CHINA ENCIRCLING INDIA

[Bull]

OOE, i adore your patience! Cheers.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Tools of superpowers? What exactly is India becoming now? A tool of the United States being given some toys to counter the rise of a power that is threatening to challange the might of the US of A. Also, don't forget that your citizens steal jobs from Americans because someone in Delhi does for $2 what an American would do for $20. It's not because these Indian men and women have some magical ability that no one else in the world does. It's because India is a poor country where some young people can be taught English and made to work for cheap. Unlike Indians, Pakistani's are realistic.

India, by the Grace of God, has not been a tool of any power! It has never given a single base to any foreign power unlike Pakistan, where US troops still operate including the CIA.

Pakistan has always had US forces on it soil (Remember the U2 flights and Gary Power?)and even now as the reports below states:

New US base agreements have also been concluded with Pakistan and two other former Soviet republics, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.
US bases pave the way for long-term intervention in Central Asia

Since September 11, the United States has set up military bases housing sixty thousand troops in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan, along with Kuwait, Qatar, Turkey, and Bulgaria.
Monthly Review March 2002 The Editors

I am afraid the US has not given any military equipment to India. On the other hand, Pakistan is flooded with US war materiel, including such largesse being given of late.

India does not 'steal' jobs from the US. It is just that India has the expertise and the US companies are using the same. I am sure if Pakistan had better expertise, the US would not hesitate to take it from Pakistan. Unfortunately, as it seems, Pakistan does not have the expertise. On the 'stealing' issue, I would not be surprised if you stated that China is stealing the US industry from the US just because they produce cheaper goods and are flooding the US and the international markets. Please discuss with logic.

Some poor people are not taught English in India alone. It is a second language for ages. From your statement, it appears that it is a case of sour grapes or indeed English is not taught in Pakistan. You should be the judge as to what is the factual position.

There is nothing magical about Indians. It is mere expertise and apparently to you it appears as magic!

We know we cannot challange large powers on our own. We have no illusions of becoming a superpower when so many of our citizens struggle to make ends meet everyday. We realize that China will become a superpower soon, and it has been our best friend ever since it was born. Both Pakistan and China can benefit from a friendly relationship. China has an ally to counter US moves in the middle east and South Asia, while Pakistan has a powerful (more so by the day) ally which will help propell it towards prosperity.

Good that you have no illusions. It is only when someone has the capability to do something does that someone think of achievable goals.

I fail see to see how Pakistan will propel China to prosperity. Should it not be the other way around? That is, China propelling Pakistan to prosperity. USA tried.

China, in no way, is countering the US in the ME. If she did, then the situation would be different. She is quite pragmatic and is shorn of emotions and instead, is full of realistic political calculations!

The reason we are so pleased to see China progress is because we know that means progress for Pakistan as well. The stronger China is, the stronger Pakistan is. Chahiye dunya idhar say udhar ho jaye, Pakistan's friendship with China will never cease. The same cannot be said for India's relationship with Russia or the USA.

One must to hang on to another's coattails for one's own success. Or gloat about it with unmitigated glee! One should be self sufficient and independent. To be in someone's penumbra and claim that it is the sole symbol of success and power is but a sign of weakness. Rather embarrassing, if you will!

If Pakistan is China's tool, China is Pakistan's tool as well.

That is an unique statement indeed!

 

[solid snake]

Well we are not Pakistan. You expect every country to be as spineless as yours, you expect every country has rulers that would bend over to US to get their opposition exiled or send to jail or be over thrown or killed. What you fail to see is that there is only one country like that and thats yours, one and only Pakistan.

India signs a one-sided nuclear deal. India backs out of Iran pipeline deal. Sounds pretty spineless to me. Pakistan has not 'bent over' to anyone in it's history. Every time we have supported the Americans, it was because that was the right thing to do in terms of Pakistan's security (USSR capturing Afghanistan would have been a disaster) and economy (9/11 sure as hell been a good thing for Pakistan). We have never been in a one-sided relationship. Pakistan has always extracted the maxiumum amount of benefit from a relationship with the US while having to give very little in return.

The opposition that has been exiled signed a ten year deal, and is being made to honor it. The other opposition leader is sitting in London because she is scared of facing trial for her years of corruption in office.

Do you want me to start laying down India's problems and tell you how there is only one country in the world like yours?

Which toys?

The offer of selling latest fighter jets, and talk of expanding military ties.

Yes very true, we are a poor country and we learned how to make those 2 dollars and not waste one's life by wearing a belt and blowing up.

Thank the Afghans for the suicide bombers.

So u decided to go and blow up in their tubes and buses.

Actions of a few cannot be attributed to hunderds of millions of people. To compare the actions of individual terrorists to the country of Pakistan and it's people is ridiculous. You sound like a nazi redneck.

China could have helped you during the wars we fought by opening a second front. Did they? Why was China silent during Kargil? Where was china when you wre cut into two?

Russia had made it clear it would enter on behalf of India, therefore China did not help by opening a 'second front'. Kargil was not a war, it was just a more intense period of shelling and firing relative to what is a normal day in Kashmir's mountains.

So after having a distastefull nightout with US, now you want to try China out?

We have been trying out China since 1949 and they've come through every time.

Pakistan is china's tool. Bother explaining?

Dictionary.com defines the word tool as: anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose.

Pakistan uses China more than China uses Pakistan. Therefore, China is Pakistan's tool

 

[solid snake]

India, by the Grace of God, has not been a tool of any power! It has never given a single base to any foreign power unlike Pakistan, where US troops still operate including the CIA.

Pakistan has always had US forces on it soil (Remember the U2 flights and Gary Power?)and even now as the reports below states:

Pakistan is an important US ally. Of course there are US bases in our country, the US has a war going on in the neighboring country. The US also has bases in the UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Kuwait, Italy etc. I suppose all these countries are tools too? Only America's stronget allies host US forces, and Pakistan is one of them. Immediately after 9/11 India was jumping up and down like a 5th grade nerd with his hand up because he knows the answer and wants the teacher to ask him. India offered it's bases to the US while hoping Pakistan would not host them. Indian media was profoundly jealous of the attention Pakistan recieved during 2001/2002.

I am afraid the US has not given any military equipment to India. On the other hand, Pakistan is flooded with US war materiel, including such largesse being given of late.

Yes, but all that is about to change very soon. Pakistan is gravitating away from US military equipment while India is moving towrads it. So according to Indian logic, this means India is about to become America's ***** in the region.

India does not 'steal' jobs from the US. It is just that India has the expertise and the US companies are using the same. I am sure if Pakistan had better expertise, the US would not hesitate to take it from Pakistan. Unfortunately, as it seems, Pakistan does not have the expertise. On the 'stealing' issue, I would not be surprised if you stated that China is stealing the US industry from the US just because they produce cheaper goods and are flooding the US and the international markets. Please discuss with logic.

Once again, learning the various reasons a program crashes isn't rocket science. Anyone can learn that in a week. India is being used for call centers because there are large amounts of workers that can be taught to speak English (can't seem to get rid of that annoying accent though).

Some poor people are not taught English in India alone. It is a second language for ages. From your statement, it appears that it is a case of sour grapes or indeed English is not taught in Pakistan. You should be the judge as to what is the factual position.

Actually, India gets these companies because young people speak English and because India is seen as a (relatively) stable country. Pakistan has been going through turbulent times since the last decade, and IT companies do not want to risk investing there.

And I would advise you not to take too much pride in the English language skills of Indians. Talk to an American about the Indian tech support guy and it will break your heart to know what they think of your countrmen/women's crazy eloquence skills. Or you could ask them about Apu from The Simpsons.

Good that you have no illusions. It is only when someone has the capability to do something does that someone think of achievable goals.

Do me a favor. Step outside and look around. How many people do you see in 1 street anywhere in India? How will India become a superpower when there's all these people and millions more every year? Compare your country's per capita income to that of the USA. Then compare your per capita income to China's, but also take into account the population growth rate. Math is a good thing to believe in

I fail see to see how Pakistan will propel China to prosperity. Should it not be the other way around? That is, China propelling Pakistan to prosperity. USA tried.

I said China will help propel Pakistan towards prosperity. USA will help (since it's the largest trading partner of Pakistan).

China, in no way, is countering the US in the ME. If she did, then the situation would be different. She is quite pragmatic and is shorn of emotions and instead, is full of realistic political calculations!

You think so?

One must to hang on to another's coattails for one's own success. Or gloat about it with unmitigated glee! One should be self sufficient and independent. To be in someone's penumbra and claim that it is the sole symbol of success and power is but a sign of weakness. Rather embarrassing, if you will!

India is no more self-sufficient than Pakistan is. Maybe if ya'll realized that the LCA and Arjun wouldn't be such embarrassments and would have been in service by now.

No country in the world is 'self-sufficient'.

That is an unique statement indeed!

That's because it's the truth

 

[Flintlock]

Pakistan is an important US ally. Of course there are US bases in our country, the US has a war going on in the neighboring country. The US also has bases in the UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Kuwait, Italy etc. I suppose all these countries are tools too? Only America's stronget allies host US forces, and Pakistan is one of them. Immediately after 9/11 India was jumping up and down like a 5th grade nerd with his hand up because he knows the answer and wants the teacher to ask him. India offered it's bases to the US while hoping Pakistan would not host them. Indian media was profoundly jealous of the attention Pakistan recieved during 2001/2002.

When did India offer bases to the US? Don't remember hearing anything about that!!

Dunno about media being jealous, but we all know the reasons why US was wooing Mushy during that period!!

Yes, but all that is about to change very soon. Pakistan is gravitating away from US military equipment while India is moving towrads it. So according to Indian logic, this means India is about to become America's ***** in the region.

If you think India is moving towards US as the major supplier instead of russia, you are mistaken my friend. India is moving towards becoming a major manufacturer of military tech herself, and in the future will not depend on any othe countries for equipment!!

We've already made a world-class tank and a thoroughly modern fighter jet!! The future can only get better my friend!!

Once again, learning the various reasons a program crashes isn't rocket science. Anyone can learn that in a week. India is being used for call centers because there are large amounts of workers that can be taught to speak English (can't seem to get rid of that annoying accent though).

Yes the call centres started it all, but if you think that India has just call centers and nothing else you are mistaken!!
Maybe you should take some time going through the Indian economy thread on this website!!

Actually, India gets these companies because young people speak English and because India is seen as a (relatively) stable country. Pakistan has been going through turbulent times since the last decade, and IT companies do not want to risk investing there.

India also has talent my friend!! Indians were responsible for the US IT boom in the 90s!!
There are a lot of talented Indians who are excelling in diverse fields right now, as you must have gotten to know by now.

And I would advise you not to take too much pride in the English language skills of Indians. Talk to an American about the Indian tech support guy and it will break your heart to know what they think of your countrmen/women's crazy eloquence skills. Or you could ask them about Apu from The Simpsons.

HAHA!! Really...you learn about Indians from APU...now isn't that like learning about americans from....lets see....Homer Simpson??

Tech support guys always get abused...poor souls...and the arrogance of the Americans makes it even worse!!

Do me a favor. Step outside and look around. How many people do you see in 1 street anywhere in India? How will India become a superpower when there's all these people and millions more every year? Compare your country's per capita income to that of the USA. Then compare your per capita income to China's, but also take into account the population growth rate. Math is a good thing to believe in

Growth rates can work wonders in short periods of time, I hear!!

India is no more self-sufficient than Pakistan is. Maybe if ya'll realized that the LCA and Arjun wouldn't be such embarrassments and would have been in service by now.

Embarrassments?? Au contraire my friend, they are significant achievements and well worth the painstaking effort put into them!!

Even good old efficient China took a good 35-40 years to get mature enough to start producing the J-10s!!
Wait and watch....the LCA is just the beginning!!

 

[solid snake]

When did India offer bases to the US? Don't remember hearing anything about that!!

washingtonpost.com

Dunno about media being jealous, but we all know the reasons why US was wooing Mushy during that period!!

Yes, we do. Pakistan cashed in! *cha-ching! $$$*

If you think India is moving towards US as the major supplier instead of russia, you are mistaken my friend. India is moving towards becoming a major manufacturer of military tech herself, and in the future will not depend on any othe countries for equipment!!

Sure, whatever makes you happy.

Yes the call centres started it all, but if you think that India has just call centers and nothing else you are mistaken!!
Maybe you should take some time going through the Indian economy thread on this website!!

There's a lot of Indian students where I live. 99.9% of them are studying computer engineering. I know India's IT industry is strong. But this industry alone cannot make India a superpower.

HAHA!! Really...you learn about Indians from APU...now isn't that like learning about americans from....lets see....Homer Simpson??

Well, that statement was just a joke, but Homer is pretty close to what an actual American guy is like

Growth rates can work wonders in short periods of time, I hear!!

Let me put it this way: The probability of India catching up to the USA or China is the same as you being able to succesfully divide a positive number by 0.

 

[Flintlock]

washingtonpost.com

Welll....thank goodness that didn't materalize!! OOFF ...think of the commie and opposition reaction
if they had actually announced it to the public!! I'm sure the government would have fallen!!

Yes, we do. Pakistan cashed in! *cha-ching! $$$*

AHA!! Gotcha!! So when Pakistan literally sits on the American's backs and goes for a ride, its "Cashing in" and when India simply agrees to buy nuclear tech (which even China did btw...now are they becoming US puppets??), its "selling out" and "licking boots" and what not!!

Sure, whatever makes you happy.

No NO...this isn't mere wishes and speculation!! It is steadily becoming a reality. India is already manufacturing heavy warships and aircraft carriers, and planes. We are cooperating with Israel to get access to the newest methods and technology. In addition, private players are coming into the fray like Mahindra, L&T, TATA and others....

There's a lot of Indian students where I live. 99.9% of them are studying computer engineering. I know India's IT industry is strong. But this industry alone cannot make India a superpower.

....which is why we are diversifying. Guess who is had designed the original pentium chip..an Indian!!

Indian manufacturing is catching up to China very fast!!

http://http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iA6mvVzSOF-uWsbqL1QYw4T6-2EA

that statement was just a joke, but Homer is pretty close to what an actual American guy is like

Lol...not at all..not at all....I'm living here in Chicago...and trust me...Americans are the smartest buggers on the planet!! Of course...there are stupid people in every country, and America has its fair share!!

Let me put it this way: The probability of India catching up to the USA or China is the same as you being able to succesfully divide a positive number by 0.

Ah well...being Pakistani you've got vested interests and what not....

I for one am very optimistic!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

....which is why we are diversifying. Guess who is had designed the original pentium chip..an Indian!!

A slight digression from the topic,

The "ethnicity" or "race" of the individual inventing XYZ is not important- thats not very far from bragging about racial superiority. What does make a difference are the institutions ans systems in place that allow for for individuals to succeed and achieve. The pentium chip was a success of the US system to harness and nurture talent from across the world, as well as its success at creating institutions, private and public, that brought about that achievement.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Pakistan is an important US ally. Of course there are US bases in our country, the US has a war going on in the neighboring country. The US also has bases in the UK, Germany, Japan, South Korea, Kuwait, Italy etc. I suppose all these countries are tools too? Only America's stronget allies host US forces, and Pakistan is one of them. Immediately after 9/11 India was jumping up and down like a 5th grade nerd with his hand up because he knows the answer and wants the teacher to ask him. India offered it's bases to the US while hoping Pakistan would not host them. Indian media was profoundly jealous of the attention Pakistan recieved during 2001/2002.

India has never offered any bases to any country.

The Washington Post convenient finds it clever to not differentiate between a base and an overflight and refuelling facilities.

Base has a totally different connotation. For instance if a warship is extended fuelling and victualling facilities, it is not a base, but a transit facility.

No one is jealous of Pakistan getting attention from the US. Pakistan has always been a satellite of the US right from the CENTO and SEATO days. It has been equipped by the US and so how can anyone be jealous of the obvious?

Pakistan tried to break away from the US stranglehold by wooing China and it succeed to some extent. However, with that nation nearly being declared a failed state and the economy scarping the barrel bottom, it was the wise decision of Musharaf to once again align with the US so as to salvage Pakistan politically and economically. And Musharraf deserve the kudos for doing so, even if the religious fundamentalists think otherwise.

Pakistan, in the bargain, had to toe the US line against the AQ. And in reciprocation pleasing noises like 'front line ally' etc was bandied as sops. It was to ensure that there is credibility in using Pakistan in the Crusade of the US to wipe out the AQ. It is to the credit of Musharraf that he assisted the Crusade of the US because that also allowed him leeway to attempt wipe out the fundamentalists inside Pakistan who were decadent and obscurantist in their views and were bringing Pakistan down.

Obviously, Musharraf has fallen foul of the religious fundamentalists and that is how he is in a rather unfortunate position. However, given his dexterity, he will surely surface and his opponent will bite the dust!

As they say, you can't keep a good man down for long!

Yes, but all that is about to change very soon. Pakistan is gravitating away from US military equipment while India is moving towrads it. So according to Indian logic, this means India is about to become America's ***** in the region.

By buying equipment from any country does not mean becoming its stooge. By getting equipment free and joining pacts makes one a stooge.

By your logic, India should be the surrogate of all the countries they buy their equipment from! Odd logic!

Once again, learning the various reasons a program crashes isn't rocket science. Anyone can learn that in a week. India is being used for call centers because there are large amounts of workers that can be taught to speak English (can't seem to get rid of that annoying accent though).

I have not understood what you want to convey.

We have been learning English in India as a part of our education curriculum ever since the British arrived and have never stopped learning, since it was the international language.

The English language as a part of the Indian education was there well before the call centre creation.

Actually, India gets these companies because young people speak English and because India is seen as a (relatively) stable country. Pakistan has been going through turbulent times since the last decade, and IT companies do not want to risk investing there.

Maybe you have a point there. I really wouldn't know.

However, with Musharraf turning Pakistan's economy, I don't think that there is any reason to believe call centres coming up in Pakistan. The only point that could be for consideration is English. I am not too sure if English is taught universally in Pakistan or is it for the upper classes of society alone? I ask this since the Pakistan officers I have met on the Line of Control for Flag Meetings preferred to talk in Urdu/ Hindustani rather than in English. And the English they used was not too great either.

And I would advise you not to take too much pride in the English language skills of Indians. Talk to an American about the Indian tech support guy and it will break your heart to know what they think of your countrmen/women's crazy eloquence skills. Or you could ask them about Apu from The Simpsons.

In the US there is a saying - Looking a gift horse in the teeth and demanding that they should be made of gold! In other words, they want a free horse and the teeth is what gives the health of the horse and even then they want the impossible and the best! Therefore, Americans don't break my heart. If they have a problem, has anyone told them not to look out for another country? European countries speak English (well at least that is what they think they are speaking!)

Let's be clear about one thing. The Americans want the best deal and they also complain. If the world is full of lousy chaps who do not come up to their standards, shouldn't they use their own countrymen? Could it be that while their English is American and understood by other Americans, they don't come cheap and possibly they do not have the technical expertise. Even, China is coming to India for IT related stuff!

Do me a favor. Step outside and look around. How many people do you see in 1 street anywhere in India? How will India become a superpower when there's all these people and millions more every year? Compare your country's per capita income to that of the USA. Then compare your per capita income to China's, but also take into account the population growth rate. Math is a good thing to believe in

Maths is a good thing to believe in but statistics is like a bikini. It reveals everything except the main thing!

I said China will help propel Pakistan towards prosperity. USA will help (since it's the largest trading partner of Pakistan).

China may benefit from the US, but how does China's growth affect Pakistan towards prosperity? Are they giving things free to Pakistan?

US is the largest trading partner of Pakistan? What is the amount of trade?

You think so?

If you think otherwise, do give some facts and figures, please.

India is no more self-sufficient than Pakistan is. Maybe if ya'll realized that the LCA and Arjun wouldn't be such embarrassments and would have been in service by now.

Sadly, you seem to find the production of military equipment as self sufficiency. Why must war be always paramount in your mind. Please check the strategic ores, the industry, the foreign exchange reserves etc etc and then comment.

No country in the world is 'self-sufficient'.

Indeed.

But then, there are countries who without the interdependency can still exist, albeit without all its luxuries.

For instance, I wonder if the US grows mangoes. They are importing from India. Therefore, of course, they are not self sufficient. But, the issue is, will the US collapse if they don't have mangoes? No.

That's because it's the truth

Sir, you admirably jest!

 

[Flintlock]

A slight digression from the topic,

The "ethnicity" or "race" of the individual inventing XYZ is not important- thats not very far from bragging about racial superiority. What does make a difference are the institutions ans systems in place that allow for for individuals to succeed and achieve. The pentium chip was a success of the US system to harness and nurture talent from across the world, as well as its success at creating institutions, private and public, that brought about that achievement.

Of Course!! But don't take the achievement away from the smart bugger who headed the project!!

Lolz...I"m not talking about race dear...I"m talking about the citizen of a country!! India has so many races and frankly I have no idea which race that chap is from!!

What I"m pointing out is that Indian education and attitudes have produced such fantastic people who have done so many pioneering things!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Of Course!! But don't take the achievement away from the smart bugger who headed the project!!

Lolz...I"m not talking about race dear...I"m talking about the citizen of a country!! India has so many races and frankly I have no idea which race that chap is from!!

What I"m pointing out is that Indian education and attitudes have produced such fantastic people who have done so many pioneering things!!

And nothing against the chap, or any other who do accomplish great feats - but within the context of your remark- that India is diversifying - it was an inappropriate reference. The gentleman may have been of Indian origin, but he also studied in the US and worked with other individuals in a US company to achieve that breakthrough. That can hardly be seen as an example of "India diversifying its technological and scientific base", nor is it necessarily a positive reflection upon the education system of the country. There are thousands of immigrants from hundreds of countries in the US who have accomplished a tremendous amount, not all of that can simply be credited to the "education system" of their country of origin - in most cases, those education systems are abysmal.

Also the fact that so many people from so many different races, ethnicities and nationalities have accomplished so much in the US, invalidates your argument that "Indian attitudes" are partly responsible for the success of such individuals.What are "Indian attitudes" anyway?

 

[Flintlock]

And nothing against the chap, or any other who do accomplish great feats - but within the context of your remark- that India is diversifying - it was an inappropriate reference. The gentleman may have been of Indian origin, but he also studied in the US and worked with other individuals in a US company to achieve that breakthrough. That can hardly be seen as an example of "India diversifying its technological and scientific base", nor is it necessarily a positive reflection upon the education system of the country. There are thousands of immigrants form hundreds of countries in the US who have accomplished a tremendous amount, not all of that an simply be credited to the "education system" of their country of origin - in most cases, those education systems are abysmal.

Yeah....it had nothing to do with my point of diversifying actually....just something I remembered at that moment.


P.S.It is a positive reflection of our education system: This guy Vinod Dham did his engineering frm Delhi University!!

 

[Contrarian]

As did a great man known as Malay.....
Quite a lot is expected of him......!

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

And nothing against the chap, or any other who do accomplish great feats - but within the context of your remark- that India is diversifying - it was an inappropriate reference. The gentleman may have been of Indian origin, but he also studied in the US and worked with other individuals in a US company to achieve that breakthrough. That can hardly be seen as an example of "India diversifying its technological and scientific base", nor is it necessarily a positive reflection upon the education system of the country. There are thousands of immigrants from hundreds of countries in the US who have accomplished a tremendous amount, not all of that can simply be credited to the "education system" of their country of origin - in most cases, those education systems are abysmal.

Also the fact that so many people from so many different races, ethnicities and nationalities have accomplished so much in the US, invalidates your argument that "Indian attitudes" are partly responsible for the success of such individuals.What are "Indian attitudes" anyway?

I agree with you in principle.

But then why Indians alone?

Other also have the same opportunities too.

Why Sunita Willaims and Kalpana Chawla?

I am sure there would be Pakistani and other immigrants too!

That is what perplexes!

 

[Neo]

As did a great man known as Malay.....
Quite a lot is expected of him......!

Good one...lol