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China is stumbling hard at acquiring the high-tech chip companies it wants so badly

Just like Hitler did in Europe, Japan invaded China step by step to test western reaction. Japanese were encouraged when they realized the western countries couldn't do anything to their aggression moves, not even a trade sanction. Which everyone knows it should be done cause exporting strategic materials to an invader is equal to exporting killing. And trade sanction could really work cause Japan itself doesn't have enough oil or steel to sustain the war.

Four years later after the war broke out, USA finally started the trade sanction. It's not because USA suddenly had mercy to China, but USA realized Japan was actually becoming a big threat to itself.

That's your excuse to blame anyone but the Japanese.

The Japanese aggression in Asia have started long before 1939, but long before where some historian trace it back to 1904 after the Russo-Japanese war, and the national 10 years building scheme. Which with the sole aims to expand the Imperial Japanese Navy, and subsequently Japan started occupying Germany Far East Colony during WW1

Officially, the US started Sanctioning Japan after Japan pull out of Washington Naval Treaty, unlike Germany, Japan was in the allies side in WW1, which mean there are pretty much nothing they can do because the "initial aggression" is what the Allies ask the Japanese to do. And it wasn't because allied would not do anything, but both France and Britain was reeling from the damage in WW1 and was not In a position to do anything.
 
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@WebMaster @Horus @Slav Defence @waz @The Eagle @ahojunk
Please check out how this 2 so-called professionals has been trolling with off topic China bashing to derail this thread and its not like only this one but plenty of others Chinese related threads, especially those China, Chinese being the 1st to accomplished something, this @jhungary will never miss the chance to turn it into a VS this and that or by comparing "apples to oranges"to derail and belittle such threads
Thanks for your kind attentions due to this matter in advance
 
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First of all, Civility should be maintained during conversation even if there is any off-topic post etc. A critic point of view, highlighting few areas per knowledge, should be taken as points to ponder and debate. If an OP discussed the V/s or showing comparison then it becomes the part of debate that any member can share his/her knowledge w.r.t. point of interest. If any post that actually derails, divert or going off-topic intentionally; need to be reported without quoting back or engaging to discuss same material as two wrongs wouldn't make one right.

As per my observation and knowledge, if an example is quoted for the ease and better understanding of others during conversation, is not to be treated as derailing as sometimes ethics of sharing warrants to quote a reference. However, on other hand, diverting the topic from real subject to whole lot of new story with intention to derail, is to be treated as an offense hence, action.

Regards,
 
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COMMERCIAL/TRADE SECRETS

If the world need to single out any one country as the dirtiest one in stealing secrets from other countries, then that culprit is no other than the USA.

- NSA - EDWARD SNOWDEN - THE INTERCEPT

NSA is spying/tapping the whole world using various means. They also exploit the commercial/trade secrets from the victim nations for benefits of the Wall Street Mega Companies.

Just search, dig, read on The Intercept!

Some links there:

The NSA Leak Is Real, Snowden Documents Confirm
https://theintercept.com/2016/08/19/the-nsa-was-hacked-snowden-documents-confirm/

Japan Made Secret Deals With the NSA That Expanded Global Surveillance
https://theintercept.com/2017/04/24...with-the-nsa-that-expand-global-surveillance/

Top-Secret Snowden Document Reveals What the NSA Knew About Previous Russian Hacking
https://theintercept.com/2016/12/29...-the-nsa-knew-about-previous-russian-hacking/


Above links are just sampling, search for more links using these keywords: "NSA Edward Snowden theintercept.com"


- HOW THE CIA MADE GOOGLE - INVESTIGATIVE REPORT (Long article!)

Google styles itself as a friendly, funky, user-friendly tech firm that rose to prominence through a combination of skill, luck, and genuine innovation. This is true. But it is a mere fragment of the story. In reality, Google is a smokescreen behind which lurks the US military-industrial complex.

In 1999, the CIA created its own venture capital investment firm, In-Q-Tel, to fund promising start-ups that might create technologies useful for intelligence agencies. But the inspiration for In-Q-Tel came earlier, when the Pentagon set up its own private sector outfit.

Known as the ‘Highlands Forum,’ this private network has operated as a bridge between the Pentagon and powerful American elites outside the military since the mid-1990s. Despite changes in civilian administrations, the network around the Highlands Forum has become increasingly successful in dominating US defense policy.

http://tiny.cc/amazing-story-onguugle

Google also steals lots of commercial/trade secrets from the victim countries, read on the Investigative Report!


TALKING ABOUT INGENUITY

The USA ain't the saint, its hands are dirtier than any other nation!

- Operation Paperclip

Operation Paperclip was a secret program of the Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA) in which more than 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians, such as Wernher von Braun and his V-2 rocket team, were recruited in post-Nazi Germany and taken to the U.S. for government employment, at the end of World War II; many were members and some were leaders of the Nazi Party.

*Much of the information surrounding Operation Paperclip is still classified.
http://www.operationpaperclip.info/index.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip


- Father of the US space program: Wernher von Braun

Von Kármán wrote of Tsien, "At the age of 36, he was an undisputed genius whose work was providing an enormous impetus to advances in high-speed aerodynamics and jet propulsion."[11] Furthermore, the American journal Aviation Week & Space Technology named Qian its Person of the Year in 2007, and commented on his interrogation of Wernher von Braun, "No one then knew that the father of the future U.S. space program was being quizzed by the father of the future Chinese space program."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen
 
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if it isn't for the US “stumbling hard” in the first place at 2008 financial crisis you wouldn’t see so many chinese firms lining up to buy these american companies

semiconductor may be a sensitive industry but other than that people have little idea how many high tech US small businesses we have acquired since 2008. just the other day I went to Nufoce’s website to look for a driver update only to find out they have become a sub brand under a chinese company called Optoma...(which I never heard of..)
 
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if it isn't for the US “stumbling hard” in the first place at 2008 financial crisis you wouldn’t see so many chinese firms lining up to buy these american companies

semiconductor may be a sensitive industry but other than that people have little idea how many high tech US small businesses we have acquired since 2008. just the other day I went to Nufoce’s website to look for a driver update only to find out they have become a sub brand under a chinese company called Optoma...(which I never heard of..)

Gotta love predator capitalism that has little nationality. Especially when there is no other options but either to go bust or be capital injected by a foreign buyer, what else can they do?

Nonetheless, these are good precedents to act on national interest if a similar situation arises for China.
 
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if it isn't for the US “stumbling hard” in the first place at 2008 financial crisis you wouldn’t see so many chinese firms lining up to buy these american companies

semiconductor may be a sensitive industry but other than that people have little idea how many high tech US small businesses we have acquired since 2008. just the other day I went to Nufoce’s website to look for a driver update only to find out they have become a sub brand under a chinese company called Optoma...(which I never heard of..)
Kid, you do not know what you are talking about.

When the words 'high tech' or just 'tech' are used, it is vague enough to give the gullible certain impression. But when the word 'semiconductor' is used, you are talking about a specific industry with specific product lines.

In semiconductor manufacturing, there is something call 'deprocessing'...

http://www.ial-fa.com/blog/semiconductor-failure-analysis-deprocessing-modern-devices

While the above example mentions 'failure analysis', product deprocessing means buying a competitor's product, usually the latest and greatest, and take it apart to see how it works and hopefully to have educated guesses on how that product was designed and constructed. Secondary importance is to see if the competition is using your designs and this is where IP protection comes into play, but that is for a different debate. All semicon companies uses deprocessing methodologies. They uses it on their own products as well as on competitors' products.

What this mean is that all Chinese semicon companies know the details of US, JPNese, and SKReans products. Down to the individual substrate layers. Once a new product is available for engineering samples, everybody has it and begin taking it apart. What this also means is that once your new product is available for engineering samples to potential customers, and that your competitors got their hands on your new product and begins their own deprocessing methods, you are at best two yrs ahead of the competition. But more like one yr. That is how fast companies work on their competitors' products.

However, deprocessing can only get you so far. You WILL know the design, materials, and probably the construction recipes. But what you will not have are the finer points of the manufacturing steps that are unique from product to product, from fab to fab, and even down to chemical suppliers.

This is why it is always better to acquire the entire semicon company rather than try to figure out why their products works while yours, despite your best efforts at deprocessing, consistently fails. You may guess that a certain material was vapor deposited, but you cannot guess precisely at what voltage, temperature, or even if the oven chamber's design had any influence. And that is why your copy failed while your competitor's version sells profitably.

So just because you use the words 'high tech', it is meaningless to people like me who have semicon manufacturing experience, and I even have experience in taking apart competitors' products. The most important are recipes and manufacturing processes, not final products.
 
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China has a huge population.Iirrigation,agricultural,infrastructure facilities,basic industry,environmental,basic health protection,etc.this is our achievement,not bad.we can slowly get up.No problem
 
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30years ago,China did not have private enterprises.many still in the stage of capital accumulation so far.of course,it is just one reason,government will always lead policy bias.
 
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Meanwhile, in a quiet corner of China, they are probably working to perfect nano-scale etching processes even as we type. Keep putting restrictions on China, and they will only keep working harder. Already, industrial manufacturing is planned to be off-loaded to Pakistan, allowing core Chinese companies to concentrate on hi-tech research.
I will say this gently...You do not know what you are talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probe_card

I work in the 'Probe Engineering' dept of a semicon manufacturing company that shall remain nameless. But I will say that I am directly involved in Intel's new 3D CrossPoint NVM product line. By 'directly involved', I mean every wafer has to virtually stop by my desk before it is shipped. I review the functional testing data, via the probe card above, and with proprietary software tools, I say 'nay' or 'yea' for each wafer. Then the shipping dept takes over. That is the overall view.

It literally takes months, around 1/4 to 1/3 of the yr, from wafer start, as in bare silicon wafer, to reach my dept, as in the wafer has fully formed dies ( chips ). Any manufacturing error along the way, assuming the error is detected, will have the wafer, or an entire lot ( batch ) of wafers, scrapped, as in literally toss into the trash barrel.

If the error is human caused, then the next wafer start will have no changes in the manufacturing process. But if the error is not human caused, as in design deficiencies or recipe flaws or equipment inadequacies or many other factors, then the next wafer start must reflect those corrections, so now we are looking at 1/2 of the yr from wafer start to my dept.

If the error is not detected during the manufacturing process and finally detected at the functional testing stage in the Probe dept, then that part of the yr is essentially wasted. Testing may result in zero yield or partial yields of shippable dies per wafer. But no matter which, money is lost.

In all this time, the competition is moving forward while my company struggles to make corrections. They could be making a die size reduction, aka 'shrink', of an existing design, or they could be making a new product line. Using NVM NAND as example, a 64gb die shrink is not a new product line, but a 128gb capacity die is a new product line. Then the whole improvement process starts all over, shrinking that 128gb die.

In semiconductor, if you are consistently one yr behind, you will NEVER be an innovator. All you will be doing is mass manufacturing of established products. That is what most semicon fabs in mainland China are: contract foundry fabs.

Because of the time involved, China must make acquisition of semicon companies top national priority. Defense cannot rely on imports forever. Whatever semicon products that China can produce at home, as long as those products are technologically behind the West, defense will be behind the West. That is just one example of how semicon affects the nation.

When I used to work for Micron and was working to set up the Micron facility in Shanghai, I was warned of the Chinese propensity for accepting 'good enough' standards, in other words, easily satisfied. This is not racism. This is a carryover from the communist days where the entire culture was suppressed of its creativity. Managers had no to little incentives to produce top quality products of anything since everything of the economy was centrally planned and the bureaucrats were supposedly 'all knowing' and 'all wise'. This mentality permeated every communist country when they existed back in the Cold War days.

We, not just Micron people, had to work extra hard to break Chinese supervisors and managers of that 'good enough' mentality. If the minimum wafer shippable yield is %30, the Chinese were satisfied with that. As long as they meet the wafer shippable weekly quota, everyone, from the production line workers to the top facility executives, were satisfied. We had to tell them the difference between wafer shippable and per wafer yield figures, how they relate to each other, and how each affects the overall financial health of the facility. We had to stress, and there were a lot of hard feelings and terminations, that meeting the per wafer minimum yield is not enough.

We had to show them how and why, that extracting as many functional dies as possible per wafer eventually lower per die cost over the long run, making the facility more cost effective quarter by quarter. Most of the managers never had such financial tools, let alone the necessary business finance education, to be managers, and they were appointed via Party connections so we had to live and work with what we had. Sometimes feelings got so hard that literally physical fights almost broke out. In those instances, we quickly sent our guys home, like the next available flight in the afternoon or even the 'red eye' evening flight, lest national bias and Party power got involved and an American gets jailed.

Here is the kicker -- our Micron people in Taiwan never had such problems. The Taiwanese culture was completely different. If we say the standard is X, they will work hard to meet X and often they will meet expectations within one or two wafer start cycle. If our equipment support supervisor say torque to X, the Taiwanese equipment support tech will get the torque wrench, make sure its calibration is up to date, and use it to meet X. The Chinese tech would have used his elbow's feeling. As a former Air Force guy, I cringe at the idea that a Chinese pilot is flying his jet whose bolts were tightened by someone's elbow's feeling.

Praise China all you want and get all the 'Thanks' you can get from the Chinese in this forum. But I know better.

What I shake my head is how humanity is bring held back by the parochial attitude of Americans.
That is hilarious considering the Soviets and China with their practice of communism was the real hold back of humanity's progress.
 
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I will say this gently...You do not know what you are talking about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probe_card

I work in the 'Probe Engineering' dept of a semicon manufacturing company that shall remain nameless. But I will say that I am directly involved in Intel's new 3D CrossPoint NVM product line. By 'directly involved', I mean every wafer has to virtually stop by my desk before it is shipped. I review the functional testing data, via the probe card above, and with proprietary software tools, I say 'nay' or 'yea' for each wafer. Then the shipping dept takes over. That is the overall view.

It literally takes months, around 1/4 to 1/3 of the yr, from wafer start, as in bare silicon wafer, to reach my dept, as in the wafer has fully formed dies ( chips ). Any manufacturing error along the way, assuming the error is detected, will have the wafer, or an entire lot ( batch ) of wafers, scrapped, as in literally toss into the trash barrel.

If the error is human caused, then the next wafer start will have no changes in the manufacturing process. But if the error is not human caused, as in design deficiencies or recipe flaws or equipment inadequacies or many other factors, then the next wafer start must reflect those corrections, so now we are looking at 1/2 of the yr from wafer start to my dept.

If the error is not detected during the manufacturing process and finally detected at the functional testing stage in the Probe dept, then that part of the yr is essentially wasted. Testing may result in zero yield or partial yields of shippable dies per wafer. But no matter which, money is lost.

In all this time, the competition is moving forward while my company struggles to make corrections. They could be making a die size reduction, aka 'shrink', of an existing design, or they could be making a new product line. Using NVM NAND as example, a 64gb die shrink is not a new product line, but a 128gb capacity die is a new product line. Then the whole improvement process starts all over, shrinking that 128gb die.

In semiconductor, if you are consistently one yr behind, you will NEVER be an innovator. All you will be doing is mass manufacturing of established products. That is what most semicon fabs in mainland China are: contract foundry fabs.

Because of the time involved, China must make acquisition of semicon companies top national priority. Defense cannot rely on imports forever. Whatever semicon products that China can produce at home, as long as those products are technologically behind the West, defense will be behind the West. That is just one example of how semicon affects the nation.

When I used to work for Micron and was working to set up the Micron facility in Shanghai, I was warned of the Chinese propensity for accepting 'good enough' standards, in other words, easily satisfied. This is not racism. This is a carryover from the communist days where the entire culture was suppressed of its creativity. Managers had no to little incentives to produce top quality products of anything since everything of the economy was centrally planned and the bureaucrats were supposedly 'all knowing' and 'all wise'. This mentality permeated every communist country when they existed back in the Cold War days.

We, not just Micron people, had to work extra hard to break Chinese supervisors and managers of that 'good enough' mentality. If the minimum wafer shippable yield is %30, the Chinese were satisfied with that. As long as they meet the wafer shippable weekly quota, everyone, from the production line workers to the top facility executives, were satisfied. We had to tell them the difference between wafer shippable and per wafer yield figures, how they relate to each other, and how each affects the overall financial health of the facility. We had to stress, and there were a lot of hard feelings and terminations, that meeting the per wafer minimum yield is not enough.

We had to show them how and why, that extracting as many functional dies as possible per wafer eventually lower per die cost over the long run, making the facility more cost effective quarter by quarter. Most of the managers never had such financial tools, let alone the necessary business finance education, to be managers, and they were appointed via Party connections so we had to live and work with what we had. Sometimes feelings got so hard that literally physical fights almost broke out. In those instances, we quickly sent our guys home, like the next available flight in the afternoon or even the 'red eye' evening flight, lest national bias and Party power got involved and an American gets jailed.

Here is the kicker -- our Micron people in Taiwan never had such problems. The Taiwanese culture was completely different. If we say the standard is X, they will work hard to meet X and often they will meet expectations within one or two wafer start cycle. If our equipment support supervisor say torque to X, the Taiwanese equipment support tech will get the torque wrench, make sure its calibration is up to date, and use it to meet X. The Chinese tech would have used his elbow's feeling. As a former Air Force guy, I cringe at the idea that a Chinese pilot is flying his jet whose bolts were tightened by someone's elbow's feeling.

Praise China all you want and get all the 'Thanks' you can get from the Chinese in this forum. But I know better.


That is hilarious considering the Soviets and China with their practice of communism was the real hold back of humanity's progress.

First of all, thank you as usual for sharing such deep insight. But I distinctly find an element of living in the past here. Here is a key insight a Chinese friend shared with me. Since millennia, the Chinese have considered the rest of the world as barbaric savages. But she says, in the young generation, the realization is dawning that actually we (Chinese) are the savages to consider the rest of the world beneath us. China is going through a big change and old adages of Communist era do not necessarily apply. They want to be on top of the world, they will do everything needed to get there. If you want to underestimate them, by all means go ahead.

The concern regarding American politicians holding retrogressive views has been raised elsewhere

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/nasa-china-collaboration-illegal-2015-10?r=US&IR=T
 
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World fastest computer all made in China
China has quantum sattelite unhackable

loongson.chipx299.jpg


Made in China right here folks

China makes every thing now !!! You name it and they make it
 
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First of all, thank you as usual for sharing such deep insight.
Yer welcome. Just another item in the technical fields that your Chinese friends will never be able to give and be honest about it. :enjoy:

But I distinctly find an element of living in the past here.
Nonsense. :lol:

In engineering, we cannot afford to 'live in the past', another vague and usually meaningless pithy saying. But what am talking about has to do with dealing with the consequences of the past, and consequences are inevitable. You can force an inanimate object to do whatever you want at any time, but you cannot make a cultural change overnight, over a year, or even over a decade. For any cultural change, you need a new generation of people and China is still changing, not yet complete that transition. Corruption is still widespread at all levels of governance and corporations.

All the achievements that your Chinese friends boasts about here ? They are the exceptions, not the rule. The proverbial 'old guards' are still in influential positions of power in government and corporations. They change only if there are personal benefits involved, not because they feel anything for China as an ideal. That idealism belongs to the young and even though that change is happening, China still has a long way to go, pal.

But to return to semiconductor...

I do not support any sale of any US semicon company to any Chinese interests. And yes, I do believe it is our national interests to block such sale. Why should I care about China's national interests, other than to make them disadvantageous to the US ? You think any country is any different when it comes to their national interests ? You think I care if China is continuously behind US ? Do not talk to me about cooperation for humanity's sake. I can argue at the same level of abstraction that since China was committed to communism, an evil form of governance, why should we cooperate with any country that is willing to do such political harm to humanity in general ?

If China cannot acquire any tier-one semicon company, Western or Asian, China must work to develop her own indigenous semicon industry. That means government subsidies no matter what. Successes or failures must be taxpayer supported. Only thru trials and errors can any pure Chinese semicon company become intellectually independent and on the path to become a genuine innovator. Right now, China is NOT intellectually independent. Charge me with being a 'racist' all you want. It will not do away with the reality that China's semicon industry still needs foreign assist at every level. But then the problem of corruption remains. As long as taxpayers' money -- an apparently endless source of wealth -- are involved, taking a little bit here and a little bit there, who is going to miss those 'little bit', eh ?
 
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