.



That's a gross mischaracterization. But I will leave you with that.

I clearly stated that past is not to get hooked up, and at present, yes, the US is the largest exitential threat to China, but, the level of that threat might not necessarily mean that US is hellbent on destroying China, capable of doing that, or China is easily to be destroyed. See that? The possibility of an existential threat is there and real (this is certainly debatable); but, it actualization is becoming less likely.

But nothing wrong with that. Just as you have opinions of others, others have opinion of yourself although I will not voice mine so liberally.

Again, word choice is important.

ex·is·ten·tial
pertaining to existence.

In short, if you claim that the US is an existential threat to China, then you claim that the US has the intent to end China's existence. Not regime change in China, not imposing our value system on China, but ending China as a geographic entity, possibly along with its people.

This is sheer hysteria. Paranoia of such a degree that I cannot fathom it. I invite you to present proof that the US is preparing a nuclear strike that will annihilate China from the face of the earth. I know, and you know, that such proof does not exist.

Therefore, it is not only incorrect to call the USA an "existential threat," it is a provocation of the highest order.

Your assertion about what "existential threat" comprises is not correct. Merely having the capability does not make for an "existential threat." It must be capability combined with intent. For example, ISIS is an existential threat to Iraq. Mugabe is an existential threat to white Zimbabwean farmers. Iran is an existential threat to Israel. If you insist that the US is an existential threat to China, I would like you to prove that intent.

Otherwise, if "existential threat" is based on capability alone, logic dictates that you believe that the US is an existential threat to the entire world, not just China. Surely, then, you must also regard Russia as an existential threat to China, since it has the same capability. But China has friendly relations with Russia, and not with the US. Why?



I think being critical of the US and wishing to be ready for any nasty surprises is by default being anti-US.

I don't think that's correct. The US has contingency war plans for even such close allies as Canada. It's good to criticize in a constructive way; when China criticizes the US over our profligate spending habits, I take it to heart. Fixing our problems will help us, and help the world. Going beyond criticism to demonization (see above re: "existential threat") is where criticism transforms into anti-American rhetoric.

In any case, I hope this just comes down to careless word selection and mis-communication, rather than a sincerely held belief about the US. As I have said many times here, I admire China. I have Chinese colleagues and friends, and I have traveled to China many times. I admire Chinese history, Chinese accomplishments, and want the best for China. There is nothing inevitable about China-US hostility, just as there was little such friction when the British Empire handed off global leadership to the US. We have the opportunity on this forum to discuss these points of friction, and hopefully smooth them out, while most Americans and Chinese do not. I hope in some small way we can bridge the gap of mistrust that has developed.
 
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