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China denies complicity in Pak's nuclear, missile programme

This report actually mentions NOTHING. Infact, it is the ultimate expression of a needless Euphemism. All it actually contains is highlighting the various organisations that Pakistan has and only spends 1/20th of its text actually talking about how Pakistan has proliferated and spends ZERO time presenting proof.

The report is analogous to an article on "Effect of global warming on Salmon Migration" and then only talks about Salmon as a fish and how delicious it is when paired with Sanguine.

But the article did not not set out to prove or disprove anything. It was reporting on what the UK based group's contention and the Chinese guy offering proforma defense. Still the ending directly made a telling point on Pakistani practices. Plus the Chinese defence used a broad-brush, (parapharing ) something like ofcourse we do that because we are close.

"Pakistan cannot expect to be welcomed into the NSG when it continues to secretly and systematically undermine NSG members' national export control systems by targeting companies through the use of front companies and other deceptive techniques,"
 
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But the article did not not set out to prove or disprove anything. It was reporting on what the UK based group's contention and the Chinese guy offering proforma defense. Still the ending directly made a telling point on Pakistani practices. Plus the Chinese defence used a broad-brush, (parapharing ) something like ofcourse we do that because we are close.

"Pakistan cannot expect to be welcomed into the NSG when it continues to secretly and systematically undermine NSG members' national export control systems by targeting companies through the use of front companies and other deceptive techniques,"
Whichever way you want to paint it. Front companies are not sole proof. For years Rafael sold equipment and still does via Front Companies.

The damning has to do with a hypocritical view of the world on Pakistan trumped up by neo-liberal media much to the reposting Indians glee. In reality, nothing unlawful has been done since 2001.
 
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Alright.

According to the Indian Army's own internal report, it was India who attacked China:

It wasn't China, but Nehru who started the 1962 War - Times of India

Now, like the rest of the Indian members here, you are going to call your own Army a liar. :lol:

India saw a country that was starving to death, and they decided to be cheap opportunists. Now you are crying that we helped Pakistan with their nuclear weapons in retaliation. Sorry, you are not important enough.
India is a cowardly nation and attacks only smaller or weaker nations. Right now China is a rising superpower and India has decided to suck up to uncle sam to get some goodies and try to challenge the Chinese dragon but all it will do it is use all its energies against Pakistan to destroy it. However Pakistan is also a nuclear power and cannot be bullied so India has resorted to terrorism by sponsoring terrorist groups in Afghanistan to create terrorism inside Pakistan especially Baluchistan to sabotage the CPEC project. CPEC will not only help Pakistan but will make China a consolidated super economic power for decades to come as it will allow China to by pass SCS and thus lying USA and Indian plans to waste. However Pakistan and China need to keep working together and keep an eye on the terrorist India as it has been trying to sponsor terrorists in China's Uyghur area and create a friction between China and Pakistan. However the permanent settlement is that Pakistan and China work together to divide India into smaller and manageable parts that are semi-autonomous and are unable to create problem for the peace in South Asia and the world. Otherwise it will keep seeking opportunities for attacking China and Pakistan when it will find some weakness.
 
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There is no such thing as "Mandarin characters". Mandarin is a spoken dialect, they write using the same Chinese characters as everyone else here.

Don't you guys do your homework before making up these hilariously false accusations?

Point taken, but not to get too much carried away on a trivial slip.
Stick to it, AQ Khan network was caught red handed distributing your nuke designs to their potential customers.
 
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I want you to think carefully before you make post.

Are you saying the media is the representative of Pakistan? So that means Indian media is also representative of India which means whatever Indian media has said should be taken on board as official narrative being representative of India? Think carefully and analyze the post.
People in the media that whine about US abandonment are army generals, diplomats and politicians. If they do not represent GoP views I do not know who does

India is a cowardly nation and attacks only smaller or weaker nations. Right now China is a rising superpower and India has decided to suck up to uncle sam to get some goodies and try to challenge the Chinese dragon but all it will do it is use all its energies against Pakistan to destroy. However Pakistan is also a nuclear power and cannot be bullied so India has resorted to terrorism by sponsoring terrorist groups in Afghanistan to create terrorism inside Pakistan especially Baluchistan to sabotage the CPEC project. CPEC will not only help Pakistan but will make China a consolidated super economic power for decades to come as it will allow China to by pass SCS and thus lying USA and Indian plans to waste. However Pakistan and China need to keep working together and keep an eye on the terrorist India as it has been trying to sponsor terrorists in China's Uyghur area and create a friction between China and Pakistan. However the permanent settlement is that Pakistan and China work together to divide India is smaller and manageable pieces that are unable to create problem for the peace in South Asia and the world. Otherwise it will keep seeking opportunities for attacking China and Pakistan if it can find some weakness.
Pakistanis have no right to complain about sucking up
 
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Whichever way you want to paint it. Front companies are not sole proof. For years Rafael sold equipment and still does via Front Companies.

The damning has to do with a hypocritical view of the world on Pakistan trumped up by neo-liberal media much to the reposting Indians glee. In reality, nothing unlawful has been done since 2001.

As per NY Times PAF C-130 were seen in Pyongyang as late as 2002
 
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For what? NY times has rather weak sources considering they were predicting a hillary sweep.
The last interaction with Pyongyang was their people visiting in 00 to assist with evasive guidance.

predicting an election is different business
Their source was intel official with access to satellite imagery
 
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predicting an election is different business
Their source was intel official with access to satellite imagery
Intel officials with sat imagery? And the PAF was needed to pick up stuff and leave a trail according to an intel official when all these articles point to some advanced network of middlemen and companies?

Would it not be easier to fly a Chinese charter in there?
Again, probabilities and logic evidences any such fluff pieces.
 
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I fail to see why a thread about Chinese assistance for Pakistan's nuclear and missile program becomes a troll-fest on the very first page. Anyway....

When US National Security Archives declassified foreign policy documents from the period 1977-97, the following things emerged about the China-Pak nuclear nexus (quoting from the NSA website):

Over the course of three presidential administrations, U.S. governmental officials repeatedly pressed the Chinese government to explain whether it was providing any assistance to Pakistan in the nuclear weapons field, but Chinese officials responded with denials and equivocation. Evidence from Libya of Chinese-language material among the nuclear weapons-design documents supplied by Pakistan raised further questions about the Chinese contribution to Pakistan's nuclear proliferation activities. Exactly what the U.S. government knew and when it knew it remains highly secret in closed intelligence files, but the declassified records show:


  • U.S. unease over secret China-Pakistan security and military cooperation during the late 1960s

  • Chinese assistance to Pakistani nuclear-weapons related projects in 1977

  • the refusal by Chinese diplomats in 1982 to give an "unequivocal answer" to queries about nuclear weapons aid to Pakistan

  • the conclusion reached by State Department analysts in 1983 that China was assisting with the production of fissile materials and possibly with the design of weapons

  • the George H. W. Bush administration's concern in 1989 over "reports of Chinese assistance to Pakistan's nuclear weapons program"

  • denials by Chinese diplomats that same year of reports of Chinese nuclear aid to Pakistan

  • U.S. pressure on China in 1992 to impose full-scope safeguards on the sale of a nuclear reactor to Pakistan because of proliferation concerns

  • more disquiet (late 1992) over China's "continuing activities with Pakistan's nuclear weapons programs"
  • the Clinton administration's 1997 certification of improvements in Beijing's nuclear proliferation policies
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/press.htm

Anyone interested in perusing all the documents can do so here:

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/index.htm

For what? NY times has rather weak sources considering they were predicting a hillary sweep.
The last interaction with Pyongyang was their people visiting in 00 to assist with evasive guidance.

http://www.sundayguardianlive.com/investigation/6641-north-korea-s-bomb-made-pakistan

Both the nuclear explosions that took place in North Korea this year are “made in Pakistan”, according to those silently, and in total secrecy, tracking the nuclear trajectory of the East Asian country. “Silently” because most governments are chary of publicly naming and presumably shaming the military establishment in Pakistan for its drive to weaponise the country’s nuclear deterrent. Cooperation in the development of nuclear weapons between Pakistan and the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea (DPRK) has been ongoing since the 1970s, but accelerated some years after the 1998 Chagai tests by Pakistan. “By end-2005, it was clear that testing of nuclear devices through computer modelling was not yielding operationally significant results”, a key analyst based mainly in Hong Kong claimed, adding that from then onwards, a hyper secretive programme of cooperation between the DPRK military and the Pakistan army was begun. In both countries, the men in uniform control the development and production of nuclear devices. The October 2006 and May 2009 North Korean tests took place with regular participation of scientists from a secret nuclear weapons development facility near Hyderabad (Sindh) in Pakistan, the sources asserted. They said that “the Pakistan army has so far done brilliantly what they are expert at, which is bluff”, in that they hyped the degree to which Pakistan had proceeded on the road towards a weaponised nuclear deterrent and attack system. “When A.Q. Khan gave his 1987 interview to Kuldip Nayar about Pakistan having the bomb, they had nothing to show for their pains except a few lumps of radioactive material.” However, “subsequently they received assistance from a member of the United Nations P-5 to launch them on the path towards developing nuclear weapons. However, such assistance was almost totally cut off after the 1998 tests,” thereby forcing Pakistan to conduct further tests in the laboratory rather than underground. After six years, the results of such tests were meagre, although externally, the spin given was that the military establishment in Pakistan had perfected a nuclear weapon and indeed had more such items in stock than India.

The non-proliferation ayatollahs in the US have, from the 1974 Pokhran tests, concentrated on rolling back the Indian nuclear programme, and “although the primitive nature of the Pakistan programme was known to the intelligence services, with which non-proliferation websites and groups in the US closely (albeit covertly) worked, it suited this lobby to broadcast that Pakistan had a robust programme”. The aim was to persuade India that there was an equivalence of nuclear terror between Delhi and Islamabad, thereby (it was calculated) making it more likely that India would undertake reciprocal actions in downsizing its nuclear weapons programme. According to a source based in a European capital, “The A.B. Vajpayee government, through National Security Advisor Brajesh Mishra, gave specific promises to its US counterparts that key elements of the Indian programme would be slowed down in the field”, the fig leaf being that laboratory testing would intensify. A source claimed that “thus far, the results of such cold tests have been insufficient to generate designs for a tactical nuclear weapon or weapons that could reliably be loaded onto missile systems already available in the armoury of India”. He added that “unless India conducts at least a half-dozen more tests, it will be extremely difficult to perfect the trigger mechanism for separate devices or to ensure devices that could be safely married on to delivery platforms”.

However, this has been contested by scientists in India, who claim that laboratory testing in the country is sophisticated enough to generate data that would be of use in battlefield situations.

The Pakistan army has, on the contrary, opted to take the field testing route for its nuclear weapons programme, except that “such tests are being conducted by North Korea, with the results being made available to the Pakistan side almost instantaneously”. A source in Hong Kong said that “the results of the February 2013 test by North Korea were the most valuable, and enabled a refinement of the device that became apparent in the two tests conducted this year” by the Kim Jong Un regime in Pyongyang. The sources said that “designs are ferried through North Korean diplomats as well as by individuals acting under commercial cover, and while direct air and sea flights and sailings have taken place, much of the to and fro of date and materiel takes place via China”, which according to these sources “has looked the other way for more than two decades at nuclear cooperation between North Korea and Pakistan”, as, in effect, has the United States. These sources claim that key scientific and technical staff from Pakistan visit the DPRK on a regular basis since 2005 “under assumed identities”.

The sources warn that the covert collaboration between North Korea and Pakistan is geared on the Pakistan side towards developing a tactical nuclear weapon, and on the North Korean side towards producing a nuclear device that could be married to a North Korean missile capable of entering the airspace of the continental United States. They claim that “the Pakistan military has made available extensive information to Pyongyang about how accuracy and reliability can be improved on their missile systems”. Because of external assistance as well as domestic expertise, the missile programme in Pakistan, which is centred in a secret facility near Bahawalpur, has developed a level of sophistication that has yet to be matched by the nuclear weapons programme. These sources expect that North Korea will conduct “at least a half dozen more tests” as “the calculation by both sides is that these will be required to ensure a reliable nuclear weapons system that could, with small modifications, be entered into the armoury of both states.

“The Pakistan army sees the development and deployment of tactical nuclear weapons as being sufficient to permanently deter India from launching a conventional war on its territory”, a source based in a European capital revealed, adding that “at present Pakistan is years away from actually inducting such weapons, which is why they are going the North Korea route towards developing them”. Another source added that “there is no substitute for field data, and unless India manages to persuade the US to share some of its field data on nuclear tests, the (Indian) deterrent will continue to be less than fully reliable in battlefield conditions”. These sources claimed that although India is significantly more advanced than Pakistan in the nuclear weapons trajectory, “as yet tactical nuclear devices have not been perfected” by this country, a lack the cause for which they assign to the unpublicised limitations placed on the nuclear weapons programme by the Vajpayee government—“constraints that were added on to by Manmohan Singh, especially after his 2005 agreement with George W. Bush on nuclear matters”. It would appear that it was the Bush-Singh understanding which helped to motivate the Pakistan army to launch a programme of conducting nuclear tests through North Korea.

A high-placed source warned that by 2023 at the latest and 2021 more likely, the DPRK and Pakistan would each have a “fully functional nuclear weapons stockpile together with reliable means of delivery”. They were pessimistic about the international community having the will to ensure that effective steps be taken (such as through blockade and inspection of both countries including overland routes through China) to freeze and afterwards roll back the joint programme of the North Korean and Pakistan militaries to develop and deploy nuclear weapons that would include battlefield variants.
 
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Intel officials with sat imagery? And the PAF was needed to pick up stuff and leave a trail according to an intel official when all these articles point to some advanced network of middlemen and companies?

Would it not be easier to fly a Chinese charter in there?
Again, probabilities and logic evidences any such fluff pieces.
Bhai Sahab, Proves only one thing: Common sense, is not very common.
 
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Bhai Sahab, Proves only one thing: Common sense, is not very common.

Well said brother. :enjoy:

The whole point of plausible deniability is that no one is going to leave real evidence behind if they are doing something like this.

And they certainly aren't going to be leaving behind their ID cards at the scene, as has "apparently" happened many times. Documents with their signatures on it, written in their own language, hell why don't they just drop some of their old school photos as well.
 
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Well said brother. :enjoy:

The whole point of plausible deniability is that no one is going to leave real evidence behind if they are doing something like this.

And they certainly aren't going to be leaving behind their ID cards at the scene, as has "apparently" happened many times. Documents with their signatures on it, written in their own language, hell why don't they just drop some of their old school photos as well.

You forget that the audience is not the the courts where such things as burden of irrefutable evidence lies on accuser matter.

The report targets decision makers and bureaucrats and aims towards perception management and even then these people will act according to their interests wherein plausible deniability can be an convenient crutch in case their interests align with yours or the whiff of scandal a censure if the interests are opposed.

Therefore such reports are merely latent weapons to be used when and where needed such as in NSG circles and otherwise lie dormant without any utility.
 
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