China's conditional promise on Outer Mongolia

[8888888888888]

I don't think Russia want Outer Mongolia anymore, China could just pay a huge sum of money to Russia and Russia will not care about outer Mongolia.

 

[rott]

In war all is fair. It is true there are a lot of inferior Chinese people and overseas Chinese which only care about the opinions of other white people. This is a definition of a beta male syndrome that is prevalent in East Asia due to watching too many gay Korean dramas and licking white balls. Alpha males do things because they want to, regardless of what others think and do not need to justify their actions

Very well said bro and absolutely true. I've seen enough of these pu**ies in my life already.

 

[Martian2]

I don't think Russia want Outer Mongolia anymore, China could just pay a huge sum of money to Russia and Russia will not care about outer Mongolia.

No.

Outer Mongolia has always been Chinese territory.

If the Russians disagree, we smash them militarily.

Russians did not need Chinese permission to retake Crimea.

China does not need Russian permission to retake Outer Mongolia.

 

[powastick]

I agree if the west can't honor agreements, then China no longer need to hold it. US intends to play Taiwan card.

 

[TaiShang]

I support China's view regarding the South China Sea.
Taiwan may have contributed more than Singapore but it is disappointing to hear you brush away our contribution towards China's progress especially in governance, where China sent more than 50,000 of their mayors and officials here for training.
Very sad if this is how a future strong China will treat her old friends.
.

Definitely won't be the case.

Although I agree with @Martian2 's argument regarding not to be apologetic to our actions when we have historical titles and right to (at least passively) react, it is very difficult to agree with the views regarding Singapore and other China's "Northern" neighbors (Singapore, in a sense, is a northern neighbor, as well).

For once, Singapore's efforts to bring back Mainland and Taiwan together into an eventual path of unification won't be forgotten. Aside from 1992 consensus in which Singaporean (brotherly) ingenuity played no small part (although I learned it from textbooks), the memory of Xi-Ma meeting in Singapore is still very fresh in our minds. I remember the excitement I felt in the classroom at that time as an IR student and pro-unification person.

As for public governance, that's indeed a solid scientific fact; that Singapore, Seoul and Tokyo have provided China with immense practical and theoretical knowledge of good governance. My own professor (of Public Management) was one of the teams as part of a Mainland excursion to Singapore.

Please ascribe these back and forth conversation to the heat of the moment and let's maintain the good will and historical-cultural wisdom.

***

On topic: It makes strategic sense, just as the US wants to use SCS and TW as trump cards against China, China can use Mongolian trump card.

But, frankly, I guess the first takeover by China of historic territories will be in Taiwan island. I will be happily greeting the PLA soldiers.

 

[sinait]

Definitely won't be the case.

Although I agree with @Martian2 's argument regarding not to be apologetic to our actions when we have historical titles and right to (at least passively) react, it is very difficult to agree with the views regarding Singapore and other China's "Northern" neighbors (Singapore, in a sense, is a northern neighbor, as well).

For once, Singapore's efforts to bring back Mainland and Taiwan together into an eventual path of unification won't be forgotten. Aside from 1992 consensus in which Singaporean (brotherly) ingenuity played no small part (although I learned it from textbooks), the memory of Xi-Ma meeting in Singapore is still very fresh in our minds. I remember the excitement I felt in the classroom at that time as an IR student and pro-unification person.

As for public governance, that's indeed a solid scientific fact; that Singapore, Seoul and Tokyo have provided China with immense practical and theoretical knowledge of good governance. My own professor (of Public Management) was one of the teams as part of a Mainland excursion to Singapore.

Please ascribe these back and forth conversation to the heat of the moment and let's maintain the good will and historical-cultural wisdom.

***

On topic: It makes strategic sense, just as the US wants to use SCS and TW as trump cards against China, China can use Mongolian trump card.

But, frankly, I guess the first takeover by China of historic territories will be in Taiwan island. I will be happily greeting the PLA soldiers.

I don't take his comments to heart.
That's why I said "Wow, what happened to you today"

I can understand his POV, even his disappointment with Singapore.
Singaporeans are bombarded all their lives with US propaganda and Western bias fake news.
I learned all these deviousness of the Indians and a more in depth knowledge of China's territorial disputes only a few years ago and I am 64 now. Mostly we are fed the "just look at the map, China is so far away" narrative by our Western Media influenced Singapore newspapers which I don't bother to read anymore.
Most Singaporeans couldn't be bothered with what happened in 1962 between China and India, which I believe is the same with the Chinese.

We are not privy to the pressures our ministers face, but it is revealing that General George Yeo our former foreign minister says, " Legality of China's claims in South China Sea 'not weak' " only as a private citizen.
Do not underestimate the amount of pressure the US can exert on a tiny nation like Singapore.
.

 

[yantong1980]

Forget Mongolia! China has a tons of homework to do, a lot of things to fix and build in order to reclaim China place among developed countries. China should stay focus ahead and stay out from any silly idea, conflict or stand-off, which I believed, for China elites was big no-no. What Mongolia could do anyway? They sandwiched by two big strategic ally they can't mess out. Anti China or not, everyone is need money, and guess who's the one that grabbing the big bucks in Eurasia? There's Russian EEC and Chinese OBOR, that's opportunity for Mongolia's deadlock IF they can see it. IF....

 

[Zsari]

The Outer Mongolia as a buffer zone was firstly created by Josef Stalin because in the 1940s, there was no nuclear weapons, so USSR had to make sure that the Outer Mongolia to serve as a buffer zone in order to secure their supply line in Siberia. But today's geopolitical landscape is entirely different, both China and Russia are mature nuclear powers who kept other under check, and the Outer Mongolia is not Russia's core interest like Ukraine, so you are overestimating Russia's reaction.

If by having nuclear weapons make buffer zone obsolete, does that mean China would have no problem with US invading N.Korea and station troop there? With Mongolia, the length of Chinese Russian border will be more than doubled, not to mention if China claim outer Mongolia, what make Russia think it won't claim "outer Manchuria" next?

 

[leviathan]

Oh please, spare me your white-man views.

There are two ways of looking at the world.

1. The white man is always right. China is evil and all of China's historical claims are invalid.

2. Team China. We fight for China's historical territories and we set the record straight.

It's obvious that you're just another white wannabe. I could care less about your attempt to push the white man's agenda to dominate the world for the last 500 years.

Do you understand the strategic priority? Do you understand how hard to annex a sovereign state? Fight the Russia over outer Mongolia? Russia outrage everyone for Crimea because Crimea is the choke point of Russia's entire black sea navy. Even China had huge hesitation on this issue and did not denounce Russia directly.
What is the yellow man's view on this? Take Mongolia by force? What goes through your mind on this matter is exactly what those fascist Japs had 100 years ago when they look at China/Korea. Its call Fascism! Power for power's sake! Have the right to take power, then you have the right! Japs blindly conquer with their power and look what got those pussies in return? Balls sit on their face and lick them all day!

 

[Martian2]

Do you understand the strategic priority? Do you understand how hard to annex a sovereign state? Fight the Russia over outer Mongolia? Russia outrage everyone for Crimea because Crimea is the choke point of Russia's entire black sea navy. Even China had huge hesitation on this issue and did not denounce Russia directly.
What is the yellow man's view on this? Take Mongolia by force? What goes through your mind on this matter is exactly what those fascist Japs had 100 years ago when they look at China/Korea. Its call Fascism! Power for power's sake! Have the right to take power, then you have the right! Japs blindly conquer with their power and look what got those pussies in return? Balls sit on their face and lick them all day!

Do you understand China's economy is $13 trillion?

Do you understand Russia's economy is $1.5 trillion?

Destroying a country with an economy that is ten times smaller than yours is easy.

The Russians fear China. China does not fear Russia. That is the reality.

 

[Cybernetics]

Can someone shed some light on what happened after the Yuan dynasty (Mongols) were defeated by the Ming and how was Mongolia incorporated into China?

After the defeat of the Yuan Dynasty by Ming many Mongols actually stayed in Ming territory, they were scattered all over the country, in all provinces (even in the deep south). Some lived in isolated settlements, and most were assimilated into Han through intermarriage or lack of family records in the ensuing centuries. The ones outside of Ming territory were defeated by in a few campaigns, later Manchus made it a part of Qing territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yongle_Emperor's_campaigns_against_the_Mongols

Later during the 1700's various Mongol tribes fled from Ural and Siberia region to Qing territory (modern day Mongolia) due to the Russian Eastern expansion. I've visited a memorial of this event in Chengde when Qing dynasty welcomed the fleeing Mongol tribes and allowed them to settle in Mongolia.

https://www.douban.com/note/246919034/?type=like

Mongol (Yuan) Royal decendents living in Ganzhou, Jiangxi province. Although they retain some Mongol identity they have mostly assimilated with the Han, their official ethnic group is Han and look similar to the Han from the local area.
http://www.vccoo.com/v/ljw96b?source=rss

Modern China is the inheritor of the Qing Dynasty. Many foreigners argue that Qing Dynasty was Manchu and not Han but that is such a narrow understanding of modern Chinese identity, Han and Manchu have basically merged today, thus believe they have a claim over some former territories. Many Northern "minorities" are different from particular isolated minorities that live in the mountains of the southwest, instead of wanting independence they mostly want a greater China (partially due to history). China should be motivated more by its geo-strategic imperatives and not so much by history, new history will be forged based on reality's needs.

Mongolia should be given extensive autonomy since China should not be involved in much of their societal problems (they are major). China should focus resources on maximising strategic value in terms of resource extraction, out sourcing of old industries, transport infrastructure, along with placement/integration of military assets not targeted at Russia but rather from future threats emanating from the Arctic direction. In the future China will be working with Russia in the Arctic and should have forward placed assets in Mongolia or have free access across it. This in turn improves Russia and China's strategic integration.

 

[Zsari]

Do you understand China's economy is $13 trillion?

Do you understand Russia's economy is $1.5 trillion?

Destroying a country with an economy that is ten times smaller than yours is easy.

The Russians fear China. China does not fear Russia. That is the reality.

If economy size is all that matters, then China would have lost to the US in the Korean war many times over. Your biggest problem however are all these one-on-one comparison forgetting that there is $19 trillion dollar economy which in your scenario you are at war with.

 

[Martian2]

If economy size is all that matters, then China would have lost to the US in the Korean war many times over. Your biggest problem however are all these one-on-one comparison forgetting that there is $19 trillion dollar economy which in your scenario you are at war with.

No, I haven't forgotten.

China's economy is quantitatively and qualitatively superior to Russia's.

China has semiconductor fabrication plants. Russia imports Chinese computer chips and electronics.

China has a full-fledged fifth-generation J-20 stealth fighter in service.

China has all of the advantages. Russia would get crushed in a war for Outer Mongolia.
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The US supposedly has a larger economy. This is probably false, because the US economy is determined by a market-exchange rate US dollar. In comparison, the Chinese "nominal" GDP is determined by a non-market exchange rate Yuan. Since the Chinese government sets the Yuan at whatever it feels like, we only see a Chinese "nominal" GDP that the Chinese government set.

Nevertheless, the US has a large economy. Whether it is larger than China's economy is open to debate.

However, the US economy is on the other side of the planet. Since the US economy is located 10,000 miles away from the battlefield, China has the logistics advantage.

If the US thought it could win a South China Sea war, it would have fired the first shot a long time ago. The United States has not been shy in bombing Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, or whoever it feels like.

Yet, the US has shied away from confronting China in the South China Sea. This is an indication that the US military thinks it'll lose a South China Sea war.

 

[Zsari]

No, I haven't forgotten.

China's economy is quantitatively and qualitatively superior to Russia's.

China has semiconductor fabrication plants. Russia imports Chinese computer chips and electronics.

China has a full-fledged fifth-generation J-20 stealth fighter in service.

China has all of the advantages. Russia would get crushed in a war for Outer Mongolia.
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The US supposedly has a larger economy. This is probably false, because the US economy is determined by a market-exchange rate US dollar. In comparison, the Chinese "nominal" GDP is determined by a non-market exchange rate Yuan. Since the Chinese government sets the Yuan at whatever it feels like, we only see a Chinese "nominal" GDP that the Chinese government set.

Nevertheless, the US has a large economy. Whether it is larger than China's economy is open to debate.

However, the US economy is on the other side of the planet. Since the US economy is located 10,000 miles away from the battlefield, China has the logistics advantage.

If the US thought it could win a South China Sea war, it would have fired the first shot a long time ago. The United States has not been shy in bombing Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, or whoever it feels like.

Yet, the US has shied away from confronting China in the South China Sea. This is an indication that the US military thinks it'll lose a South China Sea war.

US is far away, but turning Russia into your enemy at the same time would give the US full access to your underbelly. You are not just fighting a single opponent, and all what you stated as Russia's weakness can be compensated by the US and vice versa. Even when China surpass the US in economic and military terms, an alliance between US and Russia will still put China in a very difficult position as it'll be surrounded from all sides. That is actually a very real world concern for China when Chinese national strength surpass that of the US, US will undoubtedly pull Russia to its side.

 

[Martian2]

US is far away, but turning Russia into your enemy at the same time would give the US full access to your underbelly. You are not just fighting a single opponent, and all what you stated as Russia's weakness can be compensated by the US and vice versa. Even when China surpass the US in economic and military terms, an alliance between US and Russia will still put China in a very difficult position as it'll be surrounded from all sides. That is actually a very real world concern for China when Chinese national strength surpass that of the US, US will undoubtedly pull Russia to its side.

You can believe whatever you want.

There is ZERO evidence to support your point of view.

NATO (led by the United States) has stationed 2,700 hummers, main battle tanks, howitzers, etc. in Poland and the Baltic countries.

President Trump imposed additional economic sanctions on Russia.

President Trump labeled China and Russia as strategic competitors.

I don't see a US-Russia rapprochement, because the US demands that Russia leave the Crimea, Georgian provinces, and Ukrainian provinces.

I don't think Putin will comply with US demands.

However, if you want to keep believing in your fairy-tale US-Russia alliance then it's your prerogative. It has no relationship to the real world, but you are free to believe whatever delusions that you want.
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Donald Trump frames Russia and China as 'competitors' in new America First security strategy | The Telegraph (December 18, 2017)
"Donald Trump has outlined a new Cold War-style approach to US foreign policy by framing Russia and China as competitors and stressing the importance of nuclear weapons."