CHINA ENCIRCLING INDIA

[Awesome]

Always wanted to do this. It's not so hard is it?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I agree with you in principle.

But then why Indians alone?

Other also have the same opportunities too.

Why Sunita Willaims and Kalpana Chawla?

I am sure there would be Pakistani and other immigrants too!

That is what perplexes!

There were two issues I was responding to.

The first relates to the argument that if someone of X country does something in Z country, then X country has something to brag about. On the contrary, the bragging rights are entirely those of Z country, that managed to lure the individual over and provide him/her with the institutional and resource support necessary to accomplish great things.

The second, which is what I take your question to relate to, is that nationality, race, religion, ethnicity plays no role in achievement - as seen by the the extremely diverse group of achievers the world over.

Are you ignoring the presence of academics, scientists, engineers, entrepreneurs, surgeons from other ethnicities? What are they, if not achievers?

How many times does the wheel have to be invented? Why not an Indian to claim the honors for the Theory of Relativity? Takes but one.

Your perplexity is for naught.

 

[saracen]

Can anyone honestly see an intelligent conclusion or end to this Pakistan v India debate - or rather flame? Having followed so many of similar flames in various forums, certainly I don't.

If we are discussing one country versus another in terms of SUCCESS then it must be understood that the word success is a relative term, and should only be discussed as such - more on it follows later.

Being a school governor, our governing body measures our school’s success based on the ‘absolute pupil achievement' as well as 'value addition', amongst other factors such as socio-economic makeup of pupils etc. Therefore, I would suggest that perhaps we could apply the same ‘value addition’ model for Pakistan v India comparisons too. However, in absolute terms it is very clear that India is an order of magnitude larger country than Pakistan, so in this respect, a fairer Indian comparison would be with China rather than Pakistan.

In 'value addition' terms, we must baseline what Pakistan started off with in 1947, compared to India. It is well documented that the parts of united India that later became Pakistan, were predominantly agricultural and feudal regions, devoid of much industrial base, with Lahore & Karachi being isolated exceptions. The little pre-partition industry and commerce that the region (now Pakistan) had was also dominated by Hindu / Sikh ownership or expertise, that was lost with unfortunate fear based population migration in 1947. Then, the portion of funds and defence equipment that was attributed as Pakistan's share (or fair share) was allegedly not transferred to Pakistan after partition. The democratic institutions, great universities, etc. etc. were in India and not in Pakistan. I am told that in 1947 there were even steel mills, aircraft and motor car assembly / manufacturing plants in India, whereas Pakistan did not even have motor bike assembly facilities then. Where as India inherited fully functional state bank, civil secretariat and other well oiled and functional administrative infrastructure, Pakistan had none - every thing had to be created from scratch. I am told that in 1947, the Pakistani civil servants did not basic things like chairs / desks and even paper clips in some departments, and thorns were used to staple papers together!! Where as India inherited a fully functional democracy, Pakistan's power brokers, the feudal land lords, by nature of their power base, never let proper democracy establish its roots - the army had its own -ve role. I can go on and on and on illustrating the dire state that Pakistan was in August 1947. It is alleged, that the senior Indian politicians sincerely believed that Pakistan would not survive even for a few months, and would request some sort of re-union with India.

Therefore, merely surviving under the aforementioned difficult circumstances, followed by surviving first Kashmir war with a handful of Dakotas etc. etc. was Pakistan's 1st huge achievement and success. Then, successfully defending a 7 times bigger foe in 1965 war was another. I would put 1971 war down to Pakistan's self inflicted (civil war) defeat rather than Indian victory.

It just gets better from then on, culminating in a situation where, in over 50 years Pakistan had added enough value to its humble beginnings to a point where:

1. defence wise, a 10 times bigger power just can not even think of threatening it militarily - unless M.A.D is intended.
   
2. Economically and industrially huge strides have been made in the last 7-8 years, thereby Pakistan becoming one of the fastest growing economies in the world.
   
3. Pakistan now has ship / sub marine, armour and aircraft manufacturing industries. And, to catch up technically, work on world class universities is in progress ‘on war footing’ - 9 new world class science & technology universities are to open in next 2 years alone .... And a huge fast paced programme has started to provide vocational skills for millions to meet the needs of a fast expanding economy
   
4. With President Musharraf at the helm and a new democratically elected government due in a few months, If FDI continued to rise at the rate that it has been for the past couple of years , growth, exports and FOREX reserves are expected to sky rocket, projected to matching India’s Per Capita figures in medium term. And what a colossal +ve effect would ‘energy & trade corridor’ to China and the central Asia (via Gwadar) would have in the medium to long term is beyond imagination.

Thus, we have briefly looked at the amount of value that was added by Pakistan over the past 60 years, while starting with such humble beginning in 1947. What would the next 25 years be like, given the strong position that Pakistan finds itself in 2007!

Now let us see where China was in 1949 (gaining independence 2 years after India) - a war torn poor country. Quick glance at all Chinese contemporary indicators tell us the unprecedented value that China also managed to add to its humble start in 1949. With China being India’s peer, in size terms, their ‘absolute success’ can also be compared, and we can see that there is absolutely no comparison between the two.
I feel that where as Pakistan could have done even better, nevertheless, every Pakistani should hold his / her head high with the knowledge that we have added a lot more value to our country since 1947, compared with all our neighbours, except China.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Can anyone honestly see an intelligent conclusion or end to this Pakistan v India debate - or rather flame? Having followed so many of similar flames in various forums, certainly I don't.

Totally true.

If we are discussing one country versus another in terms of SUCCESS then it must be understood that the word success is a relative term, and should only be discussed as such - more on it follows later.

Being a school governor, our governing body measures our school’s success based on the ‘absolute pupil achievement' as well as 'value addition', amongst other factors such as socio-economic makeup of pupils etc. Therefore, I would suggest that perhaps we could apply the same ‘value addition’ model for Pakistan v India comparisons too. However, in absolute terms it is very clear that India is an order of magnitude larger country than Pakistan, so in this respect, a fairer Indian comparison would be with China rather than Pakistan.

Comparing India vs China maybe closer, but the same problem of the India vs Pakistan would also arise. There, thus, can never be a parity of inputs for a true comparison.

In 'value addition' terms, we must baseline what Pakistan started off with in 1947, compared to India. It is well documented that the parts of united India that later became Pakistan, were predominantly agricultural and feudal regions, devoid of much industrial base, with Lahore & Karachi being isolated exceptions. The little pre-partition industry and commerce that the region (now Pakistan) had was also dominated by Hindu / Sikh ownership or expertise, that was lost with unfortunate fear based population migration in 1947. Then, the portion of funds and defence equipment that was attributed as Pakistan's share (or fair share) was allegedly not transferred to Pakistan after partition. The democratic institutions, great universities, etc. etc. were in India and not in Pakistan. I am told that in 1947 there were even steel mills, aircraft and motor car assembly / manufacturing plants in India, whereas Pakistan did not even have motor bike assembly facilities then. Where as India inherited fully functional state bank, civil secretariat and other well oiled and functional administrative infrastructure, Pakistan had none - every thing had to be created from scratch. I am told that in 1947, the Pakistani civil servants did not basic things like chairs / desks and even paper clips in some departments, and thorns were used to staple papers together!! Where as India inherited a fully functional democracy, Pakistan's power brokers, the feudal land lords, by nature of their power base, never let proper democracy establish its roots - the army had its own -ve role. I can go on and on and on illustrating the dire state that Pakistan was in August 1947. It is alleged, that the senior Indian politicians sincerely believed that Pakistan would not survive even for a few months, and would request some sort of re-union with India.

That the parts of India which went to make Pakistan were backward in all respect, as you are stating, is indicative of the mindset prevailing at that time. I presume that most of what went to make West Pakistan was feudal in characteristics, wherein it stifled the growth of the individuals and their ingenuity to progress in real world terms. This phenomenon is self created and cannot be held as a lament to justify the problem.

Now, if one compares the people of the area that became West Pakistan to the Mohajir, it is does substantiate that the feudal character is what made the area poor in the areas that you have mentioned. The contribution of the Mohajirs to break this feudal stranglehold and revamp it into a viable country cannot be downplayed. The Army, staffed by the original inhabitants of the areas that went to make West Pakistan, obviously did not appreciate the usurping of power by the Mohajirs, who were more educated and more emancipated.

It is not India which alone inherited a fully functioning democracy, Pakistan also did. India went the democratic way, while Pakistan, for a variety of reasons, flitted from democracy to military rule and so on.

I wonder if the Indian politicians thought that Pakistan would not survive even for a few months. That is, to my mind, merely a sop by commentators to cover deficiencies that are other unexplainable.

Therefore, merely surviving under the aforementioned difficult circumstances, followed by surviving first Kashmir war with a handful of Dakotas etc. etc. was Pakistan's 1st huge achievement and success. Then, successfully defending a 7 times bigger foe in 1965 war was another. I would put 1971 war down to Pakistan's self inflicted (civil war) defeat rather than Indian victory.

The 1965 War had been started by Pakistan with its initial success in Kutch and with Op Gibraltar. I have posted on this forum and article by a Pakistani military writer to this effect.

1971 was indeed self inflicted as has also been brought out by General Musharraf in his book.

It just gets better from then on, culminating in a situation where, in over 50 years Pakistan had added enough value to its humble beginnings to a point where:


There is no doubt that Pakistan is much better in all respect excepting the aspect of democracy than 1947.

I am sure it will get better as the years go by.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That the parts of India which went to make Pakistan were backward in all respect, as you are stating, is indicative of the mindset prevailing at that time. I presume that most of what went to make West Pakistan was feudal in characteristics, wherein it stifled the growth of the individuals and their ingenuity to progress in real world terms. This phenomenon is self created and cannot be held as a lament to justify the problem.

Thats an interesting argument. Though, it could be argued that the inherent problem of feudalism in the regions comprising Pakistan were not all "self created" - the British had an interest in cultivating a class of people who would tow the line and keep the natives in check, and how better to do that than empower the feudal.

Post independence however, this same system has been blamed by a lot of commentators for the lack of institutional development and other social evils that bedevil our society. For that Pakistan has no one to blame but itself.

P.S: End of Off topic posts from me.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

It is not my opinion it is the opinion expressed by learned people including those of Pakistan and I think I have posted the authority from where I learned of this.

We have all fallen prey to the British Machiavellian ways.

It is our fault and not theirs!

 

[withthequicknes]

Yeah please do that.



Selfrespect my foot! Japan has been the only country that got its *** hit by a nuke and yet they worship the same country who did it. Germany forget how there asss was kicked in WW2 and the country was divided in two parts east and west hitler was forced to kill himself and to this day the countries nukes are in US hands. This you call selfrespect suck it up then, we are much better then that. Australia, ahhh a country still under the influence of the queen one can see it from there flag. Canada you are mistaken about it since canadians dont like US at one bit there only problem is that they have to rely on US for there defence and so is SouthKorea....... if this is what you call self respect, well we are much better then that and one more thing if we hadnt built nuclear, we would have been in the same league since you have forgotten pakistan ruled this option out and again in 1998 when they wanted us not to test the weapon, we did it. This is self respect.
One more thing you ran out under the pressure of uncle Sam in the IPI project, we are still in and we will go forward with it nomatter what happens.

And how in the bloody hell do you know this? Dude, I was born and raised in Canada, I would know how Canadians feel about US more than you ever will. You can only wish you had ever seen or lived in Canada. So stop talking about stuff you have no idea about. We Canadians love and respect the US, heck our countries have open borders, and there is noone in our country that actually hates Americans (except maybe the muslims that are living in Canada)

 

[lepziboy]

woah reviving a 4 year old thread

 

[StormShadow]

Did we run out of topics to fight? Why reviving a dead thread and again start D1ck measuring contest?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Rhetoric,unnecessary at that.