China, Rome, and the United States

[Fattyacids]

If Wu Sangui had managed to separate Southern China from the Qing Empire of Manchus, many Southern Hans wouldn't have regarded him as a traitor. History is, how it is being written.

Here comes the retarded troll. Wu Sangui only has tiny Southwest province, he wanted the throne, not a separate kingdom. Our notion of traitor is very different from yours: disloyalty to emperor. Indian kingdoms were helping British to conquer one another, effectively helping the British to colonize themselves.

Historical facts are facts. I don't re-invent history like you.

 

[INDIC]

Here comes the retarded troll. Wu Sangui only has tiny Southwest province, he wanted the throne, not a separate kingdom. Our notion of traitor is very different from yours: disloyalty to emperor. Indian kingdoms were helping British to conquer one another, effectively helping the British to colonize themselves.

Historical facts are facts. I don't re-invent history like you.

RIP logic when Manchu and Mongol rule can be faked as Chinese empire and then thing I said is also true. I am sure if British had ruled China, they would too be branded as Chinese Empire by fabricated logic.

 

[Fattyacids]

RIP logic when Manchu and Mongol rule can be faked as Chinese empire and then thing I said is also true. I am sure if British had ruled China, they would too be branded as Chinese Empire by fabricated logic.

Qing is a Chinese-Manchu alliance. The flag is an emblem of chinese dragon. Both Manchu Mongol called themselves Chinese emperor, wore Chinese dragon robe, ruled with chinese civil system. You bunch of complex ridden troll had been rebutted with academic evidence time again, this thread even spanned 30 pages. Sign of metal retardation? Some troll are retarded.

 

[INDIC]

Qing is a Chinese-Manchu alliance. The seal and emblem of the flag is a chinese dragon..Both Manchu Mongol called themselves Chinese emperor, ruled with chinese civil system. You bunch of complex ridden troll had been rebutted with academic evidence time again, this thread even spanned 30 pages. That's a tell-tale sign of metal retardation.

Even Japanese adopted the Chinese culture like the Chinese writing system, use of chopstick for eating food, drinking Tea etc. The fact is Manchus were hated by Chinese nationalists and you are simply faking Manchus as a Chinese Empire.

 

[Fattyacids]

Even Japanese adopted the Chinese culture like the Chinese writing system, use of chopstick for eating food, drinking Tea etc. The fact is Manchus were hated by Chinese nationalists and you are simply faking Manchus as a Chinese Empire.

Adopting culture and calling themselves Chinese emperor are two very different things.
Your adopted English language, but British Raj don't call itself "Indian empire."
Your retardation is getting serious

 

[Wholegrain]

RIP logic when Manchu and Mongol rule can be faked as Chinese empire and then thing I said is also true. I am sure if British had ruled China, they would too be branded as Chinese Empire by fabricated logic.

The Manchus called both themselves and Han (Nikan in Manchu) people as "Dulimbai Gurun i Niyalma" (Zhongguoren) which means "Chinese people" in Manchu, they called all the territories of the Qing Empire as "Dulimbai Gurun" (Zhongguo), which means "China" in Manchu, and they called Manchu language as one of the "Dulimbai Gurun i bithe" (Chinese language), and they called the Qing Emperor as "Dulimbai Gurun i enduringge huwangdi", which means "the wise Emperor of China". "Dulimbai Gurun" is a direct translation in Manchu of the Chinese name for China, "Zhongguo".

https://webspace.utexas.edu/hl4958/perspectives/Zhao - reinventing china.pdf

This is from a Manchu language document produced by the Qing dynasty on the conquest of the Zunghar Oirat Mongols.

New Qing Imperial History: The Making of Inner Asian Empire at Qing Chengde - Ruth W. Dunnell, Mark C. Elliott, Philippe Foret, James A Millward - Google Books

“Before the distantly radiating virtue and power of my sacred lord, the western marches have been pacified and the steppes, mountains, and rivers of the Zunghar Mongols have been unified with the territory of China (Ma. dulimbai gurun).

The Manchu Way: The Eight Banners and Ethnic Identity in Late Imperial China - Mark C. Elliott - Google Books

As in the following passage from a memorial of 1759: "Respectfully reflecting [on matters]: before the distantly radiating virtue and power of my sacred lord, the western marches have been pacified and the steppes, mountains, andrivers of the Dzungar Mongols have been unified with the territory of China"

 

[INDIC]

Adopting culture and calling themselves Chinese emperor are two very different things.
Your adopted English language, but British Raj don't call itself "Indian empire."
Your retardation is getting serious

https://webspace.utexas.edu/hl4958/perspectives/Zhao - reinventing china.pdf

The Manchus called both themselves and Han (Nikan in Manchu) people as Dulimbai Gurun i Niyalma (Zhongguoren) which means "Chinese people" in Manchu, they called all the territories of the Qing Empire as "Dulimbai Gurun" (Zhongguo), which means "China" in Manchu, and they called Manchu language as one of the "Dulimbai Gurun i bithe" (Chinese language).

New Qing Imperial History: The Making of Inner Asian Empire at Qing Chengde - Ruth W. Dunnell, Mark C. Elliott, Philippe Foret, James A Millward - Google Books



The Manchu Way: The Eight Banners and Ethnic Identity in Late Imperial China - Mark C. Elliott - Google Books

Guess who said these words against Manchus.

“In order to restore our national independence, we must first restore the Chinese nation. In order to restore the Chinese nation, we must drive the barbarian Manchus back to the Changbai Mountains. In order to get rid of the barbarians, we must first overthrow the present tyrannical, dictatorial, ugly and corrupt Qing government.”

[ LETTER ] - Taipei Times

@NiceGuy @EastSea @Rechoice @Viet

 

[Wholegrain]

Guess who said these words against Manchus.

“In order to restore our national independence, we must first restore the Chinese nation. In order to restore the Chinese nation, we must drive the barbarian Manchus back to the Changbai Mountains. In order to get rid of the barbarians, we must first overthrow the present tyrannical, dictatorial, ugly and corrupt Qing government.”

[ LETTER ] - Taipei Times

@NiceGuy @EastSea @Rechoice @Viet

And what does this have to do with the fact that the Manchus considered themselves to be Chinese? They called themselves "Dulimbai gurun i niyalma" and the Qing as "Dulimbai gurun" in their own language.

 

[INDIC]

And what does this have to do with the fact that the Manchus considered themselves to be Chinese?

Yes, now even British and Dutch of South Africa are South Africans now.

 

[Wholegrain]

Yes, now even British and Dutch of South Africa are South Africans now.

The South African state and identity did not exist before Dutch and British colonization, it was the British who created South Africa and imposed their own language, and formed the new South African identity for the natives. Most narive South Africans have to learn English now to advance in their own country.

"China" (Zhongguo) existed as a concept and name since the Zhou dynasty over 2,500 years ago. The Qing adopted this identity and name. Both Classical Chinese and Manchu were official languages of the Qing, and by the 19th century Manchu language proficiency in the general population and in the court itself was seriously declining and most Manchus spoke Chinese.

 

[INDIC]

They called themselves "Dulimbai gurun i niyalma" and the Qing as "Dulimbai gurun" in their own language.

I am a bit surprised, why non-Hans of China never used the name Zhongguo for China.

Names of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The South African state and identity did not exist before Dutch and British colonization, it was the British who created South Africa and imposed their own language, and formed the new South African identity for the natives. Most narive South Africans have to learn English now to advance in their own country.

"China" (Zhongguo) existed as a concept and name since the Zhou dynasty over 2,500 years ago. The Qing adopted this identity and name. Both Classical Chinese and Manchu were official languages of the Qing, and by the 19th century Manchu language proficiency in the general population and in the court itself was seriously declining and most Manchus spoke Chinese.

The same Manchus almost doubled the size of China compared the size of China during Ming Empire and your modern perception of China is based on the same territory empire created by Qing Empire of Manchus, not the one created by Zhou, Qin, Han or Ming.

 

[Grand Historian]

Indic's argument makes no sense,the British did not situate their capital in the Indian subcontinent,adopt Hinduism/Jainism/Buddhism etc,call themselves Indian,forced Christianity and English learning,directly asorb Indians into the British upper class and many more.

Furthermore the anti Manchu sentiment was a minority opinion otherwise there would be far more rebellions and bloodshed,the queue was kept by pro Qing Han Chinese in the countryside and overseas Chinese,during Puyi's restoration the majority of the officials were Han,Owen Lattimore mentioned that the term Manchu rarely used in Manchuria the Qiren(ie the Manchu/Mongol/Han bannermen) and Min(civilians) were the distinction.

Why do you call for backup from Vietnamese trolls they never contribute anything worthwhile to the discussion.

 

[Wholegrain]

I am a bit surprised, why non-Hans of China never used the name Zhongguo for China.

Names of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The same Manchus almost doubled the size of China compared the size of China during Ming Empire and your modern perception of China is based on the same territory empire created by Qing Empire of Manchus, not the one created by Zhou, Qin, Han or Ming.

According to Manchus, all the territory of the Qing = China.

https://webspace.utexas.edu/hl4958/perspectives/Zhao - reinventing china.pdf

"Dulimbai Gurum" is the direct Manchu translation of Zhongguo, and the Manchus used Zhongguo in Chinese language documents to refer to the Qing. It means Middle Kingdom.

Mongols in China also use a direct translation of Zhongguo, "Dumdadu Ulus".

 

[Snomannen]

I am a bit surprised, why non-Hans of China never used the name Zhongguo for China.

Names of China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The same Manchus almost doubled the size of China compared the size of China during Ming Empire and your modern perception of China is based on the same territory empire created by Qing Empire of Manchus, not the one created by Zhou, Qin, Han or Ming.

I'm a bit surprised that the sources I have been posting countless time are so easily ignored:

［元史　History of Yuan］
鐵木兒塔識曰：「刺探在敵國固有之，今六合一家，何以刺探為？設果有之，正可令睹中國之盛，歸告其主，使知向化。」

鐵木兒塔識 (son of Toqto'a): "Such action of spying on your enemy state is no double expected, but since the world is now a united family, why would they even do such thing? Even if they are really spying on us, let them be. For they will see how great China 中國 (Zhongguo) is and report it to their king and let him obey (us)."

至元二十七年，帝怒，欲再發兵，丞相完澤、平章不忽木言：「蠻夷小邦，不足以勞中國 (Zhongguo)。張立道嘗再使安南有功，今復使往，宜無不奉命。」

［Nerchinsk Treaty］
「...將流入黑龍江之額爾古納河為界。河之南岸、屬於中國(Zhongguo)。河之北岸、屬於鄂羅斯。」
"Argun river will be set as the border (between the two countries). The land from the south of the river belongs to China; the land from the north of the river belongs to Russia."

「...(逆賊)不知本朝之為滿洲，猶中國(Zhongguo)之有籍貫。」
"(traitors) are so foolish that they don't even understand that Manchu is a part of China."
--Yongzheng, emperor of Qing Dynasty.

Guess who said these words against Manchus.

“In order to restore our national independence, we must first restore the Chinese nation. In order to restore the Chinese nation, we must drive the barbarian Manchus back to the Changbai Mountains. In order to get rid of the barbarians, we must first overthrow the present tyrannical, dictatorial, ugly and corrupt Qing government.”

[ LETTER ] - Taipei Times

@NiceGuy @EastSea @Rechoice @Viet

As Wholegrain has said that : [And what does this have to do with the fact that the Manchus considered themselves to be Chinese?]

Also should I remind you that the GMD has quickly corrected the proposition of the rebellion from "Han chauvinism" to "Republic of five nationalities"　- which is the foundation and the core value of the Republic of China?

 

[EastSea]

Guess who said these words against Manchus.

“In order to restore our national independence, we must first restore the Chinese nation. In order to restore the Chinese nation, we must drive the barbarian Manchus back to the Changbai Mountains. In order to get rid of the barbarians, we must first overthrow the present tyrannical, dictatorial, ugly and corrupt Qing government.”

[ LETTER ] - Taipei Times

@NiceGuy @EastSea @Rechoice @Viet

Thank for your post. Its evident for that Manchurian were invaders in to China. China have to give back all territories of other people, like Tibet, East Turkistan, Inner Mongolia etc such lands Manchurian has been illegally annexed to China in the past.