China hesitant over J-10C barter deal with cash-strapped Iran

[Muhammed45]

J-10C is more capable than F-15-16 of your adversaries. It always beaten SU-35 in exercise.
Besides, what else alternative do you have for a very capable fighter?

Purchasing of SU-30 beside locally developed fighter jets.
I don't say J10 is inferior, it doesn't meet our requirement. Plus it doesn't add any edge against our adversaries. At best its on par with new blocks of F16, that's not what we want. We need a heavy Multi role fighter such as SU30SM and an stealth platform currently under development and when the national turbofan engine is prepared, Iran will unveil its turbofan powered stealth fighter jet.

 

[T-SaGe]

Wait I thought Iran was building a 5th generation fighter since 2010? why they need chinese 4th generation jets?

Didn't it made first flight yet? Maybe, China can support more effectively this type works instead of selling ready-made platforms.

 

[Hack-Hook]

That thing ain't gonna go too far man. Nations working to replace that jet. Can you really put BVRs, AESA radars and other such tech on those??

if we manage to sort the engine problem yes if not the it won't matter

 

[Hack-Hook]

Purchasing of SU-30 beside locally developed fighter jets.
I don't say J10 is inferior, it doesn't meet our requirement. Plus it doesn't add any edge against our adversaries. At best its on par with new blocks of F16, that's not what we want. We need a heavy Multi role fighter such as SU30SM and an stealth platform currently under development and when the national turbofan engine is prepared, Iran will unveil its turbofan powered stealth fighter jet.

SU-30 is side step from our F-14 when it come to Air to Air combat (in fact it maybe somehow a down-step) so I doubt our air-force accept it and they are the one who must say yes so such deal can proceed

 

[TheImmortal]

And here is where the problem is, which you keep conveniently ignoring. Oil deals use international market prices as a base line to negotiate new deals, with how oil is right now, China would 100% be getting ripped off.

It didn’t take long for your post to become childish. Clearly you are out of your comfort zone and short handed.

Which “international oil prices”. You keep making up crap you have never had experience with. Have you even traded oil futures before? I have.

So which International oil prices are you talking about? Most prices that you hear in news is West Texas (WTI) or Brent Crude (Russia), but there are MANY prices out there.

Why would Iran use WTI price when Iranian crude is substantially different from WTI? Iranian crude is based on demand from countries that have refineries to process it vs refineries built to process Saudi Oil vs Venezuela oil vs Brent vs WTI.

And how would China “be getting ripped off”? If WTI is trading around $60 right now that is within range since 2017 when it has traded around $50 up to $70.

The brief plummet in oil prices on Q1 and Q2 of 2020 was due to once a century panademic event and oil traders who were heavily shorting oil beyond reason. This caused price to plummet far below actual demand price. Once the dust settled WTI naturally rose back to its range.

Note: I quote WTI for simplicity of argument.

Average price of WTI

2021*	57.79
2020	39.16
2019	56.99
2018	64.94
2017	50.88

So now using WTI as a barometer for oil prices for arguments sake, China would not be “getting ripped off”. If China wanted 2020 prices well that was due to a global shutdown and heavily shorted oil contracts by equity traders who were taking advantage of the economic situation to make $$$. And China actually would be getting a deal since Iranian crude is at a discount due to sanctions and less demand vs the more demand blends of crude out there on the market.

Again you continue sprouting off your erroneous OPINION without any facts to back you.

Saying that China needs 3B in cash to paid its reserves when it pays that amount to Iran literally every month is hilarious. Now if the arms deal was for 50B or 100B, you could make the argument that China doesn’t want to barter for such a large amount. But 3B? That’s a joke. South Korea has 8B in oil dues owed to Iran from last shipments alone.

 

[TOTUU]

Purchasing of SU-30 beside locally developed fighter jets.
I don't say J10 is inferior, it doesn't meet our requirement. Plus it doesn't add any edge against our adversaries. At best its on par with new blocks of F16, that's not what we want. We need a heavy Multi role fighter such as SU30SM and an stealth platform currently under development and when the national turbofan engine is prepared, Iran will unveil its turbofan powered stealth fighter jet.

SU-30 is side step from our F-14 when it come to Air to Air combat (in fact it maybe somehow a down-step) so I doubt our air-force accept it and they are the one who must say yes so such deal can proceed

According to Chinese fighter pilots, the J-10C fighter is on the same level as the J-16 fighter in air combat. J-16 fighter is a generation ahead of Su-30, except for the airframe, which is the same, all the other is the new generation of technology.
Personally, I think the J-10 as a single-engine fighter is not really suitable for the needs of the Iranian Air Force, and its short range is not suitable for ground bombing. F-14‘s avionics is too old to adapt to modern air combat and is weaker than even the Su30 .
The J-16 is perhaps the most suitable fighter for Iran, with advanced avionics and large range, but unfortunately no license to sell it.

 

[Hack-Hook]

According to Chinese fighter pilots, the J-10C fighter is on the same level as the J-16 fighter in air combat. The J-16 fighter is equivalent to a generation ahead of the Su-30 fighter, except for the airframe, which is the same, all the other is the new generation of technology.
Personally, I think the J-10 as a single-engine fighter is not really suitable for the needs of the Iranian Air Force, and its short range is not suitable for ground bombing. F-14‘s avionics is too old to adapt to modern air combat and is weaker than even the Su30 .
The J-16 is perhaps the most suitable fighter for Iran, with advanced avionics and large range, but unfortunately no license to sell it.

If Im not wrong china cant sell any airplane based on Russian designs . about the radar not exactly unless its Irbis-E

 

[Globenim]

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3129539/china-hesitant-over-j-10c-barter-deal-cash-strapped-iran

Officially Hong Kong but defacto Washington based South China Morning Post is not a legitimate and reliable source on anything related to China. It doesnt just mainly only echo American and British state propaganda against China on its platform, but frequently shows extremely anti Chinese bias and blatant pandering to US/British hegemony in its own reporting and typically reports against the interest of the country.

Especially that notorious liar "Minnie Chan" who is responsible for making up many fake stories, quotemining to make up narratives like this article and giving platform to baseless bad rumors about Chinas military to spoonfeed the Western state propanada mouthpieces that personally trained and employed many of the writers working for South China Morning Post that arent already based in Washington.

They rarely ever quote any of their "insider" sources either because they usually either say something completely different or dont even exist.

US$175 million for a MiG-35 Eurofighter Typhoon

Theres even the usual ridiculous stuff like this I hope I dont have to explain this or tagging the price of the J-10C at ridiculous US$65 Million while comparing it to lowest estimated factory prices of US products. This just sounds like a desperate attempt to cope with China signing a deal with Teheran and add some smears about China having no interest to trade in Yuan like US American shills love to do.

 

[Saifullah]

Iran should (MUST) go for JF17 before going for anything else. The priority of Iran should be to create a rock solid Backbone. The range is extremely good and it's extremely good aircraft for attack based defence or pure defence. Iran can also ask for JF17-3NG sort of aircraft based on WS19, Chinese will be extremely willing to work with you on that and iran will have insurances from Pakistan as well. This aircraft should be the baseline and Iran should develop an extensive Air Defence Alert Command and Control System which is fully integrated. Train the hell out with this system for few years and when 5th generation aircrafts are mature enough than go for them.

Iran could have following line up:

LIFT ~ Koswar
Light/Medium ~ JF17
Medium/Heavy ~ J31/J35 Class
Heavy ~ J20 Class

 

[Globenim]

Worst analysis I have seen on this forum.

That notoric troll is just spouting ridiculous and unintelligent rethoric bullshit that suit his usual simpleton narratives i.e. that China is cashstrapped which fits into the usual China on the verge of collapse and therefore China bad/wrong picture.

The reality is that over the last year China simply bought and shipped more oil than most people can imagine and China could store when prices where rock bottom. Its pretty much common knowledge outside of Americas disinfo bubble, so Im not going to bother doing his homework. Thats where the comments about China not exactly hungering for oil taken out of context in the US state propaganda article come from. Its not about general lack of interest in Irans discount oil prices. Infact that has never ceased beyond US regime intervention. Not this typically disingenious leap of logic that China is low or in dire need of cash and denial of Chinas economic rebound because it wasnt covering up and prolonging countermeasures against Covid like the failure that is the US regime.

Obviously theres also the angle of denying Chinas energy security that comes with China sitting on massive reserves while paid US government shills are still running around suggesting that Chinas economy is collapsing because of made up energy shortages to fabricate a counter narrative to belittle and cope with Chinas retaliatory sanctions againsts hostile Australian elements hurting exactly the right peoples bum they are supposed to be.

 

[zectech]

If Im not wrong china cant sell any airplane based on Russian designs . about the radar not exactly unless its Irbis-E

Can China sell 24 of her old Russian SU-27s (no IP theft in the sale, selling old equipment) and do a ToT on Chinese engines for Iranian flanker development.

Let the Iranians do what Iranians do and build something better. Since the flanker fits the needs of Iran.

Belarus and Ukraine sold some of their SU-27s that ended up with the USA.

If putin would block that sale of SU-27s from China to Iran, you can tell clearly whose side putin is on (on the side of the neocons who run Moscow).

putin not making an exception for "ally" Iran, shows how evil putin is. putin is a bush/netanyahu puppet.

China must never rely on "ally" Russia. Russia is controlled opposition. Nothing more.

 

[TOTUU]

Can China sell 24 of her old Russian SU-27s (no IP theft in the sale, selling old equipment) and do a ToT on Chinese engines for Iranian flanker development.

Let the Iranians do what Iranians do and build something better. Since the flanker fits the needs of Iran.

Belarus and Ukraine sold some of their SU-27s that ended up with the USA.

If putin would block that sale of SU-27s from China to Iran, you can tell clearly whose side putin is on (on the side of the neocons who run Moscow).

putin not making an exception for "ally" Iran, shows how evil putin is. putin is a bush/netanyahu puppet.

China must never rely on "ally" Russia. Russia is controlled opposition. Nothing more.

I think it is not possible. The airframes of these aircraft are old, the avionics are old, so there is no need to buy them. If it is some country that still uses MiG 21, maybe can buy .

Russia has a lot of Su-27s. they can sell them themselves.

China also does not have a license to sell J-16 . Meanwhile the J-16 fighter is very aggressive and will change the regional balance, it has many variants with different functions .
infact Su35 is very suitable for Iran's needs, long range, strong air combat, can deal with Saudi Arabia's F-15 .
The jf-17 can meet the needs of Iran's defense too , its avionics and radar are modernized, it has a low unit cost, low usage costs, and can be equipped in larger numbers for the same budget.

But the jf-17 does not meet Iran's psychological and political needs .These two needs are the most important factors for all country .

 

[khansaheeb]

If Iran wants it, (a big if since Iran generally isn’t interested in Chinese fighters) then China refusal to provide a MERE 36 fighters should be a wake up call to those on this board who advocate for closer China ties.

No matter how many times they get slapped by Russia or China in arms deals they won’t learn.

Hey, shouldn't you be busy helping your comrades packing up in Kabul. You Americans should shut the fu(k up , it's a fine mess you have got Pakistan and the region into.

Wait I thought Iran was building a 5th generation fighter since 2010? why they need chinese 4th generation jets?

Like the Tejas it sees the jet is going to roll around on the ground for a long time.

 

[applesauce]

i dont think this new is credible.

That said, its understandable that china wouldn't want oil for jets.
chinese strategic reserves are filled,they've purchased a lot during 2020 while it was cheap.
you don't want to be locked in to any one supplier at a locked-in price for normal usage unless said supplier is proven to be reliable and even then, future price changes may make it unprofitable.

and thats the second issue, iran is not a natural ally to china, in fact iran was very much anti-china, the relationship then and currently is one of business and convenience which makes it strange when people say china should do this and do that for the sake of the relationship, like i dont recalled that china owes iran anything, deals where both profit are good, deals that china does not profit from are not good nor accepted.

3rd. china needs to consider its other relationships in the middle east, the saudis are a major supplier to china. and the israelis are also partners, even though they are firmly in the american camp, israel have gone behind washington(much to their annoyance) and worked/provided tech on a whole host of technologies for money. with that in mind, what benefits does china get for providing jets that aren't even paid for with cash while keeping in mind it'll make its other partners uneasy?

 

[Muhammed45]

Russia has a lot of Su-27s. they can sell them themselves.

That's true sir. They suggested it but Iran refused almost 3 years ago. Currently airforce is on second priority based on Iranian military doctrine which considers missile power as its top priority. Why J10 doesn't meet Iranian requirement is because of the fact that they have short range and to have a good punch with J10, you need at least 250 of them, something between 250 to 400 at maximum. Iran is not China to have such a Deep Pocket, we cannot afford it.
Therefor given Iranian doctrine, airforce plays defensive role. In fact we want them as a defensive layer which covers most of our coastlines along Persian Gulf. A fighter that can easily patrol Persian Gulf without needing refueling for multiple times. A fighter in the class of J16 and SU30. These capable fighters do have an eyecatching anti ground capability and given the license conditions of J16, the only available option is SU30 and that with TOT. Iran would refuse even SU30s without TOT and the defense ministry has already announced it. The plan is buying 3 to 5 squadrons directly from Russia and manufacturing similar number of them locally. Otherwise, without TOT, Iran better to spend that money on homemade platforms. It just needs time and we are capable of doing that.