China and Pakistan sign 19 agreements worth $42 billion

[somebozo]

That is why i said it is economic imperialism!

27% return on investment which GOP committed to China. Probably Highest return on investment in the world

Please check below discussion after 38.20 min. They are telling its not investment but a long term loan which Pakistanis will have to repay through generations--

Fate of such power plant MoU in past history

Similar situation happened in India for Enron Power plant. The fuel for Enron power plant was Naptha( imported Petroleum product). Maharashtra Govt agreed to bye power from Enron @Rs5 when normal power tariff was Rs. 2-3 (1990s). When the power plant installed, Naptha price went up due to ME war. Even Rs5/unit price was unviable for Enron and wanted to hike price. Maharashtra Gvt refused. The Power plant never actually started operation. Later American Energy giant Enron Bankrupt and seized to exist. The state of art power plant in India was dismantled and sold @ scrap price. So please be sure before jumping.

We studied Enron project in our MBA class in late 90's
Dabhol Power Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[somebozo]

Investment from outside country into Pakistan is concerning for you?

Read the terms before talking.

 

[A.M.]

Read the terms before talking.

Review the non existent list of investors before talking.

 

[Keel]

27% return on investment which GOP committed to China. Probably Highest return on investment in the world

You cant just pass judgement basing on ROI alone when making investment decisions
High risk high return - rule of thumb

Similar situation happened in India for Enron Power plant. The fuel for Enron power plant was Naptha( imported Petroleum product). Maharashtra Govt agreed to buy power from Enron @Rs5 when normal power tariff was Rs. 2-3 (1990s). When the power plant installed, Naptha price went up due to ME war. Even Rs5/unit price was unviable for Enron and wanted to hike price. Maharashtra Gvt refused. The Power plant never actually started operation. Later American Energy giant Enron Bankrupt and seized to exist. The state of art power plant in India was dismantled and sold @ scrap price. So please be sure before jumping.

We studied Enron project in our MBA class in late 90's
Dabhol Power Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The chance of a state-backed Chinese company to go bankrupt is a lot less likely than Enron

Well if the Pakistanis are not happy about the terms, they can recind the MOUs by all means before BUT dont compare us with the British Imperialists please

 

[Rank]

LOL @ MOUz.... "Bijli ka masla hal horaha hey and MOUzz" 4 generations sunti arahe hey ...

 

[Black Mamba1]

You cant just pass judgement basing on ROI alone when making investment decisions
High risk high return - rule of thumb

Sir, there is absolutely no risk in this investment as GOP is giving guaranty of return on behalf of future Pak Govt and future Pakistani generations.

The chance of a state-backed Chinese company to go bankrupt is a lot less likely than Enron

I agree completely with this argument although for information Enron was at 57th rank in Fortune 500 list in 1998 2 years prior to its bankruptcy . before But my point was that the rate GOP to commit and price escalation clauses in the contract should be verified cautiously by Pakistani Govt side (on sustainability and other ground) because this will impact coming generations. In case of Enron-India pricing and fuel strategy were not sustainable . That time WTO was not strong ( GATT was there) , otherwise Indian would have been in great trouble.

In competitive terms Chinese investment is welcome in the subcontinent

Further Pakistan will have to import coal. It must ensure the power is used in export oriented industry to keep Balance of Payment (BoP) and tread deficit under control

 

[Pakistani till death]

i would take this news with a grain of salt....there are no agreements but MOU's which means there is a common understanding on certain issues.....why would China (a close and great friend indeed) sign off on 42B without getting anything in return?. what has PK to offer?

This is chinese investment we dont need to give anything back. This investment would help china itself if the lahore karachi motorway is made electricity is 24 hours. If you see the stuff included like fibre optic cable you can see what i mean. But still we offered to help them fight east turkmenistan militants

 

[StormShadow]

i would take this news with a grain of salt....there are no agreements but MOU's which means there is a common understanding on certain issues.....why would China (a close and great friend indeed) sign off on 42B without getting anything in return?. what has PK to offer?

What more do they want?China invests in a country only when an undertaking is given that all the approved projects will be undertaken by Chinese companies. In that way they take away all the invested money back home .They bring their own workers with them and will not share the knowledge/technology. As a result the long term maintenance will be undertaken by the Chinese themselves earning more money. They get to use the resources and dirt cheap price and employment in their country will increase. I hope India also finds a country like pakistain vis-a-vis china.

 

[Pak_Sher]

Whats for china in return?

With the Pakistan-China Economic Corridor goods can be exported and imported in 24-36. Hours to and from China and the weeks of travel by ships will be cut by 2000%+.

 

[Keel]

Sir, there is absolutely no risk in this investment as GOP is giving guaranty of return on behalf of future Pak Govt and future Pakistani generations.

No. you are inexperienced
In making decisions on construction projects in foreign lands, there are always an exposure to conditions unforeseen by all the investing party which may easily lead to project over-run. Unpredictable climates and landscape structures etc are some of the unpredictabilities So the investors may suffer losses
Also, we dont know about the contract price for individual project like if the price offered is less than market prices then the receiver of the project is already gaining an advantage on the outset

I agree completely with this argument although for information Enron was at 57th rank in Fortune 500 list in 1998 2 years prior to its bankruptcy . before But my point was that the rate GOP to commit and price escalation clauses in the contract should be verified cautiously by Pakistani Govt side (on sustainability and other ground) because this will impact coming generations. In case of Enron-India pricing and fuel strategy were not sustainable . That time WTO was not strong ( GATT was there) , otherwise Indian would have been in great trouble.

In competitive terms Chinese investment is welcome in the subcontinent

Okay and thanks

 

[conworldus]

What more do they want?China invests in a country only when an undertaking is given that all the approved projects will be undertaken by Chinese companies. In that way they take away all the invested money back home .They bring their own workers with them and will not share the knowledge/technology. As a result the long term maintenance will be undertaken by the Chinese themselves earning more money. They get to use the resources and dirt cheap price and employment in their country will increase. I hope India also finds a country like pakistain vis-a-vis china.

India likes to use the word "vis-a-vis" a lot. China's investment in Pakistan has nothing to do with countering India. Strengthening trade and securing the western region is China's objective. You sound like a sour grape that's all. If Modi hasn't been a diplomatic dufus China would have invested more in India. When you talk about finding a country to invest to "vis-a-vis", you better check to see if you have 42 billion dollars in the pocket. Modi has thoroughly disappointed me. He is batting way out of his league with his hawkish moves.

 

[B+ Dracula]

MODI brought chinese president in his HOME to mesmerize him with his marvelous TEA SKILLS, but unfortunately for indians ......President "OK"" lions share for PAKISTAN

 

[shuntmaster]

Reality of $42bn investment by China in Pakistan

Is China buying a $42 bn insurance policy from Pakistan?
by Rajeev Sharma Nov 10, 2014
China-Pakistan relationship has been topping the radar screens of the Indian security and intelligence establishments.

The latest stunning development in China-Pakistan relations – the news of China agreeing to invest $42 billion in Pakistan-- wouldn’t have obviously gone unnoticed by the Indian strategic establishment which has been keeping a tab on the two countries India has fought wars with.

The truth is starkly different.

China and Pakistan may have repeatedly claimed that their friendship is higher than mountains, deeper than oceans and sweeter than honey, but the reality is that when it comes to China loosening its purse strings by way of economic aid or investments the Chinese have been miserly towards Pakistan.

Consider the statistics of a prestigious American think tank given below.


Pakistan’s top civil and military leaders – their presidents, prime ministers, army chiefs and ISI chiefs – have been visiting China at the drop of a hat. After all such visits to Beijing, the Pakistani leaders have been making tall claims. But all such claims have proven to be empty words.

Therefore, one will have to wait and watch about the veracity of one more such claim made by Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif after his recent visit to China. Sharif announced on 8 November in Beijing that China had promised Pakistan an investment of a whopping $42 billion, most of which will be parked in Pakistan’s energy sector.

While commenting on the 19 agreements and MoUs signed between Pakistan and China during Sharif’s visit to China, Amir Zamir, spokesman for Pakistan's ministry of planning and development, made the following on-record remarks to the press: "The deals being signed between China and Pakistan are worth $42 billion. The whole investment is being made by China. There is no loan or aid for the energy projects, but pure investment by the Chinese."

Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating! This seems to be plain bluster. No country has parked so much money in Pakistan for “investment” purposes as Islamabad has claimed from the roof tops.

Even China, for that matter, has been “talking” about its upcoming investments in Pakistan’s energy sector, particularly nuclear energy. But this has remained in the realm of words only; with little investments actually flowing into Pakistan.

Chinese President Xi Jinping was to travel to Pakistan but he canceled his visit at the last minute in September, though he traveled to India in the same month. In a way, Xi dehyphenated India from Pakistan.

During his India visit, Xi had announced $20 billion Chinese investment in India for the next five years. Islamabad must have noted this and squirmed over the development. Here was their “all-weather” friend and ally which does not invest much in their country but loosens up its purse strings for the arch-rivals India!

Therefore, the $42 billion promised “Chinese investments” in Pakistan is Islamabad’s way of squaring it with India and an attempt at scoring a brownie point over India.

But the Chinese are far smarter. They put their money only when they are sure of deriving maximum strategic benefits.

Even if one were to believe that China is going to invest $42 billion in Pakistan (and no time frame of Chinese investments is given by either side) it is pertinent to note in what context this reported Chinese “pledge” has come about.

China is feeling the heat of the jihadist terror and knows very well that Pakistan is the cradle and fountainhead of such terror outfits.

China has repeatedly made uncharitable remarks about Pakistan’s role in harbouring these jihadist forces which, of course, have not been China-centric but off and on have hit China badly. At the same time, China cannot afford to dump Pakistan. China needs Pakistan badly for strategic reasons. China has been reaching out to Central Asia and to the Muslim world through Pakistan.

This is the China-Pakistan strategic template which is not going to change significantly in the coming years no matter howsoever poor Pakistan’s track record on the terror issue has been or will be.

The only way of looking at the Chinese promise of pouring $42 billion worth investment in Pakistan, if it turns out to true this time around, is that this is in lieu of the help that Pakistan is going to give to China with regard to jihadist forces active in China’s restive Xinjiang region.

Significantly, the Chinese foreign ministry highlighted this part of the arrangement with Pakistan – and not the Chinese promise of $42 billion investment in Pakistan. The Chinese foreign ministry quoted Nawaz Sharif as having said that Pakistan would "resolutely fight the East Turkestan Islamic Movement terrorist force."

If the promised $42 billion worth Chinese investments were indeed to flow into Pakistan, then this seems to be a price tag for China buying an insurance policy from Pakistan that in exchange Pakistan-based jihadist forces would no longer be troubling China.

In other words, China is buying a $42 billion insurance policy from Pakistan!

This is virtually a ransom being paid by China to Pakistan for keeping its China-specific terrorists in check.

In the Indian sub-continent this is known as “hafta” or the weekly protection money that is extracted by goons.

*The writer is FirstPost Consulting Editor and a strategic analyst who tweets @Kishkindha.

 

[STEVEN囧]

Reality of $42bn investment by China in Pakistan

Is China buying a $42 bn insurance policy from Pakistan?
by Rajeev Sharma Nov 10, 2014
China-Pakistan relationship has been topping the radar screens of the Indian security and intelligence establishments.

The latest stunning development in China-Pakistan relations – the news of China agreeing to invest $42 billion in Pakistan-- wouldn’t have obviously gone unnoticed by the Indian strategic establishment which has been keeping a tab on the two countries India has fought wars with.

The truth is starkly different.

China and Pakistan may have repeatedly claimed that their friendship is higher than mountains, deeper than oceans and sweeter than honey, but the reality is that when it comes to China loosening its purse strings by way of economic aid or investments the Chinese have been miserly towards Pakistan.

Consider the statistics of a prestigious American think tank given below.


Pakistan’s top civil and military leaders – their presidents, prime ministers, army chiefs and ISI chiefs – have been visiting China at the drop of a hat. After all such visits to Beijing, the Pakistani leaders have been making tall claims. But all such claims have proven to be empty words.

Therefore, one will have to wait and watch about the veracity of one more such claim made by Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif after his recent visit to China. Sharif announced on 8 November in Beijing that China had promised Pakistan an investment of a whopping $42 billion, most of which will be parked in Pakistan’s energy sector.

While commenting on the 19 agreements and MoUs signed between Pakistan and China during Sharif’s visit to China, Amir Zamir, spokesman for Pakistan's ministry of planning and development, made the following on-record remarks to the press: "The deals being signed between China and Pakistan are worth $42 billion. The whole investment is being made by China. There is no loan or aid for the energy projects, but pure investment by the Chinese."

Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating! This seems to be plain bluster. No country has parked so much money in Pakistan for “investment” purposes as Islamabad has claimed from the roof tops.

Even China, for that matter, has been “talking” about its upcoming investments in Pakistan’s energy sector, particularly nuclear energy. But this has remained in the realm of words only; with little investments actually flowing into Pakistan.

Chinese President Xi Jinping was to travel to Pakistan but he canceled his visit at the last minute in September, though he traveled to India in the same month. In a way, Xi dehyphenated India from Pakistan.

During his India visit, Xi had announced $20 billion Chinese investment in India for the next five years. Islamabad must have noted this and squirmed over the development. Here was their “all-weather” friend and ally which does not invest much in their country but loosens up its purse strings for the arch-rivals India!

Therefore, the $42 billion promised “Chinese investments” in Pakistan is Islamabad’s way of squaring it with India and an attempt at scoring a brownie point over India.

But the Chinese are far smarter. They put their money only when they are sure of deriving maximum strategic benefits.

Even if one were to believe that China is going to invest $42 billion in Pakistan (and no time frame of Chinese investments is given by either side) it is pertinent to note in what context this reported Chinese “pledge” has come about.

China is feeling the heat of the jihadist terror and knows very well that Pakistan is the cradle and fountainhead of such terror outfits.

China has repeatedly made uncharitable remarks about Pakistan’s role in harbouring these jihadist forces which, of course, have not been China-centric but off and on have hit China badly. At the same time, China cannot afford to dump Pakistan. China needs Pakistan badly for strategic reasons. China has been reaching out to Central Asia and to the Muslim world through Pakistan.

This is the China-Pakistan strategic template which is not going to change significantly in the coming years no matter howsoever poor Pakistan’s track record on the terror issue has been or will be.

The only way of looking at the Chinese promise of pouring $42 billion worth investment in Pakistan, if it turns out to true this time around, is that this is in lieu of the help that Pakistan is going to give to China with regard to jihadist forces active in China’s restive Xinjiang region.

Significantly, the Chinese foreign ministry highlighted this part of the arrangement with Pakistan – and not the Chinese promise of $42 billion investment in Pakistan. The Chinese foreign ministry quoted Nawaz Sharif as having said that Pakistan would "resolutely fight the East Turkestan Islamic Movement terrorist force."

If the promised $42 billion worth Chinese investments were indeed to flow into Pakistan, then this seems to be a price tag for China buying an insurance policy from Pakistan that in exchange Pakistan-based jihadist forces would no longer be troubling China.

In other words, China is buying a $42 billion insurance policy from Pakistan!

This is virtually a ransom being paid by China to Pakistan for keeping its China-specific terrorists in check.

In the Indian sub-continent this is known as “hafta” or the weekly protection money that is extracted by goons.

*The writer is FirstPost Consulting Editor and a strategic analyst who tweets @Kishkindha.

Chinese are far smarter?
Chinese has suffered a lot of loss in the investment outside and the profit is smaller compared to many many bidders.
We really hope our investment could gain more profit and don't act as an stupid tycoon but always criticized by locals.
Some people always talk about cheap Chinese goods and projects with poor quality,if possible,please keep away from Chinese goods.Nobody forces you to make such a deal.If you are rich,you could buy from Germany,United states and Japan and stuffs.When you brag,please put your fingers into shallow pocket.If you always buy Chinese goods when know clearly of the situation,I think you are just idiot.

In addition,any investment must have something favorable in return if the contract could be implemented strictly by any part involved.The return is not only from at present but in the future.

Chinese government has been looking forward to expanding the investment in friendly countries and we also hope to get such a investment from outside if you have the capacity to invest in China.Because investment could bring profit,employment,economic development and social change.Some members express sometimes Chinese enterprises bring Chinese worker to the project but employ the local worker.If your local worker is more eligible which could guarantee the delivery time,of course it is no problem.But frankly tell you,Chinese workers work very hard and could abide by the regulation strictly.In addition,the mass project needs a lot of professional workers,your country has enough such workers?Some members also express that Chinese enterprises don't bring technology here.It is a lie.Why Chinese could get the bid?Because we could bring lower-cost project as well as technology.We could train your workers but I must strongly highlight that you must get it within regulated time.We are not teacher and we couldn't teach the workers without any experience.Chinese workers need go back home.
My engineer is now working outside.We signed the contract which involve training to the workers within 10 days and of course the factory owners must pay salary.But now 20days has passed and my engineer is still working abroad.The owners force my engineer to train their workers or else don't pay the salary and return ticket.That is the risk.Your worker's learning capacity is very poor but you force us to do more.You should take this point.Remember one point we are investors and suppliers but teachers.Train doesn't mean teach.

 

[sathya]

Whats for china in return?

If it's an investment, the income generated will straight go to china 100%