China red-flags India’s entry into NSG, may push for Pakistan

[SrNair]

US conduct their foreign policy never center around India in the past, US never rely on India support to push through US agenda worldwide.

If they want.their policy in Asia Pacific they need our help.
There is a reason for Chinese anger when we signed some deal with US during Obamas visit.Japan Australia boyh are known allies of US.
If India joined in to that equation you can imagine that.

 

[knightmare]

"But...but...*this* time will be different for India!"

By the way bro, you notice he backed off from claiming India was close to growing at double digits? I think he forgot that everyone who has internet access also has access to google and simple fact checking.

It seems a lot of these Indian ultranationalists are very "lenient" when it comes to throwing numbers and figures around. Anything to make India look good - even if it deviates from the harsh reality that China adds an entire India, economically speaking, every 2 years and that the gap between China and India is actually growing in China's favor.

Too bad for them that in the real world, actions and results matter more than Indian hot air.

From which of my posts did you infer that I feel that India cannot achieve double digit growth?

Also, please get your facts right. Currently India has a nominal GDP of 2.1 trillion $ growing at 5.6 per cent (this when till now there was no clear focus on GDP growth, Congress till now followed more of a socialist agenda and ignored growth) and China has a GDP of 9.24 trillion $ growing at 7.4 per cent. I fail to understand how 7.4% of 9.24 = 2.1. If you could moderate your lofty claims then we could have a meaningful discussion.

And if you have bothered to look at recent news reports coming out of Chinese sources (which I believe you would find more credible given your tendency of ignoring views from any other source) you would find talks about how GDP growth really doesn't matter and 6-7% per cent which is going to be a new 'normal' for China is still good enough, you would understand what I am talking about.

 

[Steakhouse]

Regardless of India's status, Pakistan will not be accepted by other members.

Since other member won't accept Pakistan then why would China accept India membership, good for the goose also good for the gander.

 

[AgentOrange]

From which of my posts did you infer that I feel that India cannot achieve double digit growth?

Also, please get your facts right. Currently India has a nominal GDP of 2.1 trillion $ growing at 5.6 per cent (this when till now there was no clear focus on GDP growth, Congress till now followed more of a socialist agenda and ignored growth) and China has a GDP of 9.24 trillion $ growing at 7.4 per cent. I fail to understand how 7.4% of 9.24 = 2.1. If you could moderate your lofty claims then we could have a meaningful discussion.

And if you have bothered to look at recent news reports coming out of Chinese sources (which I believe you would find more credible given your tendency of ignoring views from any other source) you would find talks about how GDP growth really doesn't matter and 6-7% per cent which is going to be a new 'normal' for China is still good enough, you would understand what I am talking about.

An article by Jim O'Neill, dated about 3 months ago. You know who Jim is right? The guy who coined the term "Brics" in the first place.

My favorite quote from the man himself: “China’s economy is already about one and half times the size of the other three BRIC countries put together, creating in economic terms the equivalent of a new India every two years”

Winners and losers in the global economy of 2025 | Europe’s World

 

[knightmare]

An article by Jim O'Neill, dated about 3 months ago. You know who Jim is right? The guy who coined the term "Brics" in the first place.

My favorite quote from the man himself: “China’s economy is already about one and half times the size of the other three BRIC countries put together, creating in economic terms the equivalent of a new India every two years”

Winners and losers in the global economy of 2025 | Europe’s World

Still sadly those claims are not right. I guess you have access to a calculator(although the calculations are not that hard) and could very well verify as the numbers are directly in front of you. Just because a great man said it doesn't mean that you have you have to accept it blindly.

And if you love this China-centric article (even though the article spends equal time discussing BRIC which I guess you choose to ignore) so much then why are you glossing over the lines which talk about the prospects of India's economy which exactly say what I have been saying all along. India will have a sizeable economy in the near future and thus will command an audience at any international forum.

 

[Tshering22]

Why not? Let Pakistan also join.

But then every country will develop nukes.

Something the P5 are not comfortable with.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Still sadly those claims are not right. I guess you have access to a calculator(although the calculations are not that hard) and could very well verify as the numbers are directly in front of you. Just because a great man said it doesn't mean that you have you have to accept it blindly.

And if you love this China-centric article (even though the article spends equal time discussing BRIC which I guess you choose to ignore) so much then why are you glossing over the lines which talk about the prospects of India's economy which exactly say what I have been saying all along. India will have a sizeable economy in the near future and thus will command an audience at any international forum.

The numbers are right. Here, from the IMF:

List of IMF ranked countries by past and projected GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

India GDP 2011: $1.88 trillion

India GDP 2013: $1.87 trillion


China GDP 2011: $7.3 trillion

China GDP 2013: $9.5 trillion


---------------


So every two years, we add an entire India.

By the way, the change in nominal GDP is a lot more than just the real growth rate. It also includes the base economy, inflation, and the exchange rate.

 

[AgentOrange]

Still sadly those claims are not right. I guess you have access to a calculator(although the calculations are not that hard) and could very well verify as the numbers are directly in front of you. Just because a great man said it doesn't mean that you have you have to accept it blindly.

And if you love this China-centric article (even though the article spends equal time discussing BRIC which I guess you choose to ignore) so much then why are you glossing over the lines which talk about the prospects of India's economy which exactly say what I have been saying all along. India will have a sizeable economy in the near future and thus will command an audience at any international forum.

No one's denying that India will have a sizable economy and be an international presence in the future. What we're denying is your head-in-the-clouds proclamations of imminent Indian double digit growth and India "beating" China when all evidence points to the India/China economic gap widening in China's favor.

 

[NaMaloom]

And that 100$billion relation also helpful to US .That is not some kind of aid .It is a mutual trade relation.And they need our market.Think twice before post such a stupidity. US also need us.Us entire powerplay is based on their democratic advantage .Then how can they complete their objectives without world largest democracy on their side.

That was my point genius! The $100bil works both ways. I pointed that out because you said the Americans came to you, you didn't really care about them. Now that you realize its 'mutual', hopefully you can move on to learn some more fascinating stuff.

 

[SrNair]

That was my point genius! The $100bil works both ways. I pointed that out because you said the Americans came to you, you didn't really care about them. Now that you realize its 'mutual', hopefully you can move on to learn some more fascinating stuff.

And why did they push for trade relations with us ?Why cant they ignore our market ?Why are they trying to selltheir most modern equipments in here ?Why cant they do that in your nation ?
Answer mr genuis

 

[Echo_419]

No one's denying that India will have a sizable economy and be an international presence in the future. What we're denying is your head-in-the-clouds proclamations of imminent Indian double digit growth and India "beating" China when all evidence points to the India/China economic gap widening in China's favor.

agreed surpassing China's growth rate is imminent for India but surpassing China's economy is sadly a Pipe dream for now

 

[NaMaloom]

You yourself is proving of what i am saying...We have independent foreign policy...We voted against Iran because we don't want any nuclear state in our vicinity(we are not crazy like china)...yet we maintained decent relations with Iran...In fact we have voted agaisnt Israel as well...We have recently blocked WTO deal..we are at logger jams with US on environment deal and blah blah...In short wherever our interest is we follow it...don't you think this is what independent policy is??

I believe your definition of joining camps is flawed...that's why you are arguing over something which is like a writing on wall...Joining camps means siding with USA(one power center) at the cost of USSR(another power center)...getting engulfed into WOT which was against your national interests ...Joining camps means "No relations with Israel" as compared to your neighbour having relations with both Palestine and Israel...

I'm not going to waste my time on someone who doesn't understand the definition of 'joining camps' in terms of diplomacy himself and then starts accusing the other person based on that ignorance. If we go by your horrid definition of 'joining camps' implying a zero-sum game, then the example you gave regarding Pakistan not having relations with Israel is a terrible one. Pakistan's policy of no FORMAL diplomatic ties with Israel (there have been countless informal ties) is controlled by domestic politico-religious factors; not by some foreign country related 'camp'.

And your ASSUMPTION that Pakistan sided with the United States at the 'cost' of USSR which you present as evidence of Pakistan 'joining camps' is not worth the time you spent writing that paragraph. Pakistan and the USSR had ongoing diplomatic, economic, cultural relations even through some of the most testing times such as the Cold War, Afghan War, etc.

In practice, your definition of 'joining camps' as you have presented above holds no water.

Pakistan–Soviet Union relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now please, study up on some issues before making your next comment in a fit of rage.

Boss, don't change goal posts...if you think the driver is national interests then there is no point about fair/unfair....There is virtually nothing on the table that Pakistan can bring which will drive country like USA to get them NSG waiver....period!!

Sorry but bold part is plain stupid...Proliferation will not be allowed irrespective of NPT status...plain and simple...

Again, one can only wonder where the stupidity lies if someone cannot differentiate between a waiver and full formal membership and tries to use the two interchangeably. Pakistan is not talking about 'fair/unfair', its raising the issue of discriminatory actions of the NSG which only weaken itself and set a bad precedent. This is the same reason behind Pakistan's opposition to the Fissile Material Cut off Treaty. Do some research for once for all our sakes.

To become a FULL MEMBER of NSG, you need to sign the NPT. Plain and simple. And you cannot refute the fact Pakistan bears no criminal liability for any proliferation allegations since it is not a signatory to NPT, no matter how much you want to rant and whine about it to gain browny points to show India deserves some special treatment. I call that b.s. I do not have time to babysit.

Did i claim that Moist problem is resolved in India?? So are saying that your country's worst terrorist attack is a desperate measure? How would it sound if i say Indian establishment defeated Pak sponsored terrorism and the proof is Mumbai(a desperate attempt!!)....No i am not comparing the incidents...all i am saying that a countries worst terror attack can't be an indicator about success rate against terrorist...Also since when did terrorist start worrying about someone being unarmed/innocent?? They are called terrorist because they attack innocents..what's new in it?? The link below gives me a different picture then what you are suggesting...

Again, an attack on children shows desperation because children are by nature a weaker target than even an unarmed adult. Surely there must be some issues on your end if you can compare a child to a full grown man and think of them as equals. And if you think the terrorists don't use their brains to decide which target to attack based on their own capabilities or the lack thereof then that's a serious underestimation on your part.

The website you provided yourself only helped to backup my claim. According to PakistanBodyCount.org 2014 was the year with the lowest amount of suicide attacks in Pakistan and with the least amount of lives lost in such attacks since 2007 when TTP really took off the ground. And if we remove the roughly 60 dead in one single Wagah border attack incident from the 192 killed in all of 2014 suicide attacks per the website's analytics section, the remaining figure is much lower than even 2006 (161 killed) - before TTP came in to being.

Suicides & Drones Analytics | PakistanBodyCount.org

Thanks for the link, it clearly doesn't paint the picture you were trying to portray. On the contrary it destroys this point of yours completely.

You can't be more wrong on this...this average growth is a misnomer..2009-2014 era was very bad for us with virtually zero credibity of GOI and India being termed a lost story..

Comon yar...lets not discuss what is plain and simple...Ok let me ask...China didn't stop the waiver...question is why...what's your take..

Err, you don't have to like the average GDP growth figure as some kind of benchmark but its a pretty decent measure to give a broad picture of a country's performance. I do not see any evidence from you regarding GOI's 'zero credibility' and India being termed a 'lost story'. You are trying too hard unless you want to blame the entire world's 2008 financial crisis on GOI because you have some personal axe to grind against Congress and Manmohan Singh? Not cool.

I don't want to be rude however you made lot of noise even during NSG waiver...results are in front of us..and of-course things are not easy(even then and now) however given the clout US has we are confident things will fall in place...

Instead of getting into such low level one-lines why not counter what have been said?? Pakistan geo-political status is insignificant...and whatever leverage they have is in AF...

Any reason they didn't push forward Pakistan name for a similar NSG waiver which India got??

Again, Chinese diplomacy is not the same as American diplomacy. Just because the Americans arm-twisted and brow beat other countries to give India the waiver and in the process weaken NSG protocols, China isn't going to do the same. Two wrongs don't make a right. China instead chose to counter the waiver by ignoring the NSG and doing nuclear deals with Pakistan anyways and NSG responded by looking the other way because they had eroded their credibility and authority themselves already by granting India the waiver and had no moral standing to stop China from selling to Pakistan.

That being said, a 'waiver' and 'full membership' are two completely different things. When it comes to full membership, we can be rest assured China will veto Indian membership just as it did not let India's dreams of a permanent UNSC seat materialize.

Your posts have pretty much been reduced to errant rumblings and drivel. Many of your statements above are ones that people type when they're trying to finish off a comment/post quickly without giving much thought to what they're actually typing but still want to score browny points. Pretty sad.

 

[NaMaloom]

And why did they push for trade relations with us ?Why cant they ignore our market ?Why are they trying to selltheir most modern equipments in here ?Why cant they do that in your nation ? Answer mr genuis

So you're saying India didn't push for trade relations with the U.S? India didn't want modern equipment?

I already got my point across that its a two-way street. Your initial assertions that the U.S came running to India and India didn't go to the U.S was refuted by your own last comment in which you agreed that it is mutual. Enough said.

 

[deckingraj]

I can very much accuse of of same what you are doing to me..however i keep discussion to debate level and don't take them personally... As again will cut paras but will keep the context...

I'm not going to waste my time on someone who doesn't understand the definition of 'joining camps' in terms of diplomacy himself and then starts accusing the other person based on that ignorance.

Joining the camp means improving relations with one at the cost of other...if you think this is not what you did then good for you...however if it is just a matter of diplomatic relations then Jeez even US and USSR had diplomatic ties...so now are we going to call them natural allies or not an example of zero sum game?? Look India also went that slope and never recognized Israel...then we course corrected ourselves way back in 1991...and today relations with Israel have been very fruitful...we manged that without impacting relations with palestine and Arab world...can you claim the same?? Don't call it zero-sum game if is such an irritant for you..but atleast acknowledge the obvious..

Again, one can only wonder where the stupidity lies if someone cannot differentiate between a waiver and full formal membership and tries to use the two interchangeably.

Your refusal to accept what is being written amazes me!! Not once have i used waiver and membership interchangeably..so plz just don't imagine stuff...In fact i have acknowledged that getting mebership will be difficult like getting a waiver was...

Pakistan is not talking about 'fair/unfair', its raising the issue of discriminatory actions of the NSG which only weaken itself and set a bad precedent. This is the same reason behind Pakistan's opposition to the Fissile Material Cut off Treaty. Do some research for once for all our sakes.

Sorry but this is plain lie...Pakistan wanted a similar waiver to what was given to India....and all this talk of setting bad precendent is an eye wash...You were going on the right path earlier i.e. national interests..not sure why bringing this point now...we were following ours...Pakistan theirs...nobody gives 2 hoots about bad precendent and blah blah...this is all for consumption sake...

To become a FULL MEMBER of NSG, you need to sign the NPT. Plain and simple. And you cannot refute the fact Pakistan bears no criminal liability for any proliferation allegations since it is not a signatory to NPT, no matter how much you want to rant and whine about it to gain browny points to show India deserves some special treatment. I call that b.s. I do not have time to babysit.

Is there a real need for us to insult each other?? Doesn't that shows who is acting like a baby here??...Anyhow the bold part is crap....Let's try may be an example this time...Both of us were not signatories to NPT yet heavily santioned during our nuclear blasts in late 90's...plz tell me under what particular criminal liability was it done?? And now plz tell me how will that be different in proliferation case...I have clearly said in internation geo-politics "Might is Right"..so if US proliferate or today's China then nobody will make noise...You or I do it..we will be simply killed...

b/w Signatory to NPT was a pre-condition also for NPT members to trade with us yet we got it...Please tell me if i am wrong here..

Again, an attack on children shows desperation because children are by nature a weaker target than even an unarmed adult. Surely there must be some issues on your end if you can compare a child to a full grown man and think of them as equals. And if you think the terrorists don't use their brains to decide which target to attack based on their own capabilities or the lack thereof then that's a serious underestimation on your part.

During Mubai, handful of terrorist take down the entire city irrespective of the grown up count....TTP choose a school because they wanted to target kids...not because they were afraid of grown up unarmed mens or have been weakened by Pak offensive that they can't target unarmed grown ups...Now seraiouly is it that hard for us to crack??

The website you provided yourself only helped to backup my claim. Suicides & Drones Analytics | PakistanBodyCount.org..Thanks for the link, it clearly doesn't paint the picture you were trying to portray. On the contrary it destroys this point of yours completely.

That's why precisely i gave you Mumbai example...just because there is no serious attack on India post mumbai..it simply doesn't mean that we have defeated terrorism or on the verge of kicking them out...My intention of sharing the link was to show that throughtout this offensive Taliban has been striking and in fact have manged to hit highly secured(atleast supposed to be) military targets of yours...It is but obvious that when you take fight to terrorist they will get involved there...however given they have the capability to still strike with punity gives a clear reason for anyone with a unbiased mind to conclude that Pakistan is in for a long haul....

Err, you don't have to like the average GDP growth figure as some kind of benchmark but its a pretty decent measure to give a broad picture of a country's performance. I do not see any evidence from you regarding GOI's 'zero credibility' and India being termed a 'lost story'. You are trying too hard unless you want to blame the entire world's 2008 financial crisis on GOI because you have some personal axe to grind against Congress and Manmohan Singh? Not cool.

Now perhaps you are accusing me of being Anti-congress..Not cool ...Please look yourself

India GDP Annual Growth Rate | 1951-2015 | Data | Chart | Calendar

I would atleast know about my country that much, no?? Yes indeed 2008 finacial crisis hit everyone..however gloom continued for 6 years because of Retrospective tax, Mother of scams(Common wealth, 2G, Coal Allocations) and what not...On top of that weak leadership and decision paralysis..Why would anybody invest in India in such an environment...this is why 2009-2014 was very difficult phase for us...Look the seeds of Indo-US relations were actually sown by Clinton..Civilian nuclear deal was first floated by Vajpayee and finally nail in the coffin by Bush/MMS in 2005...However then came the liability clause pushed by Indian Parliament which a weak MMS couldn't do jack about..This complemented with India's lost economic momentum brought India-Us to a slippery slope...With a strong govt. in center things have started going back to where they were...

In short my original point is that "It's all in the economy"...Strategic equation viz-a-viz China was always there...yet 2009-2014 was an era where India-US relations were on a very steep slippery slope...

Again, Chinese diplomacy is not the same as American diplomacy. Just because the Americans arm-twisted and brow beat other countries to give India the waiver and in the process weaken NSG protocols, China isn't going to do the same. Two wrongs don't make a right. China instead chose to counter the waiver by ignoring the NSG and doing nuclear deals with Pakistan anyways and NSG responded by looking the other way because they had eroded their credibility and authority themselves already by granting India the waiver and had no moral standing to stop China from selling to Pakistan.

On one side you say two wrongs don't make it right...and they you say China started ignoring NSG and started providing reactors to Pakistan who like india is not a signatory to NPT...Honestly if NSG has lost credibility and China has anyways ignored it then what's the fuss about India joining NSG??

Fact is China can't push your case...No-one is going to agree to it...because your track record won't help and more importantly China doesn't enjoy the same clout that USA have...China didn't block our waiver because they didn't find any mileage in antagonizing India on that particular matter...China won't do things just to please Pakistan...This was a prime example of diplomatic victory for India..hope you can see it as well...

That being said, a 'waiver' and 'full membership' are two completely different things. When it comes to full membership, we can be rest assured China will veto Indian membership just as it did not let India's dreams of a permanent UNSC seat materialize.

This only time will tell...India's UNSC seat is a distant dream anyways because we want the veto power.leave aside China i believe no-one would like to give us that..so we are for a long haul there..however about China being the road-block you never know...

Will support India's UNSC bid, says China | Business Standard News

Your posts have pretty much been reduced to errant rumblings and drivel. Many of your statements above are ones that people type when they're trying to finish off a comment/post quickly without giving much thought to what they're actually typing but still want to score browny points. Pretty sad.

Ignoring!!

 

[T-Rex]

And got President's pardon immediately for the proliferation. The good doctor on record has indicted pakistani government of complicity....

If this doctor was not held guilty for treason because of his unilateral role in proliferation, then remind me why is the other doctor in prison.

You are not talking about your uncle sam's proliferation record.