China Builds Military Airstrip in Disputed South China Sea

[SamDNguyen]

Han Nom is based off Hanzi,you really have no clue about Vietnamese history do you....

嶺南摭怪,粵甸幽靈集,大越史記,大越史記全書,越史略,欽定越史通鑑綱目 etc,these are all written in Hanzi

Then again your take medieval Vietnamese myths at face value,there's not much I can expect from you.

The funniest part of it all is that that Vietnamese try to monopolize the toponym "Yue" when the first reference(which dates to the Shang dynasty) locates Yue in northwest China.

Partially correct. I am no history expert but Nom Tu was based off of Nho Tu (Confucian Script). Nho Tu which was widely adopted by Han was developed during the Middle Archaic period. The Nho script evolved from the Bird and Worm script from the Seal script used by the Qin and Zhou. Documentations exist in Vietnam but are mostly ignored by the majority since this writing system is no longer in use. Moreover, most of Vietnamese historical texts haven't been fully translated into Quốc ngữ or made available to the public.

Clearly you haven't studied all of Vietnamese historical documentations. Many Vietnamese officials can trace their roots to MinYue and WuYue Kindom of the Spring and Autumn period of China's history. A more recent example would be Phan Thanh Giản who was a Grand Counsellor at the Nguyen court who can trace his heritage to MinYue Kingdom. Vietnamese and Chinese historian alike tend to keep a distinct separation between the history within its borders for political purposes.

 

[Grand Historian]

Partially correct. I am no history expert but Nom Tu was based off of Nho Tu (Confucian Script). Nho Tu which was widely adopted by Han was developed during the Middle Archaic period. The Nho script evolved from the Bird and Worm script from the Seal script used by the Qin and Zhou. Documentations exist in Vietnam but are mostly ignored by the majority since this writing system is no longer in use. Moreover, most of Vietnamese historical texts haven't been fully translated into Quốc ngữ or made available to the public.

Clearly you haven't studied all of Vietnamese historical documentations. Many Vietnamese officials can trace their roots to MinYue and WuYue Kindom of the Spring and Autumn period of China's history. A more recent example would be Phan Thanh Giản who was a Grand Counsellor at the Nguyen court who can trace his heritage to MinYue Kingdom. Vietnamese and Chinese historian alike tend to keep a distinct separation between the history within its borders for political purposes.

Hanzi is just a label encompassing historical scripts used by Chinese which includes the oracle bone to the simplified ones,both chu nom and chu nho are derived from Chinese.

They don't trace their regions directly to the two kingdoms,they trace ancestry to the geographical area therefore the Tran king's ancestors came from Min(閩) which is just an archaic term for modern day Fujian.

Minyue was depopulated by the orders of Han Wudi therefore Phan Thanh Gian's ancestors could not have been Minyue officials,if you bothered to study the demographic history of Fujian coastal areas were settled first by Han migrants while the mountainous interior was inhabited by bandits and aboriginals.

Claiming your ancestors originated from somewhere else doesn't make you your ancestor's ethnicity,Wu,Yue and Minyue have nothing do with whatever Vietnamese entity existed at that time.

What Vietnamese don't understand is that Yue was historically applied to multiple people all across today's China,simply because Vietnamese retain a Chinese ethnonym doesn't mean they have a relationship with previous Yue groups.

Even Han was used by Nguyen era elites to differentiate themselves from Chinese from Qing and southern natives,does that mean the Han dynasty Chinese are Vietnamese?

 

[SamDNguyen]

Hanzi is just a label encompassing historical scripts used by Chinese which includes the oracle bone to the simplified ones,both chu nom and chu nho are derived from Chinese.

They don't trace their regions directly to the two kingdoms,they trace ancestry to the geographical area therefore the Tran king's ancestors came from Min(閩) which is just an archaic term for modern day Fujian.

Minyue was depopulated by the orders of Han Wudi therefore Phan Thanh Gian's ancestors could not have been Minyue officials,if you bothered to study the demographic history of Fujian coastal areas were settled first by Han migrants while the mountainous interior was inhabited by bandits and aboriginals.

Claiming your ancestors originated from somewhere else doesn't make you your ancestor's ethnicity,Wu,Yue and Minyue have nothing do with whatever Vietnamese entity existed at that time.

What Vietnamese don't understand is that Yue was historically applied to multiple people all across today's China,simply because Vietnamese retain a Chinese ethnonym doesn't mean they have a relationship with previous Yue groups.

Even Han was used by Nguyen era elites to differentiate themselves from Chinese from Qing and southern natives,does that mean the Han dynasty Chinese are Vietnamese?

Vietnamese history is her own history. The History within its own borders and of its land. It has little to do with China's History. However, we are a product of our ancestors, therefore, we can not overlook the historical entanglement among the Viet clans which united us as a race through thousands of years. No Viet ever claim to be Chinese, because we are Viet (越).

During the Nguyen Dynasty, Han was used to differentiate us from Chinese (Manchu) and Tang immigrants. . "Han" throughout history have been used as a umbrella term. We could only speculate the ambition of the Nguyen court by choosing this label to unite its people at the time.

Addendum: Vietnamese refer to the Qing as Mãn Thanh. Qing = Thanh in Vietnamese.

 

[殷永峰]

This is unsinkable aircraft carrier

 

[SamDNguyen]

This is unsinkable aircraft carrier

Indeed. It is a marvel of its kind.

 

[Grand Historian]

Vietnamese history is her own history. The History within its own borders and of its land. It has little to do with China's History. However, we are a product of our ancestors, therefore, we can not overlook the historical entanglement among the Viet clans which united us as a race through thousands of years. No Viet ever claim to be Chinese, because we are Viet (越).

During the Nguyen Dynasty, Han was used to differentiate us from Chinese (Manchu) and Tang immigrants. . "Han" throughout history have been used as a umbrella term. We could only speculate the ambition of the Nguyen court by choosing this label to unite its people at the time.

Addendum: Vietnamese refer to the Qing as Mãn Thanh. Qing = Thanh in Vietnamese.

You claim that Vietnamese history has little to do with China yet we see a nationalist tradition that is built off distorting Chinese history and trying to pass it as Vietnamese history,ie myths located in modern day China,Chinese deities,Chinese terminology etc.

There was no concept of being Vietnamese prior to Chinese annexation,in an effort to whitewash their past Vietnamese historians seek to distort reality to show a struggle against an eternal enemy ie the Chinese.

Vietnamese even worshiped Ma Yuan the supposed enemy of the "Vietnamese" Trung sisters because it was conflated with the White Horse King. Adriano di St. Thelca and Zheng Junan both record this information though Zheng Junan assumes it was just a mistake. However up until 1984 Ma Yuan was indeed the primary deity that was worshiped in Bach Ma temple,though the August Revolution already destroyed most of the other Ma Yuan temples.

Nguyen era temples worshiping Ma Yuan were located in Thanh Hoa,Thanh Binh hamlet and Loa lake.

See the translation of Opusculum de sectis apud Sinenses et Tunkinenses pg42-47 by Olga Dror and 越南民間信仰---白馬大王神話 by 許文堂(Xu Wentang).

Yue was never an indigenous concept,the earliest Yue were located northwest of Anyang while western Zhou had a Yue state in Henan,in the Spring and Autumn period does a powerful Yue kingdom appear in Zhejiang who claimed Chinese ancestry from the bastard son of Shaokang(少康) Wuyu(無餘) therefore from the Great Yu(大禹) himself,finally the amongst the various Baiyue only the Zou(騶) rulers of Minyue and Donghai claimed descent King Goujian of Yue.

Being Yue doesn't make you Viet,again Vietnamese like to distort the past by claiming all Yue states and Vietnamese

Han as an ethnonym was used exclusively by Chinese and synonymous with being in essence "Chinese",the fact that the Nguyen dynasty elites decided to use this shows that they considered themselves to be civilized in a Chinese fashion.

The fact that the Nguyen era Lich dai de vuong temple worshiped Fu Xi,Shennong,Huang Di,Yao,Shun,Yu,Tang Shang etc and neglects the Hung Kings shows the nationalism that pervades in modern day Vietnamese historiography.
The Nguyễn Dynasty’s Miếu Lịch Đại Đế Vương | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog

 

[sword1947]

we will get virginia class and f22 in two years.

can't wait to see, why not now?

 

[SamDNguyen]

You claim that Vietnamese history has little to do with China yet we see a nationalist tradition that is built off distorting Chinese history and trying to pass it as Vietnamese history,ie myths located in modern day China,Chinese deities,Chinese terminology etc.

There was no concept of being Vietnamese prior to Chinese annexation,in an effort to whitewash their past Vietnamese historians seek to distort reality to show a struggle against an eternal enemy ie the Chinese.

Vietnamese even worshiped Ma Yuan the supposed enemy of the "Vietnamese" Trung sisters because it was conflated with the White Horse King. Adriano di St. Thelca and Zheng Junan both record this information though Zheng Junan assumes it was just a mistake. However up until 1984 Ma Yuan was indeed the primary deity that was worshiped in Bach Ma temple,though the August Revolution already destroyed most of the other Ma Yuan temples.

Nguyen era temples worshiping Ma Yuan were located in Thanh Hoa,Thanh Binh hamlet and Loa lake.

See the translation of Opusculum de sectis apud Sinenses et Tunkinenses pg42-47 by Olga Dror and 越南民間信仰---白馬大王神話 by 許文堂(Xu Wentang).

Yue was never an indigenous concept,the earliest Yue were located northwest of Anyang while western Zhou had a Yue state in Henan,in the Spring and Autumn period does a powerful Yue kingdom appear in Zhejiang who claimed Chinese ancestry from the bastard son of Shaokang(少康) Wuyu(無餘) therefore from the Great Yu(大禹) himself,finally the amongst the various Baiyue only the Zou(騶) rulers of Minyue and Donghai claimed descent King Goujian of Yue.

Being Yue doesn't make you Viet,again Vietnamese like to distort the past by claiming all Yue states and Vietnamese

Han as an ethnonym was used exclusively by Chinese and synonymous with being in essence "Chinese",the fact that the Nguyen dynasty elites decided to use this shows that they considered themselves to be civilized in a Chinese fashion.

The fact that the Nguyen era Lich dai de vuong temple worshiped Fu Xi,Shennong,Huang Di,Yao,Shun,Yu,Tang Shang etc and neglects the Hung Kings shows the nationalism that pervades in modern day Vietnamese historiography.

That is your own way of thinking. Like I have said before, Vietnam's history is her own history. We are Lac Viet and Au Viet and yes we have others Viet clans that joined us throughout our history which contributed to our modern race. Yue is China's history not Vietnamese. The borderline between the histories are drawn. We are Viet Kinh people and you are Trung Quoc Hoa people.

Temples are erected to seal ordinances of the rulers. Temples add extra income for the Nguyen court and other dynasties.

Man Qing Emperors erected many temples and structures devoted to the worship of Hoa gods like the Five Tiger General of Shu Han like Kwan Tai, Zheng Fei and Ma Yuan and others Hoa deities.

The only thing that I am concern about is when will China remove the 9 dash line in Southern Sea and apologize to the families of fishermen that were killed by Chinese Soldiers?

 

[Grand Historian]

That is your own way of thinking. Like I have said before, Vietnam's history is her own history. We are Lac Viet and Au Viet and yes we have others Viet clans that joined us throughout our history which contributed to our modern race. Yue is China's history not Vietnamese. The borderline between the histories are drawn. We are Viet Kinh people and you are Trung Quoc Hoa people.

Temples are erected to seal ordinances of the rulers. Temples add extra income for the Nguyen court and other dynasties.

Man Qing Emperors erected many temples and structures devoted to the worship of Hoa gods like the Five Tiger General of Shu Han like Kwan Tai, Zheng Fei and Ma Yuan and others Hoa deities.

The only thing that I am concern about is when will China remove the 9 dash line in Southern Sea and apologize to the families of fishermen that were killed by Chinese Soldiers?

Sigh,you simply don't get it do you,modern day Vietnamese historiography is built on interwoven lies perpetuated by Vietnamese nationalism.

You don't address any of my points,all you do is shift the goalpost when you're unable to provide a satisfactory answer.

The various Yue didn't see eye to eye,neither did they have a common identity,I doubt modern day Anatolian Turks are representative of the Gokturks,or FYROM representative of Macedonia I could go on and on the point is simply because two political entities share the same name doesn't mean they are by any chance related.

Kinh wasn't even the preferred ethnonym during the Nguyen dynasty tell me why don't you address this?

Qing never called itself Man Qing,neither did they consider themselves foreign.

When Chinese entities ruled northern Vietnam they never bothered embracing native culture,worship indigenous gods or situate their capital within modern day Vietnam.

China recognizes the waters within the 9 dash nine to be Chinese therefore the fishermen are intruders should the Vietnamese government apologize for repressing the Hoa,I doubt either one will as these two countries are too mired in nationalism.

 

[Viet]

You claim that Vietnamese history has little to do with China yet we see a nationalist tradition that is built off distorting Chinese history and trying to pass it as Vietnamese history,ie myths located in modern day China,Chinese deities,Chinese terminology etc.

There was no concept of being Vietnamese prior to Chinese annexation,in an effort to whitewash their past Vietnamese historians seek to distort reality to show a struggle against an eternal enemy ie the Chinese.

Vietnamese even worshiped Ma Yuan the supposed enemy of the "Vietnamese" Trung sisters because it was conflated with the White Horse King. Adriano di St. Thelca and Zheng Junan both record this information though Zheng Junan assumes it was just a mistake. However up until 1984 Ma Yuan was indeed the primary deity that was worshiped in Bach Ma temple,though the August Revolution already destroyed most of the other Ma Yuan temples.

Nguyen era temples worshiping Ma Yuan were located in Thanh Hoa,Thanh Binh hamlet and Loa lake.

See the translation of Opusculum de sectis apud Sinenses et Tunkinenses pg42-47 by Olga Dror and 越南民間信仰---白馬大王神話 by 許文堂(Xu Wentang).

Yue was never an indigenous concept,the earliest Yue were located northwest of Anyang while western Zhou had a Yue state in Henan,in the Spring and Autumn period does a powerful Yue kingdom appear in Zhejiang who claimed Chinese ancestry from the bastard son of Shaokang(少康) Wuyu(無餘) therefore from the Great Yu(大禹) himself,finally the amongst the various Baiyue only the Zou(騶) rulers of Minyue and Donghai claimed descent King Goujian of Yue.

Being Yue doesn't make you Viet,again Vietnamese like to distort the past by claiming all Yue states and Vietnamese

Han as an ethnonym was used exclusively by Chinese and synonymous with being in essence "Chinese",the fact that the Nguyen dynasty elites decided to use this shows that they considered themselves to be civilized in a Chinese fashion.

The fact that the Nguyen era Lich dai de vuong temple worshiped Fu Xi,Shennong,Huang Di,Yao,Shun,Yu,Tang Shang etc and neglects the Hung Kings shows the nationalism that pervades in modern day Vietnamese historiography.
The Nguyễn Dynasty’s Miếu Lịch Đại Đế Vương | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog

you love to bash vietnam, don´t you?

but I give you credit for not calling us monkey as chinese usually do. because in doing so, you slap your face by yourself. as you point out, for almost of vietnamese history, we are more chinese than vietnamese. so what are we? fake vietnamese or what.

 

[Tractor]

you love to bash vietnam, don´t you?

but I give you credit for not calling us monkey as chinese usually do. because in doing so, you slap your face by yourself. as you point out, for almost of vietnamese history, we are more chinese than vietnamese. so what are we? fake vietnamese or what.

We are same people,Mongolian,Japanese,chinese,Vietnamese even Sikkimese.Not sure about Korean.

 

[dichoi]

You claim that Vietnamese history has little to do with China yet we see a nationalist tradition that is built off distorting Chinese history and trying to pass it as Vietnamese history,ie myths located in modern day China,Chinese deities,Chinese terminology etc.

There was no concept of being Vietnamese prior to Chinese annexation,in an effort to whitewash their past Vietnamese historians seek to distort reality to show a struggle against an eternal enemy ie the Chinese.

Vietnamese even worshiped Ma Yuan the supposed enemy of the "Vietnamese" Trung sisters because it was conflated with the White Horse King. Adriano di St. Thelca and Zheng Junan both record this information though Zheng Junan assumes it was just a mistake. However up until 1984 Ma Yuan was indeed the primary deity that was worshiped in Bach Ma temple,though the August Revolution already destroyed most of the other Ma Yuan temples.

Nguyen era temples worshiping Ma Yuan were located in Thanh Hoa,Thanh Binh hamlet and Loa lake.

See the translation of Opusculum de sectis apud Sinenses et Tunkinenses pg42-47 by Olga Dror and 越南民間信仰---白馬大王神話 by 許文堂(Xu Wentang).

Yue was never an indigenous concept,the earliest Yue were located northwest of Anyang while western Zhou had a Yue state in Henan,in the Spring and Autumn period does a powerful Yue kingdom appear in Zhejiang who claimed Chinese ancestry from the bastard son of Shaokang(少康) Wuyu(無餘) therefore from the Great Yu(大禹) himself,finally the amongst the various Baiyue only the Zou(騶) rulers of Minyue and Donghai claimed descent King Goujian of Yue.

Being Yue doesn't make you Viet,again Vietnamese like to distort the past by claiming all Yue states and Vietnamese

Han as an ethnonym was used exclusively by Chinese and synonymous with being in essence "Chinese",the fact that the Nguyen dynasty elites decided to use this shows that they considered themselves to be civilized in a Chinese fashion.

The fact that the Nguyen era Lich dai de vuong temple worshiped Fu Xi,Shennong,Huang Di,Yao,Shun,Yu,Tang Shang etc and neglects the Hung Kings shows the nationalism that pervades in modern day Vietnamese historiography.
The Nguyễn Dynasty’s Miếu Lịch Đại Đế Vương | Le Minh Khai's SEAsian History Blog

Very funny bro,

Liam C. Kelly is history troller and idiot, you can visit now the Dong Da Hill Temple in Hanoi, where is the temple is erected by people for worshiping for Man Qing soldiers who were killed in Hanoi when they invaded in to our city by our King Nguyen Hue.

Do you know what does it mean ?

 

[Grand Historian]

you love to bash vietnam, don´t you?

but I give you credit for not calling us monkey as chinese usually do. because in doing so, you slap your face by yourself. as you point out, for almost of vietnamese history, we are more chinese than vietnamese. so what are we? fake vietnamese or what.

I love to bash people who distort history to make themselves look superior or support a nationalistic narrative.

Why would I call Vietnamese "monkeys",nationalism,chauvinism and supremacism exist throughout all cultures whether you can rise above is whole different issue.

I trust the irredentist/nationalistic narrative supported by some PDF Vietnamese members isn't representative on how your average Vietnamese views China.

 

[Rechoice]

We are same people,Mongolian,Japanese,chinese,Vietnamese even Sikkimese.Not sure about Korean.

I think Korean belong to Mongoloid race too.

 

[Grand Historian]

Very funny bro,

Liam C. Kelly is history troller and idiot, you can visit now the Dong Da Hill Temple in Hanoi, where is the temple is erected by people for worshiping for Man Qing soldiers who were killed in Hanoi when they invaded in to our city by our King Nguyen Hue.

Do you know what does it mean ?

You're too incompetent to refute professor Kelley's points,do you have a PHD in Chinese history?

The texts that he sources from were written by Vietnamese,unless you are willing to spurn your own history.

The fact remains that Chinese deities were worshiped throughout Vietnamese history,something which contradicts the narrative that Chinese are the polar opposite of Vietnamese.