China resumes talks with Russia on Su-35 purchase

[Gessler]

Su-30SM is not the same as SU-30MKI, it has a different airframe without canards with reduced RCS, radar, cockpit and most of avionics from SU-35. Most of its avionics will be installed on Indian Super Sukhoi. If Indian version will also get L-band radars and engines of SU-35 class then it will be comparable to SU-35, but again because of one pilot configuration SU-35 will still have lower RCS and bigger load.

The tech of Super Sukhoi will include stuff originally developed for FGFA/PAKFA. The SM variant is an offspring
of MKI + SU-35 and its tech is not what IAF wants.

RCS will be determined by the composite content of airframe and RAM aplications, not just how many
crew stations there are. Plus Super Sukhoi will get 400km range AESA radar while su-35's is a PESA of
the same range.

all in all super sukhoi will be a better jet than su-35. more data will start coming out after Putin's
visit in december.

 

[zzzz]

The fact is the IAF could have accpeted the basic SU-30MK that was offered but they asked for more from Russia in the form of TVC and canards and also looked to fill in certain gaps they had seen with Western tech. Now why would the IAF remove Russian equipment and replace it with more expensive but (by your logic) lass/equally capable Western tech? Just for a laugh? No it clearly means they got the best from all sides, the Russians made a great a/c and the Indians made it even better by going to the West who are experts in certain areas and got the best tech and fitted it on to the MKI to make a beast of a machine. This is the only logical conclusion. This is an established fact, or so I thought.

Hundreds of reasons like what? Surely not cost? If not for better quality, why else would they buy Israeli and French avionics instead of the ones Russia had already integrated?

IAF's wishes are the standard of ranking for the equipments they procure and operate after careful selection. If they decided not to go with a particular system and instead went for a different one at some financial and time costs, then that is reason enough to believe that the other equipment was worth it. We trust their professionalism.

First of all who told you that western sytems are more expensive? Do you know that scale of production is the biggest factor of elecronic system cost? Do you know that most powerful Russian made CPU cost tens time more than comparable Intel processor? Thats just a one example.
Plenty of different reasons could be. IAF need something with different requrements. IAF want some systems that are the same as installed in some other Indian weapon systems. India got some deals with other countries on tech transfers or manufacturing. And so on.

 

[Ammyy]

Lets wait till deal for Super 30 finalize

But one this for sure this warship gonna beat F15 SE

 

[Abingdonboy]

First of all who told you that western sytems are more expensive? Do you know that scale of production is the biggest factor of elecronic system cost? Do you know that most powerful Russian made CPU cost tens time more than comparable Intel processor? Thats just a one example.
Plenty of different reasons could be. IAF need something with different requrements. IAF want some systems that are the same as installed in some other Indian weapon systems. India got some deals with other countries on tech transfers or manufacturing. And so on.

Denial is a river in Egypt! Belive what you want to belive. I had thought it was an establioshed fact the MKI had got superior tech and was thus the best varient of the SU-30 series, I guess this hasn't trickled down to you yet.

 

[isro2222]

@zzzz if russia had better avionics compared to france and israel than india never had went with french and israely avionics for su-30 and possibly FGFA in future.... Please stop boosting.... Su-35 is similar to Su-30MKI (30Mki without undercarriage) and will be same Super su-30MKI.... Rafale carries bit low weapon load because its midweight.... Su-35 far bigger in size compared to Rafale.... Rafale is Ferrari of Jetfighters.... Its true semi stealth jetfighter.... Its truly best quality jetfighter which both russia and china wont get it.... India very lucky to have this amazing jet fighter....
http://muhammadsubchi.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/rafale1049.jpg

 

[sancho]

SPECTRA is the 360 degree sensor suite for Rafale. SU-35 also has its own 360 degree sensor suite. I really dont have any clue how you tested and compared them.

Way too simplistic! Spectra is a EWS with many different sensors, for defensive and offensive use in detection, identification jamming and even targeting, with 360° or even spherical coverage.
The latest Flankers system is meant for defensive use only, to counter possible threats by jamming or long range detections and initiating countermeasures.

As i said already if you want to claim that it will have anything better then you should provide comparison of the technical specifications in question.
As for twin cockpit yes it offers advantage in some situations like ground strikes for example.

That goes both way, because you claim many things as well.

Take weapons for example, there is no operational Russian BVR missile with 200Km range, let alone with Ramjet propulsion like METEOR. The range is btw officially given with 100+ Km, but that is not important anyway, since the propulsion is the key feature! There is no missile with a higher smaller no escape zone like METEOR, because the high speed will be maintained in the full flight envelope. Latest R77 or AIM 120 for example offer possibly ranges that are close, but can be used only at half or 2/3 the range, because of the large no escape zone.
And when you compare the weapon package of Rafale with the Russian, you will find more weapons that are superior. MICA IR over R73/74, AASM over KAB PGMs, Scalp over Kh 59.

The Radar of the Su 35 offers more detecion range, because it's far bigger, but not because it technically better. The AESA of rafale detects more targets simultaneously, with multiple beams in a higher and needs less maintenance.

The biggest advantage though, are the passive detection and targeting features of Rafale. While the Su 35 is largly dependent on radar detection for offensive actions (IRST only for short ranges with WVR missiles), Rafale can stay fully passive, which makes it harder to detect, while beeing able to detect, track and engage them without using the radar at all (SPECTRA and MICA) and that even to BVR ranges.

 

[zzzz]

Take weapons for example, there is no operational Russian BVR missile with 200Km range

And when you compare the weapon package of Rafale with the Russian, you will find more weapons that are superior. MICA IR over R73/74, AASM over KAB PGMs, Scalp over Kh 59.

You are comparing to old Russian missiles and bombs and of different class.

The biggest advantage though, are the passive detection and targeting features of Rafale. While the Su 35 is largly dependent on radar detection for offensive actions (IRST only for short ranges with WVR missiles), Rafale can stay fully passive, which makes it harder to detect, while beeing able to detect, track and engage them without using the radar at all (SPECTRA and MICA) and that even to BVR ranges.

SU-35's OLS-35 IRST tracker can lock on targets from up to 100km range. No advantage of Rafale here.

 

[sancho]

You are comparing to old Russian missiles and bombs and of different class.

I am comparing to what is available for Su 35 today and not for Pak Fa in future. And what do you mean with different classes?

SU-35's OLS-35 IRST tracker can lock on targets from up to 100km range. No advantage of Rafale here.

No advantage in what sense? Can it guide any missile with IRST to such ranges? It might be able to detect enemy fighters with IRST from longer ranges, but has to engage them with radar again.

 

[zzzz]

I am comparing to what is available for Su 35 today and not for Pak Fa in future. And what do you mean with different classes?

It is available for SU-35 today. RVV-BD finished state trials in 2011. By class i mean like comparing 900kg missile with 1.4t one. But anyway you can compare Scalp to Kh-59MK/MK2, even such bigger weight will not help.

No advantage in what sense? Can it guide any missile with IRST to such ranges? It might be able to detect enemy fighters with IRST from longer ranges, but has to engage them with radar again.

Missile will use its own radar when it will be close to target. And how will Rafale guide missiles without radar?

 

[sancho]

It is available for SU-35 today. RVV-BD finished state trials in 2011. By class i mean like comparing 900kg missile with 1.4t one. But anyway you can compare Scalp to Kh-59MK/MK2, even such bigger weight will not help.

Not really, because it is only under development and not even close to be integrated into Su 35, again it is aimed on Pak Fa!
The weight has not an issue, it's the purpose that counts and both are the biggest A2G missiles that the Su 35 and Rafale carries, even in similar numbers.

Missile will use its own radar when it will be close to target. And how will Rafale guide missiles without radar?

When it's close to the target, but not from 100Km distance and most Russian AAMs don't have data link capability. Rafale can detect and track targest with data gathered by SPECTRA sensors, FSO, or external sensors and can feed them into MICA. MICA can be launched with lock on after launch and data link capability, to remain passive and provide midcourse guidance. It will use it's own seekers only when it's close enough and within the no-escape zone, which makes it less detectable and increases the kill probability.

 

[zzzz]

Not really, because it is only under development and not even close to be integrated into Su 35, again it is aimed on Pak Fa!

It is already developed and serial production started.

When it's close to the target, but not from 100Km distance and most Russian AAMs don't have data link capability. Rafale can detect and track targest with data gathered by SPECTRA sensors, FSO, or external sensors and can feed them into MICA. MICA can be launched with lock on after launch and data link capability, to remain passive and provide midcourse guidance. It will use it's own seekers only when it's close enough and within the no-escape zone, which makes it less detectable and increases the kill probability.

If you are gonna feed the missile with something you are not anymore in passive mode. And most of Russian missiles have datalinks.

 

[t_for_talli]

If they buy, it will be a couple. China will make its own Su-35, and better.

look at stealer's lap dog...openly supporting its master's wrong deeds (its not something to be proud of)

Why cant China comes out with something original
J11~Su series
J31~F22
J15~Su33

Now look at other counter parts in same class:
There is no similarity between EF-Rafale-Su-F15 or F22-PAKFA or F16-Mirage2K-Mig29
Even a layman by looking at Chinese fighters can tell that they have blindly copied the design let alone other stuff

 

[BigDaddyWatch]

look at stealer's lap dog...openly supporting its master's wrong deeds (its not something to be proud of)

Why cant China comes out with something original
J11~Su series
J31~F22
J15~Su33

Now look at other counter parts in same class:
There is no similarity between EF-Rafale-Su-F15 or F22-PAKFA or F16-Mirage2K-Mig29
Even a layman by looking at Chinese fighters can tell that they have blindly copied the design let alone other stuff

You are joking right ? The J-31 is a copy of the F-22. These are two planes from different weight classes and build to perform different roles. It's true that the J-11, J-15 and the J-16 are based on Flanker designs but the J-20, J-10, J-31 and the JH-7 are unique designs of their own because there are no other planes like it.

If we follow you're logic then the SU-27 and the MiG-29 are copies of the F-15 and the Eurofighter and the Rafale are also copies of each other. All the Boeing jetliners are copies of Airbus or vice versa. And not to mention the Tejas is a copy of the Mirage 2000. And based on what ? Just because all these planes look a like.

 

[seven7seven]

You are joking right ? The J-31 is a copy of the F-22. These are two planes from different weight classes and build to perform different roles. It's true that the J-11, J-15 and the J-16 are based on Flanker designs but the J-20, J-10, J-31 and the JH-7 are unique designs of their own because there are no other planes like it.

If we follow you're logic then the SU-27 and the MiG-29 are copies of the F-15 and the Eurofighter and the Rafale are also copies of each other. All the Boeing jetliners are copies of Airbus or vice versa. And not to mention the Tejas is a copy of the Mirage 2000. And based on what ? Just because all these planes look a like.

I wouldn't get too bothered about the Copy-cat tag if I was you mate. Anybody with even an inkling of military history knows that all countries steal and copy the most advanced technology they can obtain. China has had to play catch up for decades and copying Russian designs is the quickest and most accessible way to get a foothold into the military aviation building business. Reverse engineering of things like jet fighters is actually a very difficult and laborious process and requires significant investment in a country's core sciences, such as material science, aerodynamics, propulsion, avionic electronics, radar, guidance, sensor technology, modular construction, etc. China having implemented these core manufacturing and research capabilities into practice are now amongst elite military countries with the technical proficiency to build the most advanced jet fighters.

FWIW, the J-20 and J-31, though derived from F-22 and F-35 show their own Chinese design influence and looking at new aircraft concepts shown at the Zhuhai airshow, China are starting to flex their design muscles and will build upon what they have already learned. Military innovation has nothing to do with some Western mojo that dictates that only the West and Russia can make great technologically advanced weapons systems. All it takes is a lot of investment from a economically successful nation, with good management, and finding the right talent and providing said talent with the facilities and resources to do their work. If people are banking on China to fail because they will reach a creative ceiling, I think they will find themselves being consistently disappointed in the coming decades. If anything can be learned from China's rise is that instead of whining and begrudging their backwards position in the World, they knuckled down and worked their a*ses off to get to where they are now.

 

[arcelite]

Since the early 1990s, an extensive sales arrangement of the Su-35 to China has been discussed; in 1995 Sukhoi officials announced their proposal to co-produce the Su-35 with China, on the condition that China agreed to purchase 120 aircraft.[50] However, it has been alleged that the Russian Foreign Ministry blocked both the sale of the Su-35 and Tupolev Tu-22M bombers over concerns about the arrangements for Chinese production of the Su-27.[51] In November 2010, it was reported that Rosoboronexport was ready to hold talks with China on the sale of Su-35s.[52][53] In March 2012, it was reported that Russia and China are in final contract negotiations for 48 Su-35 fighters; the only remaining obstacle is reportedly Moscow's demand that Beijing guarantee proper licensing for its Su-35 production.[54][55] However, China and Sukhoi have denied the purchase.[56] It is believed Russia is reluctant to sell the Su-35 as it fears that China may reverse engineer its aircraft systems

WIKIPEDIA

Seeing su 27 will ruskies want to give up the one thing that makes their planes stand out?

Last heard Russia decided to stop providing its RD-93 engines to China in order to prevent Beijing from taking over its market.