China denies complicity in Pak's nuclear, missile programme

[Finer]

People in the media that whine about US abandonment are army generals, diplomats and politicians. If they do not represent GoP views I do not know who does


Pakistanis have no right to complain about sucking up

Should i assume the same about Indian medias representing you and the whole India as one by following your method? Trust me. The result won't be pretty. Don't say i didn't warned you.

 

[SQ8]

I fail to see why a thread about Chinese assistance for Pakistan's nuclear and missile program becomes a troll-fest on the very first page. Anyway....

When US National Security Archives declassified foreign policy documents from the period 1977-97, the following things emerged about the China-Pak nuclear nexus (quoting from the NSA website):

Over the course of three presidential administrations, U.S. governmental officials repeatedly pressed the Chinese government to explain whether it was providing any assistance to Pakistan in the nuclear weapons field, but Chinese officials responded with denials and equivocation. Evidence from Libya of Chinese-language material among the nuclear weapons-design documents supplied by Pakistan raised further questions about the Chinese contribution to Pakistan's nuclear proliferation activities. Exactly what the U.S. government knew and when it knew it remains highly secret in closed intelligence files, but the declassified records show:

• U.S. unease over secret China-Pakistan security and military cooperation during the late 1960s

• Chinese assistance to Pakistani nuclear-weapons related projects in 1977

• the refusal by Chinese diplomats in 1982 to give an "unequivocal answer" to queries about nuclear weapons aid to Pakistan

• the conclusion reached by State Department analysts in 1983 that China was assisting with the production of fissile materials and possibly with the design of weapons

• the George H. W. Bush administration's concern in 1989 over "reports of Chinese assistance to Pakistan's nuclear weapons program"

• denials by Chinese diplomats that same year of reports of Chinese nuclear aid to Pakistan

• U.S. pressure on China in 1992 to impose full-scope safeguards on the sale of a nuclear reactor to Pakistan because of proliferation concerns

• more disquiet (late 1992) over China's "continuing activities with Pakistan's nuclear weapons programs"

• the Clinton administration's 1997 certification of improvements in Beijing's nuclear proliferation policies

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/press.htm

Anyone interested in perusing all the documents can do so here:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/index.htm



http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/6641-north-korea-s-bomb-made-pakistan

Both the nuclear explosions that took place in North Korea this year are “made in Pakistan”, according to those silently, and in total secrecy, tracking the nuclear trajectory of the East Asian country. “Silently” because most governments are chary of publicly naming and presumably shaming the military establishment in Pakistan for its drive to weaponise the country’s nuclear deterrent. Cooperation in the development of nuclear weapons between Pakistan and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) has been ongoing since the 1970s, but accelerated some years after the 1998 Chagai tests by Pakistan. “By end-2005, it was clear that testing of nuclear devices through computer modelling was not yielding operationally significant results”, a key analyst based mainly in Hong Kong claimed, adding that from then onwards, a hyper secretive programme of cooperation between the DPRK military and the Pakistan army was begun. In both countries, the men in uniform control the development and production of nuclear devices. The October 2006 and May 2009 North Korean tests took place with regular participation of scientists from a secret nuclear weapons development facility near Hyderabad (Sindh) in Pakistan, the sources asserted. They said that “the Pakistan army has so far done brilliantly what they are expert at, which is bluff”, in that they hyped the degree to which Pakistan had proceeded on the road towards a weaponised nuclear deterrent and attack system. “When A.Q. Khan gave his 1987 interview to Kuldip Nayar about Pakistan having the bomb, they had nothing to show for their pains except a few lumps of radioactive material.” However, “subsequently they received assistance from a member of the United Nations P-5 to launch them on the path towards developing nuclear weapons. However, such assistance was almost totally cut off after the 1998 tests,” thereby forcing Pakistan to conduct further tests in the laboratory rather than underground. After six years, the results of such tests were meagre, although externally, the spin given was that the military establishment in Pakistan had perfected a nuclear weapon and indeed had more such items in stock than India.

The non-proliferation ayatollahs in the US have, from the 1974 Pokhran tests, concentrated on rolling back the Indian nuclear programme, and “although the primitive nature of the Pakistan programme was known to the intelligence services, with which non-proliferation websites and groups in the US closely (albeit covertly) worked, it suited this lobby to broadcast that Pakistan had a robust programme”. The aim was to persuade India that there was an equivalence of nuclear terror between Delhi and Islamabad, thereby (it was calculated) making it more likely that India would undertake reciprocal actions in downsizing its nuclear weapons programme. According to a source based in a European capital, “The A.B. Vajpayee government, through National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra, gave specific promises to its US counterparts that key elements of the Indian programme would be slowed down in the field”, the fig leaf being that laboratory testing would intensify. A source claimed that “thus far, the results of such cold tests have been insufficient to generate designs for a tactical nuclear weapon or weapons that could reliably be loaded onto missile systems already available in the armoury of India”. He added that “unless India conducts at least a half-dozen more tests, it will be extremely difficult to perfect the trigger mechanism for separate devices or to ensure devices that could be safely married on to delivery platforms”.

However, this has been contested by scientists in India, who claim that laboratory testing in the country is sophisticated enough to generate data that would be of use in battlefield situations.

The Pakistan army has, on the contrary, opted to take the field testing route for its nuclear weapons programme, except that “such tests are being conducted by North Korea, with the results being made available to the Pakistan side almost instantaneously”. A source in Hong Kong said that “the results of the February 2013 test by North Korea were the most valuable, and enabled a refinement of the device that became apparent in the two tests conducted this year” by the Kim Jong Un regime in Pyongyang. The sources said that “designs are ferried through North Korean diplomats as well as by individuals acting under commercial cover, and while direct air and sea flights and sailings have taken place, much of the to and fro of date and materiel takes place via China”, which according to these sources “has looked the other way for more than two decades at nuclear cooperation between North Korea and Pakistan”, as, in effect, has the United States. These sources claim that key scientific and technical staff from Pakistan visit the DPRK on a regular basis since 2005 “under assumed identities”.

The sources warn that the covert collaboration between North Korea and Pakistan is geared on the Pakistan side towards developing a tactical nuclear weapon, and on the North Korean side towards producing a nuclear device that could be married to a North Korean missile capable of entering the airspace of the continental United States. They claim that “the Pakistan military has made available extensive information to Pyongyang about how accuracy and reliability can be improved on their missile systems”. Because of external assistance as well as domestic expertise, the missile programme in Pakistan, which is centred in a secret facility near Bahawalpur, has developed a level of sophistication that has yet to be matched by the nuclear weapons programme. These sources expect that North Korea will conduct “at least a half dozen more tests” as “the calculation by both sides is that these will be required to ensure a reliable nuclear weapons system that could, with small modifications, be entered into the armoury of both states.

“The Pakistan army sees the development and deployment of tactical nuclear weapons as being sufficient to permanently deter India from launching a conventional war on its territory”, a source based in a European capital revealed, adding that “at present Pakistan is years away from actually inducting such weapons, which is why they are going the North Korea route towards developing them”. Another source added that “there is no substitute for field data, and unless India manages to persuade the US to share some of its field data on nuclear tests, the (Indian) deterrent will continue to be less than fully reliable in battlefield conditions”. These sources claimed that although India is significantly more advanced than Pakistan in the nuclear weapons trajectory, “as yet tactical nuclear devices have not been perfected” by this country, a lack the cause for which they assign to the unpublicised limitations placed on the nuclear weapons programme by the Vajpayee government—“constraints that were added on to by Manmohan Singh, especially after his 2005 agreement with George W. Bush on nuclear matters”. It would appear that it was the Bush-Singh understanding which helped to motivate the Pakistan army to launch a programme of conducting nuclear tests through North Korea.

A high-placed source warned that by 2023 at the latest and 2021 more likely, the DPRK and Pakistan would each have a “fully functional nuclear weapons stockpile together with reliable means of delivery”. They were pessimistic about the international community having the will to ensure that effective steps be taken (such as through blockade and inspection of both countries including overland routes through China) to freeze and afterwards roll back the joint programme of the North Korean and Pakistan militaries to develop and deploy nuclear weapons that would include battlefield variants.

I stopped reading at sunday guardian

Fluff piece after fluff piece in Hollywood style
Please quote me when you have actually something substantial other than copy pasting sunday tabloid pieces

 

[wiseone2]

Intel officials with sat imagery? And the PAF was needed to pick up stuff and leave a trail according to an intel official when all these articles point to some advanced network of middlemen and companies?

Would it not be easier to fly a Chinese charter in there?
Again, probabilities and logic evidences any such fluff pieces.

You are assuming Pakistani generals wanted to conceal their activities
maybe Pakistani generals want to send a message to Washington
what better way than flying in clearly marked aircraft ?

Should i assume the same about Indian medias representing you and the whole India as one by following your method? Trust me. The result won't be pretty. Don't say i didn't warned you.

If the article is written by respected ex-diplomat or ex-bureaucrat you can assume that they represent some sections of the Indian government

 

[Spy Master]

Lol..a country whose armed forces are using 95% equipment of Russia whining about China selling military hardware to Pakistan...RIP Logic...If India does it, then it is 100% Legal, if Pakistan does it then it is Illegal...! What more can you expect from such a poor nation...!
Believing for personal satisfaction that China is behind Pakistan's missile and nuclear program...then what's stopping you and whole world to drag china to international courts? Just BS things to feed false poor ego of poor Indians whose armed forces itself are running on Russian equipment...!

 

[Jacob Martin]

I stopped reading at sunday guardian

Fluff piece after fluff piece in Hollywood style
Please quote me when you have actually something substantial other than copy pasting sunday tabloid pieces

All right. Allow me some time to sift through the mountain of writings about the Pak-NK nuclear nexus to find something that you will find more convincing. Although I doubt that you will be convinced, as you dismiss NYT reports as well. Anonymous sources form the mainstay of investigative journalism. So discrediting a piece simply because the sources are not revealed is the same as discrediting all investigative journalism.

As for fluff pieces, many senior members on PDF shared the sentiments of NYT before the elections, including some who reside in the US and were certain of their empirical data on lack of support for Trump. I see no move to declare their views as being irrelevant.

 

[Finer]

If the article is written by respected ex-diplomat or ex-bureaucrat you can assume that they represent some sections of the Indian government

Ex means former. That means they are no longer part of the testament to the official representative of Pakistan. Unless you want to change the understanding that former are equally officially representation of the nation as non-former do.

Is it safe to assume former Indians are also official representative of India as well?

 

[wiseone2]

Ex means former. That means they are no longer part of the testament to the official representative of Pakistan. Unless you want to change the understanding that former are equally officially representation of the nation as non-former do.

Is it safe to assume former Indians are also official representative of India as well?

some of the former diplomats and bureaucrats are well connected. you can take what they say as reflection of official sentiment if not policy. I am sure the same is true for Pakistan

getting back to the original point the number of Pakistanis who have complained about American abandonment is a long list. It includes people who represent the government of Pakistan.

 

[Tiger Genie]

Whichever way you want to paint it. Front companies are not sole proof. For years Rafael sold equipment and still does via Front Companies.

The damning has to do with a hypocritical view of the world on Pakistan trumped up by neo-liberal media much to the reposting Indians glee. In reality, nothing unlawful has been done since 2001.

It is always possible to justify and rationalize any misdeeds, specially those done at the dark of the night since nobody will know all details. And you get away with that if you didn't have the integrity problem ..or as you'd call it, the image problem (you = Pak).

But yes, front companies abound everywhere.

 

[SQ8]

It is always possible to justify and rationalize any misdeeds, specially those done at the dark of the night since nobody will know all details. And you get away with that if you didn't have the integrity problem ..or as you'd call it, the image problem (you = Pak).

But yes, front companies abound everywhere.

Again, your own signature explains your sanctimonious national character. I have no time for pathetic bias in judging.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Then what's stopping you and whole world to drag china to international courts?

Exactly. If they had real proof they could take us to the International Courts like the Philippines did over the SCS.

 

[Tiger Genie]

Again, your own signature explains your sanctimonious national character. I have no time for pathetic bias in judging.

ok reverend. didn't expect anything better.

 

[Finer]

some of the former diplomats and bureaucrats are well connected. you can take what they say as reflection of official sentiment if not policy. I am sure the same is true for Pakistan

getting back to the original point the number of Pakistanis who have complained about American abandonment is a long list. It includes people who represent the government of Pakistan.

You mean the media complained about American abandonment that is not actual representative of the nation? You clearly lost the plot, and you are now desperately clinging to the lost plot. Quit it before you continue to embarrass yourself furthermore.

 

[Pandora]

Here is something bunch of idiot indians on this thread dont understand.

You cant simply invent a technology which already exists. You cant recreate basics of technology even if you point your arse sky high. You simply cant design a Rocket without an engiene. Every system except some tweaks is a copy of another system so please dont waste our time with usual ranting. Here is an example

Yakhont

Brahmos

Seriously you people didnt even bother change the fin design to make it looks slightly different. So much for indeginous

Here is chinese missile so i hope every one got the idea

 

[Jacob Martin]

Therefore such reports are merely latent weapons to be used when and where needed such as in NSG circles and otherwise lie dormant without any utility.

True that. We could all agree/disagree on the veracity of such reports but the fact remains that they are just convenient tools to be brought up when something is at play. Just like intelligence reports on "weapons of mass destruction" before the War in Iraq.