China offers L-15 Falcon Trainer Aircraft to India

[AliFarooq]

New Delhi, Dec 7 (IANS) The Indian Air Force (IAF) has lost over Rs.160 million and 19 pilots in 17 crashes of its basic trainer aircraft HPT-32, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said Monday.
The entire fleet of the Hindustan Piston Trainer-32 aircraft has been grounded July 31 this year following successive engine failures.

“A total number of 17 HPT-32 aircraft have crashed till date and 19 pilots have lost their lives in these accidents. The total loss suffered as a result of these accidents amounts to Rs.16,21,35,054 (approx. Rs.162 million),” Antony told the Lok Sabha in a written reply.

On July 31 this year, an HPT-32 aircraft crashed at Annaram village in Jinnaram Mandal of Andhra Pradesh’s Medak district and both the instructors on board were killed in the accident. In May last year a woman cadet of the Air Force Academy at Hyderabad died in a crash. In this case, fuel had leaked into the engine, causing it to burst.

The basic propeller-driven trainer, with two side-by-side seats, suffered more than 70 incidents between 1988 and 1995.

Usually around 140-150 cadets of the flying branch are trained on the HPT-32 and then graduate to the intermediate flight and weapons training aircraft Surya Kiran.

However, with the initial trainer being grounded, cadets are now directly being trained on the Surya Kirans, affecting the training schedule of the pilots.

The defence minister said that the defence public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has started designing a new trainer.

“Preliminary design work on the turbo prop trainer aircraft has already commenced in the Aircraft Research and Design Centre of HAL,” said Antony.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

New Delhi, Dec 7 (IANS) The Indian Air Force (IAF) has lost over Rs.160 million and 19 pilots in 17 crashes of its basic trainer aircraft HPT-32, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said Monday.
The entire fleet of the Hindustan Piston Trainer-32 aircraft has been grounded July 31 this year following successive engine failures.

“A total number of 17 HPT-32 aircraft have crashed till date and 19 pilots have lost their lives in these accidents. The total loss suffered as a result of these accidents amounts to Rs.16,21,35,054 (approx. Rs.162 million),” Antony told the Lok Sabha in a written reply.

On July 31 this year, an HPT-32 aircraft crashed at Annaram village in Jinnaram Mandal of Andhra Pradesh’s Medak district and both the instructors on board were killed in the accident. In May last year a woman cadet of the Air Force Academy at Hyderabad died in a crash. In this case, fuel had leaked into the engine, causing it to burst.

The basic propeller-driven trainer, with two side-by-side seats, suffered more than 70 incidents between 1988 and 1995.

Usually around 140-150 cadets of the flying branch are trained on the HPT-32 and then graduate to the intermediate flight and weapons training aircraft Surya Kiran.

However, with the initial trainer being grounded, cadets are now directly being trained on the Surya Kirans, affecting the training schedule of the pilots.

The defence minister said that the defence public sector undertaking Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) has started designing a new trainer.

“Preliminary design work on the turbo prop trainer aircraft has already commenced in the Aircraft Research and Design Centre of HAL,” said Antony.

Please post something related to the topic.

@Tamaikhan - please intervene since you were not happy when Pakistan China relation was dragged into the thread.

 

[AliFarooq]

Please post something related to the topic.

@Tamaikhan - please intervene since you were not happy when Pakistan China relation was dragged into the thread.

india needs trainers and china offered them.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

india needs trainers and china offered them.

India needs trainer and its considering to build one..thanks for the news of so many Indian planes crashing.
Now the topic is - china offering training jets to India.

 

[Frankenstein]

Let me try developing a sentence by your logic...

You say They offered us Trainers becoz we do not have one, So they offered u Jf-17 becoz you do not have an Aircraft?? Wow, cool buddy... U are really In the upper crust of Logical reasoning

Nope genius it was a joint venture between Pakistan and china, and did i talked about JF17??, i was talking about J10B and yes we dont have such an aircraft,
here read it again pervert, i will suggest you to take extra english course to improve ur reading and understanding skills

Chinese offered you a trainer cuz you dont have one, while they offered us J10B and we are busy in developing AWE&Cs, so sit tight

 

[Windjammer]

Things must be desperate since Egypt earlier offered it's K-8s.

The Indian Air Force’s crisis in training its pilots saw a farcical twist recently when an Egyptian diplomat posted in India helpfully offered Cairo’s assistance. The Egyptian Air Force, he suggested to a senior IAF officer, could send a training team to Hyderabad, along with several of its trainer aircraft, the K-8 Karakorum. Was the Egyptian aware that the Karakorum trainer has been jointly developed by Pakistan and China? Nobody is certain but, since the offer was not followed up in writing, the Indian Air Force (IAF) was spared the embarrassment of having to reply.

Even as the IAF spends billions of dollars in a global shopping spree for fighters, helicopters and transport aircraft, the training of pilots to fly these has been practically stalled since last July. That was when the IAF’s notoriously unreliable basic trainer, the HPT-32 Deepak, was grounded after a horrific crash that killed two experienced pilots. In 17 Deepak crashes so far, 19 pilots have died.

The Deepak, as the IAF has long known, has two major design flaws. When it flies upside-down the flow of fuel gets blocked, shutting the engine; and, since the Deepak cannot glide without engine power for even a short distance, a serious crash in inevitable.

The IAF’s concern is evident from the radical methods it is exploring. It now proposes to fit each Deepak with an enormous parachute that opens when the engine shuts off, bringing down the aircraft slowly with the crew still in their seats. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), which manufactures the Deepak, is being asked to fit a number of trainers with this Ballistic Recovery System (BRS). It remains unclear whether the Deepak has the structural strength to support a BRS.

Meanwhile, improvisation governs training. After evaluating and ruling out several options — including training IAF flight cadets in civilian flying clubs; or handing over training to foreign contractors on a “Power by the Hour” payment basis — the IAF is now putting absolute rookies into the relatively complex, jet-engined Kiran Mark-1 aircraft for their very first taste of flying. The Kiran, too, has a dubious safety record, with 13 serious crashes over this last decade.

Before the Deepak was grounded, it took 80 hours of basic training on that aircraft before selected cadets — only those found fit to become fighter pilots — graduated to the Kiran Mark-1. The third stage of training was on the Kiran Mark-2; which the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) is gradually replacing. After those three stages of training, IAF pilots graduated to the frontline fighters that they would fly into battle.

“Conducting basic training on a jet aircraft is risky”, admitted a senior IAF decision-maker to Business Standard. “But what choice do we have? The air force must have pilots to fly its planes.”

In fact, the IAF has several good choices, but all of them are some time away. To replace the “Stage-1” Deepak trainer, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has approved the fast-track purchase of 75 aircraft from the global market. Requests for Proposals (RfPs) have gone out to 10 aircraft manufacturers. The hot contenders include the Pilatus PC-21 (Switzerland); Embraer Tucano (Brazil); and the Grob (Germany). Bids are due before April 14, but the aircraft will be delivered only by 2013-14.

For “Stage-2” training, that is, to replace the Kiran Mark-1, HAL is developing an Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT), the Sitara. The IAF is pleased with the prototype, and has ordered a limited series production of 12 aircraft. Eventually, the air force plans to buy 73 Sitaras, but it will take at least 3-4 years before it is available in the numbers needed for organised training.

Finally, for the “Stage-3” training, the Hawk should have been available in large enough numbers by now. But, production delays at HAL, accompanied by a blame-game between HAL and the Hawk’s vendor, BAE Systems, has meant that just 29 Hawks have entered service against the scheduled induction of 44 Hawks by now.

A much needed strategy for training IAF pilots has now become clear. Before the trainers to implement this plan are obtained, several years of makeshift training lie ahead for the air force.


Scrabbling for solutions

 

[karan.1970]

Again moving in circles.




India showed its unhappiness, but Pakistan wont do it. And that's the difference, if and only you can understand.


[/B]

Did your complain make any difference, in case of F-16s??? A BIG NO---- but you guys still tried. We don't know to what extent our complain will have affect in this case but we wont do it. Simply No.





Adios

I think this whole thing is any way a prank or misinformation, but I dont agree with your view on India trying to pressurize US etc.. Every country does it. US does it when it tries to coax India and Pakistan to not buy gas from Iran.. Didnt Pakistan successfully lobby to keep India out of Istambul talks. India (maybe) succeeded on the French deal.. May be not on F16s (still not delivered).

Its the way international politics is played. There is no shame in trying to weaken your adversary without firing a shot. Sometimes, it works, sometimes it doesnt...

 

[Frankenstein]

Is that what you are seeing???

Chinese offeredus so that they can do business and earn money...they are not giving us jets in donations after seeing we dont have trainers.... grow up..open your eyes !!

Let me try developing a sentence by your logic...

You say They offered us Trainers becoz we do not have one, So they offered u Jf-17 becoz you do not have an Aircraft?? Wow, cool buddy... U are really In the upper crust of Logical reasoning

Pakistan pays for everything by taking credit from the buyer, aka soft loan, then the relation can go only so far as the lender is willing to lend. Case in point China for F-22P and France for JF-17 Avionics.

All three of you are newbies over here and dont know anything, for people like you i have a one liner

Never argue an idiot he will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience

So i am not gona argue

 

[Mirza Jatt]

All three of you are newbies over here and dont know anything, for people like you i have a one liner

Never argue an idiot he will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience

So i am not gona argue

sir I salute you for your genius...how cleverly you ignored the reply posted at you...

according to you they offered us the jets because we dont have any trainer jets....

I agree with you cause I am a newbie here you see and I never knew that Indian pilots have been training on air balloons before flying planes like sukhoi and migs..thank you your highness..you have really proved your genius.

and what a punch line you said sir....amazing...
Never argue an idiot he will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience..
I will obey this and I'll not reply to you...

 

[karan.1970]

Well if they can do trade with you, if they can give you radars, provide critical components for so many devices which can be used in your defence forces, then why surprised by an offering of a jet trainer.

They even asked for joint collaboration for their COMPASS satellite navigation system, which you guys rejected.

So with all above, why surprised by just a trainer ?? It isn't some other fighter aircraft.

China must be feeling sympathy for IAF, as being its adversary its loosing its planes and pilots, so China may not want to see its adversary loosing its aircrafts, and wants them to be saved for a real war.

So don't get surprised, its not the first time China has offered something useful to you, it has happened and will happen again in future.

Trainers don't change the game, strategic weapon systems change the game, the day that happens, then come here on this forum and do the and post sarcastic comments regarding Pakistan & China relationship.

@TK

I kind of disagree to your comment on importance of a trainer. I believe it can play a very important difference in the strategic readiness of an airforce...

The bold part is not worthy of you...

 

[Frankenstein]

sir I salute you for your genius...how cleverly you ignored the reply posted at you...

according to you they offered us the jets because we dont have any trainer jets....

I agree with you cause I am a newbie here you see and I never knew that Indian pilots have been training on air balloons before flying planes like sukhoi and migs..thank you your highness..you have really proved your genius.

and what a punch line you said sir....amazing...
Never argue an idiot he will drag you down to his level and beat you with his experience..
I will obey this and I'll not reply to you...

Ohh god that one liner suits you more then i thought, did you even bothered to read my previous post which is 140th, offcourse not, here let me spoon feed you:

Nope genius it was a joint venture between Pakistan and china, and did i talked about JF17??, i was talking about J10B and yes we dont have such an aircraft,
here read it again pervert, i will suggest you to take extra english course to improve ur reading and understanding skills

Chinese offered you a trainer cuz you dont have one, while they offered us J10B and we are busy in developing AWE&Cs, so sit tight

 

[Lankan Ranger]

Manmohan & Hu review ties

Meeting on the sidelines of the BRIC summit here on Thursday, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and President Hu Jintao of China agreed to widen and deepen the scope of cooperation between their two countries, including in the areas of education, defence and trade.

Briefing reporters on the meeting, the spokesman of the Ministry of External Affairs said the two leaders also agreed to encourage their companies to invest in each other's countries and facilitate greater market access for each other's products.

They also spoke of the need to maintain even closer cooperation on international issues like climate change, the Doha round and terrorism.

Dr. Singh expressed his condolences for the victims of the Qinghai earthquake, the spokesman said.

The Hindu : Front Page : Manmohan, Hu review ties

 

[Sanchez]

I don't think that China is interested in helping Indians with defence matters. The news must have been fabricated to undermine Sino-Pak relationship.

 

[Mirza Jatt]

Ohh god that one liner suits you more then i thought, did you even bothered to read my previous post which is 140th, offcourse not, here let me spoon feed you:

oh! your highness did you reply to me...

post no 140th did u say ? where you are telling my indian friend that its j10B and not JF17??

and my reply was to your post where you were saying that India was given the trainer becauise India does not have any...

OMG..did I spoon feed you sir ?? mercy my lord !!

 

[Crypto]

Everything apart its amazing to see how Indians are not calling L-15 junk or crap anymore as they normally do with Chinese equipment. As soon as the news was published , everyone got excited and started praising Chinese tech - some couldn't believe they were offered L-15.

It is amazing to see how people change boats so quickly! and this thread proves deep inside everyone knows how good Chinese tech is compared to so called Ingenious programs making nothing but Junk.