China latest fighter engine is here, WS10TVC Thrust Vector Control turbofan engine official unveil

[Beast]

#1 is speculative, no proof, China could have linked the sale of the J-10C to only Chinese engines.

The JF-17 at the time had no Chinese alternative, hence Russian was the only option, so not the same today with WS-10B around.

As for the third, China has not much leverage with helicopters as Turkey is in the picture offering an alternative and PA could simply wait it out. Unlike fighter aircraft which Pakistan was essentially only left with Chinese options due to others being off the table, due to restricted access and/or funding issues.

Flaw explanation. PAF could have just call off the deal if J-10CE is only link with WS-10 engine. But they didn't. Nobody force PAF to get J-10CE and they could have go for more blk3 JF-17...

 

[beijingwalker]

Flaw explanation. PAF could have just call off the deal if J-10CE is only link with WS-10 engine. But they didn't. Nobody force PAF to get J-10CE and they could have go for more blk3 JF-17...

They have been arguing that Chinese engines are not "reliable". but couldn't provide data to back up their claim, totally BS.

 

[Beast]

More strawmans and sidetracking lmao, you really are a Chinese bot

No one denies that the J-10C/E uses the WS-10B engine. We all know it does. It's literally the reason we are having this discussion.

No one is discussing the leap or the greater capabilities the J-10 provides to the PAF. We are talking about Chinese engine quality in relation to western counterparts.

Does the CCP training program include strawman and sidetracking once logical responses are not possible?

Let me repeat:

You have no evidence to prove that Chinese engines are at the same level as western counterparts. The only thing we can confidently assume is that they are reliable and sufficient enough to be used across multiple platforms in large numbers across the PLAAF.

Knowing Pakistan's desperate position to upgrade it's capabilities but also having restrictions in accessing western aircraft and also funding due to a declining economy, it's entirely possible that J-10 was only offered with Chinese engines without the possibility of Russian alternatives, so they went with it.

You have no evidence to prove WS-10 engine is unreliable. WS-10 engine is not a new engine just enter service. It has seen service with PLAAF for at least 6-8 years and not a single PLAAF aircraft fitted with WS-10 engine crashed. There is no way to hide crash as in the days of internet where every Chinese has a smartphone and they can even upload faster than censorship can cut in.

@Deino is an expert in serial number of PLAAF aircraft in service. If u think I am bull, sure go ask him any PLAAF aircraft using domestic WS-10 engine has crashed.

Also PAF sure has done their assessment for J-10CE. Don't treat PAF as some blind fool who accept anything Chinese shove at them. It u who need to back your words with evidence.

 

[TheSolution]

Flaw explanation. PAF could have just call off the deal if J-10CE is only link with WS-10 engine. But they didn't. Nobody force PAF to get J-10CE and they could have go for more blk3 JF-17...

JF-17 has inherit limits due to the airframe size, it needed a slightly larger plane.

Pakistan obviously doesn't have access to most western fighter aircraft or cannot afford it due to economy, really only a J-10C option left... it's better than nothing and likely can meet the minimum requirements.

 

[beijingwalker]

JF-17 has inherit limits due to the airframe size, it needed a slightly larger plane.

Pakistan obviously doesn't have access to most western fighter aircraft or cannot afford it due to economy, really only a J-10C option left... it's better than nothing and likely can meet the minimum requirements.

Maybe , but this is another topic, doesn't prove that Chinese engines are unreliable

The WS-10 project was reportedly started by Deng Xiaoping in 1986

This engine had been developed and tested for almost 30 years and only largely fitted to Chinese planes in recent years, if China wasn't very meticulous about its reliability, they coulld've been installed decades ago.

 

[TheSolution]

You have no evidence to prove WS-10 engine is unreliable. WS-10 engine is not a new engine just enter service. It has seen service with PLAAF for at least 6-8 years and not a single PLAAF aircraft fitted with WS-10 engine crashed. There is no way to hide crash as in the days of internet where every Chinese has a smartphone and they can even upload faster than censorship can cut in.

@Deino is an expert in serial number of PLAAF aircraft in service. If u think I am bull, sure go ask him any PLAAF aircraft using domestic WS-10 engine has crashed.

Also PAF sure has done their assessment for J-10CE. Don't treat PAF as some blind fool who accept anything Chinese shove at them. It u who need to back your words with evidence.

Let me quote myself from that same thing you are responding to:

"The only thing we can confidently assume is that they are reliable and sufficient enough to be used across multiple platforms in large numbers across the PLAAF."

So you're wrong, I didn’t claim they are totally unreliable.

There's just no evidence indicating how good they are in relation to western or even Russian counterparts.

 

[Beast]

JF-17 has inherit limits due to the airframe size, it needed a slightly larger plane.

Pakistan obviously doesn't have access to most western fighter aircraft or cannot afford it due to economy, really only a J-10C option left... it's better than nothing and likely can meet the minimum requirements.

Do u have evidence? or u make it up?

Let me quote myself from that same thing you are responding to:

"The only thing we can confidently assume is that they are reliable and sufficient enough to be used across multiple platforms in large numbers across the PLAAF."

So you're wrong, I didn’t claim they are totally unreliable.

There's just no evidence indicating how good they are in relation to western or even Russian counterparts.

there is.. PAF choose WS-10 over AL-31FN.

 

[beijingwalker]

We are not your enemies but brothers. However just because we are your brothers does not mean we will accept anything you try to shove down our throats.

Where and what did I try to shove down your throats? this accusation is totally uncalled for, besides, friends don't make unfounded accusations, if you guys believe that Chinese engines are not reliable, you should provide proof, not just speculations based on your bias and stereotype.

 

[Beast]

Where and what did I try to shove down your throats? this accusation is totally uncalled for, besides, friends don't make unfounded accusations, if you guys believe that Chinese engines are not reliable, you should provided proof, not just speculations based on your biase and stereotype.

This @araz is a proven China hater. I have repeat clash with him over for unfounded accusation over China military. And his evidence is deprived from some unknown Pakistanis military personnel or twitter post by some tabloid or nobody...

And remember the stupid article about PN F-22P warship started by some idiots. Its is such a blunt false accusation against Chinese military industries, the moderator delete the fake thread. And we have the usual western bootlicking coconuts cheering at that thread and take it as some evidence against Chinese military hardware.

 

[etylo]

Let me quote myself from that same thing you are responding to:

"The only thing we can confidently assume is that they are reliable and sufficient enough to be used across multiple platforms in large numbers across the PLAAF."

So you're wrong, I didn’t claim they are totally unreliable.

There's just no evidence indicating how good they are in relation to western or even Russian counterparts.

If these Chinese engines are not better than the russian AL 31 FN, Chinese wont replace the russian engines in J 10 C with Chinese domestic ones on large scale, thats a simple logic.

Dicussions based on your pure paranoid specuations without any proof on Chinese J 10 CE export to pakistan is meaningless.

 

[beijingwalker]

"Unreliable" Chinese engines fly again in Zhuhai airshow, 4 unreliable engines together..what a heightened risk..

 

[CrazyZ]

Yes - China is making engines, but it is a stretch to say they are advanced or reliable given that this no information available on the service lives, mtbo etc ....

maybe they are advanced and reliable - maybe they are not - no one knows!

The latest Chinese commercial turbine blades were tested by European firms that were evaluating them for purchase. There were determined to be identical in performance to European made turbine blades. China has indeed narrowed the performance gap in its latest jet engines.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The fact that we have three pages arguing about this is baffling.

If the engines are no good, debating about it won't change the fact. If the engines are great, saying that they are junk won't change the fact either.

That said if WS-10 really is no good then it would be really baffling for PAF to acquire additional J-10C (if rumor is true) with the engine type, even amidst economic downturn. Seems like wasted money.

 

[MajesticPug]

No - that implication is incorrect - for all we know and quite probably - China is swapping out engines after only a few hundreds hours of usage for new engines compared to thousands you would expect from a western engine.

Saying there have been no crashes does not equate to reliability without knowing the service life, maintenance and MTBO intervals of the chinese engines.



PAF accepted the Fantan jets, whose airframe had to be stripped apart and put together again at under 200hrs of flying .... PAF accepts what it needs and accepts the constraints which come with the platform. Was the Fantan jet "advanced or reliable?" because PAF accepted them?

PAF will retire F7s before much older Mirage III/Vs will be retired. Does the induction of F7's makie them advanced and reliable aswell just because PAF accepted them?

PAF accepts what it needs and accepts the constraints which come with the platform.

PAF purchased J10CE's after waiting for many years for more F16s and finally concluding that the era of the F16 will come to an end in the PAF and that no new F16s will join the PAF ..

Chinese engines will only become adavanced and reliable when the "figures" for procurement costs, fuel consumption rates, thrust, service life, maintenance and MTBO intervals of the chinese engines are comparable to western engines.. China has not published these values for its engines - you have to wonder - why ???????? It is because they compare poorly with western engines otherwise the Chinese would be shouting about them from the roof tops now....

F16 is a washed up machine that can't handle 4.5 gen Rafale. It's still the most advanced, most capable jet if it's in Africa or S America.

 

[Beast]

The fact that we have three pages arguing about this is baffling.

If the engines are no good, debating about it won't change the fact. If the engines are great, saying that they are junk won't change the fact either.

That said if WS-10 really is no good then it would be really baffling for PAF to acquire additional J-10C (if rumor is true) with the engine type, even amidst economic downturn. Seems like wasted money.

These coconuts idiot lack common sense. All they can do is try create hate against China thru lies and misleading..