China red-flags India’s entry into NSG, may push for Pakistan

[Hyperion]

Exactly --- this we both agree on!

Won't matter once we get in.

 

[punit]

Difference of priorities

A common indian would be more happy having access to toilets than india becoming part of NSG

but a common Pakistani will eat grass for bomb. martial race yeah !

 

[Rafi]

Our relationship with China goes back thousands of years - this is a civilization to civilization nexus.

 

[NaMaloom]

We dont have a plan for so called peaceful rise by threatening our neighbours.

Yeah, your government just conducts 'peaceful' nuclear tests. What irony!

Use your brain dude. I was talking about a situation prevailed in India around one decade vago just after 98 test.
And US sanctioned us.But they realized that it is not gonna affect us.
Then they came here in the name of nuke deal .We didnt ask for it.They came here and we agreed with certain conditiin. Your nation asked for it and entire world knows your nation sembarrassing face palm movements just after they rejected it. US took one decade of talks for come with an equal terms with us.Now we have a good relation and our PM invite Obama.

So you are saying India has no need for the $100bil a year trade with the United States? If you didn't need the Americans, you wouldn't have agreed to ANY conditions but you admit you 'agreed with certain conditions'. This is because you need America to get a seat at all tables of international forums where big decisions are made. Please quit kidding yourself otherwise.

 

[NaMaloom]

Look seems now we are repeating ourselves and moving from the original point in debate...anyhow let me try to reply...

There is nothing wrong in learning even from your enemy...India has always remained away from joining camps and have maintained independent foreign policy...it is the benefits of those things that today we have decent relations with almost every major force on this planet...Would you concede that much??

Now let's look at Pakistan...They always joined camps and that's why major powers have managed to influence their foreign policy..It is your dependance on atleast one power center throughout your history is what i am pointing at..Would you agree with that much??

So you are saying India voting three times against Iran at the IAEA because of the United States wasn't America influencing Indian foreign policy?

India votes against Iran in IAEA resolution - The Hindu

Or when the Ukrainian crisis started with Russia annexing Crimea, an entire part of another country through illegal invasion, India sided with Russia

India's Reaction to the Situation in Ukraine: Looking Beyond a Phrase | Brookings Institution


I could go way back in the past to give you hundreds of examples of Indian foreign policy decisions which clearly demonstrate that India has conveniently done much the same you accuse Pakistan of, by choosing to join this or that camp. India's much hyped non-aligned foreign policy is a sham at its worst and a face-saving 'walking the line' tactic at best.

Now if you are that clear about National interests then why question what other parties are doing...Why bring this moral cry about being fair or not fair regarding NSG membership for India and not Pakistan?? Bold line post Peshawar massacre sounds blind patriotism my friend...

Well you are welcome to have your own opinion...however there is just one super power at the moment and thinking any country having balls to disown that power center then it is like living in fools paradise..

Its far more than a moral cry. Its about NSG's and NPT's credibility. If you grant membership to a non-NPT state in the NSG which was itself created as a reaction to India's ironically titled 'peaceful nuclear test' in 1974 then you cannot hold back Pakistan and Israel asking for the same. Bringing up Pakistan's past 'proliferation' is a diplomatic gimmick & smokescreen for Indian fanboys to harp about on forums such as this since Pakistan, like India is a non-NPT state and therefore cannot be charged with 'proliferation' under any definition of criminal liability.

As for Peshawar, the incident itself is a proof that TTP has been largely defeated and reduced to desperate measures where they attack innocent unarmed kids, not even adults like before. The same cannot be said about India's Maoist problems. Surely, there is a lesson on blind patriotism for you in this.

No one said Pakistan is tossing the United States to the curb or vice versa; thats not how diplomatic relations work. For example, no other country could be more anti- American than North Korea, and yet they have diplomatic connections. My point that Pakistan is squarely in the Chinese camp doesn't mean its a zero-sum game since even Israel, America's greatest ally scorns the Americans from time to time to do diplomacy and business with China.

Thanks for atleast agreeing to my statement that leverage is only till exit..whenever that happens..

Don't be naive...you don't formulate policies after an escalation....2009-2014 is not decades old era...our economy was going down the gutter and so was the interest of world powers...Now there are signs of freshness and results are in front of you...

There wasn't any agreement with your position regarding leverage. I clearly stated that 11k American troops will remain in Afghanistan until 2017, even after which the coalition will consolidate around Kabul. The implication here was that its an ongoing situation with the biggest leverage Pakistan having is letting American's show the world that after 14 long years of war and countless dead American soldiers, there is a stable government in Afghanistan to show for that will endure. That there was some point to all this madness of war.

Americans already know this and hence the immense pressure on Karzai's successor to fix relations with Pakistan and to stop harboring TTP leaders and Baloch insurgents.

Policies may or may not be formulated after an escalation but course of action certainly is. Example (Senkaku issue once again): Before Japan's Senkaku island purchase, China's attitude was one of benign negligence towards the Senkaku/Daiyu issue but after the purchase, China built an entire naval and aviation base on one of its islands closest to the Senkakus and also increased frequency of naval and airforce intrusions in to Japanese airspace.

Don't fault me for you fudging the timelines of the issue involved here. India's sluggish economic decade is vastly considered to be one from 1991-2001. India's average GDP growth between 2001-2011 was 7.4%. The American 123 agreement with India wasn't initiated until 2005 and signed in 2008 (this is the only thing you can somehow attribute to Indian economic prowess). But the bigger American foreign policy shift of the 'pivot' towards Asia came in 2012, and NO this 'pivot' is not really about economic engagement with Asia as much as it is about militarily containing China and shoring up America's East-Asian allies; Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, Philippines, etc as evident by the reopening of America's long abandoned naval bases in the Philippines.

Therefore, India's economics success is a very small cog in the larger scheme of things which led to American shift to Asia in 2012.

Now you are loosing argument here buddy...China abstained means they did not want to stop NSG waiver...Pakistan could have cried a river however she couln't have done anything about it...Now what China promised you in your bilateral agreement is b/w you and China...however with NSG waiver we can practically trade with anyone in the world...also if you are so convinced about China giving you what you need then why are you making noise now??

Already stated above...Please don't bring in your bilateral things here...What China wants to give you nobody can do jack about it...However can china get you a NSG waiver like US got for India?? Answer is a big no...and the reason - your reputation and your insignificant geo-political status...

Anyone who feels the need to boast about 'winning the argument' or telling the other person they have 'lost the argument' clearly has issues which am sure others can see evidently in your comments.

China abstained because it did not want to be seen as the jeopardizing factor, not because it believed India should have the waiver. Full NSG membership, however, is a completely different ball-game. Whatever 'noise' you think Pakistan is making is called diplomatic posturing to make sure that it won't be easy for the United States to build consensus to allow India into the NSG as a full member.

As for 'bilateral' agreements; I was mentioning China's nuclear exports to Pakistan in the context of the NSG. Since India's nuclear trade with each NSG member country is also a 'bilateral' agreement between that country and India. NSG doesn't have a warehouse marked 'NSG' from where nuclear goods are loaded up and sent to India.

The last two sentences of your post are hilarious. Frustration and annoyance dripping profusely. Maybe even foaming at the mouth? My sympathies.

Epicnon sense.

Oh I'm very sure you make perfect sense with your bad grammar, spelling mistakes and one liner trolling for being a 'senior member'. *cringe*

Someone I was speaking to, gave his take on the issue in the most appropriate language,

Quote

"Islamabad was bound to ask Beijing (more than once) for power plants after the US-India nuclear deal was struck and after its approval by the NSG. Beijing was bound to say ‘yes’ to its all-weather friend. If Washington and other presumed profit takers could twist arms to reach consensus on a deal that subverted the NSG’s objectives and purposes, then Beijing could disingenuously ignore the consensus rule. Then Washington was bound to seek a reaffirmation of the consensus rule that it had previously weakened.

It took no great gift of prophecy to predict this."


Enough said.

 

[knightmare]

So you're projecting 50 years into the future as absolute certainty now? Indians are sometimes known get overexcited and brag only to have reality hit them in the face. See my signature to refresh your memory.

Fact is, India has yet to surpass China's growth rates despite declaring that it would for years and years now. Let's see India grow faster than China just a little bit before crowing triumphant about India's "double digit growth" and future larger economy when present day India's economy is barely larger than Italy's.

And by the way, India is nowhere close to a double digit growth rate. "India Shining" called - it wants its delusions back.

This time it is not Indians, but IMF and World Bank declaring that India's growth rates will surpass China next year. If you choose not to believe in their projections then I have no other argument to make.
And there are clear indications. If you are a little bit interested in reading economic news you would know China is preparing for slower growth rates. Their current efforts are focused on keeping it more than what US or other developed economies grow at. But they have accepted the fact they would not be able to maintain such high rate of growth in future.

 

[Mike_Brando]

India must be stopped from being delusional thinking that they are one of the big boys, when in reality they are such a non-factor.

Says a man from a puny nation called "Egypt" currently living in another puny nation Phillipines.Mate,first go and save your country from the clutches of the Muslim Brotherhood terrorists and then perhaps we can have a meaningful discussion in here.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

This time it is not Indians, but IMF and World Bank declaring that India's growth rates will surpass China next year. If you choose not to believe in their projections then I have no other argument to make.
And there are clear indications. If you are a little bit interested in reading economic news you would know China is preparing for slower growth rates. Their current efforts are focused on keeping it more than what US or other developed economies grow at. But they have accepted the fact they would not be able to maintain such high rate of growth in future.

India to outpace China by 2011: World Bank - IBNLive

 

[AgentOrange]

India to outpace China by 2011: World Bank - IBNLive

"But...but...*this* time will be different for India!"

By the way bro, you notice he backed off from claiming India was close to growing at double digits? I think he forgot that everyone who has internet access also has access to google and simple fact checking.

It seems a lot of these Indian ultranationalists are very "lenient" when it comes to throwing numbers and figures around. Anything to make India look good - even if it deviates from the harsh reality that China adds an entire India, economically speaking, every 2 years and that the gap between China and India is actually growing in China's favor.

Too bad for them that in the real world, actions and results matter more than Indian hot air.

 

[SrNair]

Yeah, your government just conducts 'peaceful' nuclear tests. What irony!





So you are saying India has no need for the $100bil a year trade with the United States? If you didn't need the Americans, you wouldn't have agreed to ANY conditions but you admit you 'agreed with certain conditions'. This is because you need America to get a seat at all tables of international forums where big decisions are made. Please quit kidding yourself otherwise.

And that 100$billion relation also helpful to US .That is not some kind of aid .It is a mutual trade relation.And they need
our market.Think twice before post such a stupidity.
US also need us.Us entire powerplay is based on their democratic advantage .Then how can they complete their objectives without world largest democracy on their side.

 

[Steakhouse]

And that 100$billion relation also helpful to US .That is not some kind of aid .It is a mutual trade relation.And they need
our market.Think twice before post such a stupidity.
US also need us.Us entire powerplay is based on their democratic advantage .Then how can they complete their objectives without world largest democracy on their side.

US conduct their foreign policy never center around India in the past, US never rely on India support to push through US agenda worldwide.

 

[jaunty]

Pakistan's entry is impossible due to its poor record of nuclear proliferation, in today's language which can also be termed as nuclear terrorism.

 

[Steakhouse]

Pakistan's entry is impossible due to its poor record of nuclear proliferation, in today's language which can also be termed as nuclear terrorism.

Problems India rely on China vote yes to get into the NSG membership. China vote yes for India, you shall expect China to push forward Pakistan membership with NSG.

 

[jaunty]

Problems India rely on China vote yes to get into the NSG membership. China vote yes for India, you shall expect China to push forward Pakistan membership with NSG.

Regardless of India's status, Pakistan will not be accepted by other members.

 

[deckingraj]

Buddy the post is getting very long..so will cut some lines while keeping the context...

So you are saying India voting three times against Iran at the IAEA because of the United States wasn't America influencing : India sided with Russia India's Reaction to the Situation in Ukraine
I could go way back in the past to give you hundreds of examples of Indian foreign policy decisions which clearly demonstrate that India has conveniently done much the same you accuse Pakistan of, by choosing to join this or that camp. India's much hyped non-aligned foreign policy is a sham at its worst and a face-saving 'walking the line' tactic at best.

You yourself is proving of what i am saying...We have independent foreign policy...We voted against Iran because we don't want any nuclear state in our vicinity(we are not crazy like china)...yet we maintained decent relations with Iran...In fact we have voted agaisnt Israel as well...We have recently blocked WTO deal..we are at logger jams with US on environment deal and blah blah...In short wherever our interest is we follow it...don't you think this is what independent policy is??

I believe your definition of joining camps is flawed...that's why you are arguing over something which is like a writing on wall...Joining camps means siding with USA(one power center) at the cost of USSR(another power center)...getting engulfed into WOT which was against your national interests ...Joining camps means "No relations with Israel" as compared to your neighbour having relations with both Palestine and Israel...

Its far more than a moral cry. Its about NSG's and NPT's credibility. If you grant membership to a non-NPT state in the NSG which was itself created as a reaction to India's ironically titled 'peaceful nuclear test' in 1974 then you cannot hold back Pakistan and Israel asking for the same. Bringing up Pakistan's past 'proliferation' is a diplomatic gimmick & smokescreen for Indian fanboys to harp about on forums such as this since Pakistan, like India is a non-NPT state and therefore cannot be charged with 'proliferation' under any definition of criminal liability.

Boss, don't change goal posts...if you think the driver is national interests then there is no point about fair/unfair....There is virtually nothing on the table that Pakistan can bring which will drive country like USA to get them NSG waiver....period!!

Sorry but bold part is plain stupid...Proliferation will not be allowed irrespective of NPT status...plain and simple...

As for Peshawar, the incident itself is a proof that TTP has been largely defeated and reduced to desperate measures where they attack innocent unarmed kids, not even adults like before. The same cannot be said about India's Maoist problems. Surely, there is a lesson on blind patriotism for you in this.

Did i claim that Moist problem is resolved in India?? So are saying that your country's worst terrorist attack is a desperate measure? How would it sound if i say Indian establishment defeated Pak sponsored terrorism and the proof is Mumbai(a desperate attempt!!)....No i am not comparing the incidents...all i am saying that a countries worst terror attack can't be an indicator about success rate against terrorist...Also since when did terrorist start worrying about someone being unarmed/innocent?? They are called terrorist because they attack innocents..what's new in it?? The link below gives me a different picture then what you are suggesting...

Suicide Bombing in Pakistan | PakistanBodyCount.org

Don't fault me for you fudging the timelines of the issue involved here. India's sluggish economic decade is vastly considered to be one from 1991-2001. India's average GDP growth between 2001-2011 was 7.4%. The American 123 agreement with India wasn't initiated until 2005 and signed in 2008 (this is the only thing you can somehow attribute to Indian economic prowess). But the bigger American foreign policy shift of the 'pivot' towards Asia came in 2012, and NO this 'pivot' is not really about economic engagement with Asia as much as it is about militarily containing China and shoring up America's East-Asian allies; Japan, South Korea, Indonesia, Philippines, etc as evident by the reopening of America's long abandoned naval bases in the Philippines.Therefore, India's economics success is a very small cog in the larger scheme of things which led to American shift to Asia in 2012.

You can't be more wrong on this...this average growth is a misnomer..2009-2014 era was very bad for us with virtually zero credibity of GOI and India being termed a lost story..

China abstained because it did not want to be seen as the jeopardizing factor, not because it believed India should have the waive

Comon yar...lets not discuss what is plain and simple...Ok let me ask...China didn't stop the waiver...question is why...what's your take..

Full NSG membership, however, is a completely different ball-game. Whatever 'noise' you think Pakistan is making is called diplomatic posturing to make sure that it won't be easy for the United States to build consensus to allow India into the NSG as a full member.

I don't want to be rude however you made lot of noise even during NSG waiver...results are in front of us..and of-course things are not easy(even then and now) however given the clout US has we are confident things will fall in place...

The last two sentences of your post are hilarious. Frustration and annoyance dripping profusely. Maybe even foaming at the mouth? My sympathies.

Instead of getting into such low level one-lines why not counter what have been said?? Pakistan geo-political status is insignificant...and whatever leverage they have is in AF...

Problems India rely on China vote yes to get into the NSG membership. China vote yes for India, you shall expect China to push forward Pakistan membership with NSG.

Any reason they didn't push forward Pakistan name for a similar NSG waiver which India got??