China All Su-35 news

[cnleio]

STUPID ! (maybe PESA) Any questions ?

 

[rcrmj]

That are just a bunch of laughable statements with zero proofs and evidence. As i recall 2-3 years ago all Chinese experts were claiming how they reached Russian level in engine development
The aerodynamic designs part was best btw that should be some hard stuff you got

their statements are more than reliable than some Russian high claims, at least we our first J-20, J31, J-10B and KJ-2000/200 info were leaked from them years before the actual acknowledgement of the physical appearance of those respectively````

yet what you've got are usual this and that speculations

just look at the Su-27 and F-22 hybrid T-50, which btw is the best you guys can pull``

and back to my previous question, where is the 'superdoper' Russia air-born AESA radar in service?

 

[PRC2025]

Where did i say anything about superiority of RuAF? You should talk not to me, but to the guy, who is known to regularly spout BS about Russian equipment and at the same time bragging about superior Chinese capabilities in almost everything.

I am just saying that we are replying in a normal way and with facts.

We have admitted several times that Russia is still better at SSN subs. ICBMs; its starting to be even; we have DF-41, JL-2, JL-3 is in development, and you have Bulava and Topol-M.

So that's great, I don't see any problems there. And you have also the edge with S-400 SAM system, but again, that is something China will get in 2017 according to Russian sources, and that will most likely be the last time China buys a SAM from Russia.

China stopped buying ships from Russia like loooooong time ago. I don't need to link here how old ships Russian Navy still has, and I don't need to point out how many more SSK subs China has compared to Russia.

So the fact is; it's been very long time Sovremmeny-class destroyer was a "top tier" in PLAN. These days, it's more like "Tier 3" category, being below 054A frigate, and certanly below 052C and 052D destroyers. Russia on the other hand, still have only 3 old Slava-class destroyers alongside 1 Kirov-class, where all ships are from when the USSR existed.

Hopefully, we will cooperate in regards to building SSK Amur-class for both countries. Russia have had problems with building this alone.

Regarding electronics; China is better at that too, because China has gained both Western and Russian tech, just as you and the West gained their tech from the Germans in 1945.

Now China is at at level where they are confident enough in these things.

Finally; China might buy 24 Su-35 since that would be the lowest amount Russia would accept for making a deal. China only want's to see the engine; everything else, PLAAF is not interested in, and you know it. I remember China asking for 2 or 3 Su-35 only, but Russia denied that of course.

Either way; we need to replace J-8s, and Su-35 would be very good replacement while we are building J-10, J-11, J-15, J-16 and developing J-20 and J-31.

To sum this up; Russia still has an edge in SSN sub tech, and SAMs such as S-400 + engines. But that is about to get even, since China will get S-400 and develops engines that will be at least as good as what Russia has, especially after Su-35 deliveries. That leaves you with one thing which is still having better SSN tech.

Now, it's time for you to admit that Russian Navy is OLD, NOT combat ready, CANNOT produce stealthy ships, is NOT combat ready, and the Navy has only a few old Kilos which are not upgraded compared to at least 30 modern SSKs China has in it's arsenal.

The same goes for the Air Force. Majority of your fighters are MiG-29 and Su-27, many of them in BAD condition, beyond reparable, and not even working. I don't even need to mention combat readiness.

So I am not bashing RuAF or Russian Navy (RuNavy); I am just pointing out weakesses which your president Putin, who has a spine compared to the democratic losers of Gorbatsjov and Jeltsin, has embarked on a huge re-armament for the Russian Armed Forces.
And why is that? Not just because of the old equipment, but also because of the poor performance of the Russian Air Force against Georgia in August 2008.

A small country like Georgia was shooting down 1 aircraft per day. So you lost like 5 or 6 aircraft in a 5-6 day war against a country such as Georgia. And they basically did all that without having aircraft in the air. They did all this with old SAMs such as Buk-M which did had some Israeli-upgrades though. You even lost a bomber, Tu-23.

Other reports even pointed out that your ground forces didn't even had night vision capability and that Georgian T-72 were more upgraded than Russian T-72s.

So I am not bashing Russia or anything, I am just pointing out weaknesses in which both Russia and China are aware off. That's why they cooperate together.

I wish Russia all the best, because Russia should have better equipment, and your president Putin understand that the equipment you have today is OLD, and need to be replaced.

PLA has also old equipment such as Ming-class SSK, T-59s MBT, J-7 and J-8 fighters but China has also a fair amount of modern weapons and it is increasing month by month. And that is the problem with Russian Armed Forces, which is that there are too few modern units in service - both in the Navy and in the Air Force.

 

[ptldM3]

radar is utter nonsense, at this point Russian does not have any capable serving air-born and sea-born AESA radars,

Russia's Operational or future operational AESAs are more transparent then China's when it comes to reports made public. Most Chinese supposed AESA claims come from blurry photos or rumors while most of Russia's AESA radars are confirmed on paper, on video interviews/images and in none blurry photos.

Russia operates ground based AESA's, has a number of airborne AESAs and is also developing sea based AESA that may be operational.

but tpye052C/D and AWACs-2000/200 in PLAF nd PLAN are equipping not only the first but second and third generation AESA radars in numbers```people who working closely with Russians from SAC and CAC confidently said that china now is actually years ahead of Russia in terms of electronic, computing and radars``

The closest that those people(if even real) have gotten to modern Russian technology was looking at photos unless you are gullible enough to believe that Russia just let China inspect, take apart, and test technologies in the pak-fa, Mig-35, SU-34, and a number of electronics warfare aircraft.

that's not my opinion, those are the consensus from Chinese engineers and scientists from SAC and CAC

consensus 2: China nowadays is ahead of Russia in terms of aerodynamic designs, AESA radar and air-born electronics, and the gap is increasing

And how would you know this? Russia still holds or set many records in endurance, range, and performance (rate of climb, acceleration, ect). Have any proof that even modern Chinese aircraft can match or exceed records set by older Russian aircraft?

Why even copy the SU-27 if you claim you are years ahead in aerodynamics? The SU-27 set the standard for performance and is difficult to match even today, hence why China is constantly developing variants based on the SU-27; but even with the SU-27s high standards we know the pak-fa surpasses the SU-27 in many areas which is extremely difficult to do.

 

[PRC2025]

Why even copy the SU-27 if you claim you are years ahead in aerodynamics? The SU-27 set the standard for performance and is difficult to match even today, hence why China is constantly developing variants based on the SU-27; but even with the SU-27s high standards we know the pak-fa surpasses the SU-27 in many areas which is extremely difficult to do.

The PLA is now operating or developing no less than eight distinct variants or derivatives of the Russian developed Flanker fighter.

This is greater diversity in variants of the Flanker than the diversity of the Russian Federation armed forces which operate the Su-27S Flanker B, Su-27UB Flanker C, Su-27M/Su-35 Flanker E, Su-27MUB/Su-35UB Flanker E, Su-27K/Su-33 Flanker D and in 2012, the Su-35S.

The common perception, reinforced by Russian media disinformation, is that Chinese Flankers are either Russian sourced, or exact clones of Russian variants. This is not correct,

There is ample evidence at this time to state that Chinese Flankers are a unique family of aircraft, following

PLA-AF and PLA-N Flanker Variants

Furthermore:

Many PLAAF fighters carry beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles and precision guided munitions.

RAND estimated that within a decade, the PLAAF’s capabilities "could begin to approach those of the US Air Force."

Beyond these points, the PLAAF has put new emphasis on recruiting and training pilots. The MND announced last fall that the PLAAF had joined with Tsinghua University, a prestigious technical institute, to set up a program intended to draw the best and the brightest into the air service. The first group of pilot cadets was required to meet the academic standards of civilian applicants and the physical standards of the PLAAF. Those accepted will spend three years as undergraduates at Tsinghua, and then transfer to the Aviation University of the Air Force for their final year of college. This effort would be analogous to the USAF joining with MIT or Cal Tech to educate young officers—and potentially, someday, Air Force generals.

In flight training, today’s PLAAF reportedly gives pilots 200 hours a year in the air, a striking increase from the fewer than 24 hours a year during the depths of the Cultural Revolution.

In this respect, the PLAAF is approaching the standard set by USAF. China’s days of fielding obsolete air forces with poor training and outdated doctrine have clearly come to an end.

A Revolution for China


Lets see a little bit more about Russian tanks, oh well, they have to scrap most of them I guess:

Outmoded tanks and armored vehicles will be scrapped in a "massive" scheme launched by the defense ministry last year, a senior military official said on Friday.

"From 2011 onward, in accordance with a government decree the Defense Ministry has begun taking outdated automobiles and armored vehicles out of service and getting rid of them," Gen Maj Alexander Shevchenko told reporters in Moscow.

The scheme involves T-80, T-64, T-55, tanks as well as a number of army trucks.

Russia Announces 'Massive' Tank Scrappage Scheme | Defense | RIA Novosti

How many T-90s are you left with compared to upgraded T-96 and T-99 in PLA? Not that we will fight, I am just asking. You need them against NATO-pact terrorists.

Finally, about those "wonderful" jets in the Russian Air Force these days:

About one-third of all Russian fighter jets should be written off as obsolete because they are unable to fly, the Kommersant business daily reported on Friday, quoting defense ministry and military officials.
Russia's Defense Ministry for the first time recognized that around 200 of its MiG-29s are not just unable to cope with their combat tasks, but simply cannot take off," the paper said.

Russia's armed forces now have 291 MiG-29s, but around 200 MiGs are unsafe and have to be grounded for good, the paper said. That would take out of action about a third of all Russia's fleet of fighter jets, which totals some 650 aircraft.

Source posted by: Reuters/FlightGlobal

 

[Beast]

It is no doubt, the original Russian Su-27SK is crapped and only fit to combat in the 80s..

J-11B is modernise Su-27SK with major upgrade to bring flanker to the modern 21st century capable of handling multi threat and unique to the Chinese.

China's J-11 Fighter Jet Modernization Program | ASIAN DEFENCE NEWS

Extract from the article....

) The wide adoption of composite material (mainly carbon fiber) for the surfaces, reducing the weight of the aircraft for more than 700 kg, while the life of the composite part is increased over 10,000 hours in comparison to the original part built from steel.
Original Su-27SK has no composite

2) Redesigned air inlets of engine intakes to reduce the radar cross section, this coupled with the adoption of composite material, and application of radar absorbent material has reduced the radar cross section (RCS) of 15 square meters of Su-27SK to just >3 square meters of J-11B.

3) Full air-to-surface / sea capability is added and J-11B is able to launch various precision guided air-to-surface and air-to-sea munitions. Original Su-27SK can only used for air superiority and the only air to ground attack abilities is dropping dumb bombs and fire unguided rocket.

4) Certified to be equipped with WS-10 (will be upgraded to WS-10A in the future) turbofan engine, which is claimed to be cheaper to operate than AL-31F.

5) Incorporation of on-board oxygen generating system (OBOGS): With the exception of Su-35 and Su-37, J-11B is the first of the Su-27 family to incorporate such technology. Due to the adoption of western style design features such as fully digitized computerized controls and solid state micro-electronics, Chinese claimed that the domestic OBOGS is superior than the analog system Russia offered to China. Original Su-27SK do not even has such thing to allow high attitude engagement.

6) Improved radar. The new radar is able to track 8 targets at the same time, and engage 4 of the 8 tracked simultaneously. When used against large surface target such as a destroyer, the maximum range of the radar was in excess of 350 km. The range against aerial targets was not disclosed, but it would be definitely much shorter, as in all radars. The Chinese official report claims that the radar is better than the 147x/KLJ-X radar family, but stop short of identifying the exact type. Contrary to many erroneous comments by many domestic Chinese sources, which mistakenly claimed that the radar had adopted a passive phased array antenna, the official claims of many Chinese governmental sources such as technical journals and publications have revealed that the radar still adopted a slotted planar array antenna.


7) Fully digitized solid-state avionics has replaced the analogue one in Su-27SK. In the mid-2007, the Chinese governmental television station CCTV-7 released news clips of Chinese pilots in the cockpits of J-11B, with the LCD of glass cockpit of J-11B clearly visible, despite that the official report itself only claimed replacing the original avionics with domestic Chinese fully digitized solid-state avionics, and nothing of EFIS or glass cockpit was mentioned. In comparison to the earlier EFIS on J-11A, the most obvious difference is that LCD MFDs on J-11B are aligned in a straight line, instead of the middle one being slightly lower. The arrangement, appearance and layout of MFDs and EFIS of J-11B are similar to the general design concept of the west.

8) Missile Approach Warning System.

 

[Dron.ru]

Chinese airforce dont have anything comparable, neither in service, nor in flying test. Tell me more fairly tales from your delusional world how China is "years ahead" in radars and bla-bla-bla, your incompetent and clueless bragging shouts always so enjoyable in military threads, you are unending source of fun, boy

We should understand what we say, where we say and where it leads. If we want to continue to have friends and partners, the arrogance is better to present the Americans.

 

[rcrmj]

Why even copy the SU-27 if you claim you are years ahead in aerodynamics? The SU-27 set the standard for performance and is difficult to match even today, hence why China is constantly developing variants based on the SU-27; but even with the SU-27s high standards we know the pak-fa surpasses the SU-27 in many areas which is extremely difficult to do.

the introduction of Su-27 was a millstone for Chinese aviation industry, and it gave SAC (the most dominant and biggest aero unit at that time), the first time to learn crucial know-how of building a fourth gen fighter.

and this know-how is not only about the aerodynamics (which is the least aspect to learn, as CAC and SAC spent decades on it, although just on paper), but the techniques, avionics, radars and its structural design.

China keeps developing 27 series are not because how advanced it is (aerodynamically yes), it is because Su-27 series is the one of the backbones of PLAAF alone with J-10, so 100% indigenous is vital to PLAAF's fighting power, and as people from SAC said the upgrades on Su-27/30 were mainly for its material, weapon system, avionics and radar, which they believe now they are surpassing the Russians, not the structural design.

and it was also true that at the very beginning China sent people to talk with Russians about co-developing a 5th gen fighter aka Pak-fa, however, they were not impressed, as they believed both concepts of J-20 from CAC and J-31 from SAC were surpassing Pak-fa in many crucial areas, like aerodynamics, avionics, weapon system, radar and stealth.

 

[Developereo]

I would ask the Chinese members to remember that the Russians have been in this business for decades, and gave the Americans a run for their money. While most fair-minded people are impressed by China's progress, it would be unwise to underestimate Russian capabilities.

Unless you are making a sales pitch to a buyer, it's better to underplay one's own capabilities, and over-estimate others'.

 

[zzzz]

the introduction of Su-27 was a millstone for Chinese aviation industry, and it gave SAC (the most dominant and biggest aero unit at that time), the first time to learn crucial know-how of building a fourth gen fighter.

and this know-how is not only about the aerodynamics (which is the least aspect to learn, as CAC and SAC spent decades on it, although just on paper), but the techniques, avionics, radars and its structural design.

China keeps developing 27 series are not because how advanced it is (aerodynamically yes), it is because Su-27 series is the one of the backbones of PLAAF alone with J-10, so 100% indigenous is vital to PLAAF's fighting power, and as people from SAC said the upgrades on Su-27/30 were mainly for its material, weapon system, avionics and radar, which they believe now they are surpassing the Russians, not the structural design.

and it was also true that at the very beginning China sent people to talk with Russians about co-developing a 5th gen fighter aka Pak-fa, however, they were not impressed, as they believed both concepts of J-20 from CAC and J-31 from SAC were surpassing Pak-fa in many crucial areas, like aerodynamics, avionics, weapon system, radar and stealth.

You do understand that the tales about SAC engineers, people you sent to co-develope PAK-FA etc etc serve the only one purpose - entertainment. Sure you can tell such stories on Chinese forums to each other to create some wonderful role-playing fantasy world, but what make you think anyone outside of China interested in them?

Almost the whole Chinese military are based on copied Russian concepts. Copied airframes, engines, radars, materials etc. Do you know what is the general opinion of Chinese capabilities among the people from Russian military-industrial complex, engineers, scientists etc? They think that while you can use old Russian concepts and even improve them, twink and upgrade, install new kinds of technology and make these weapon systems even better than original, you still lack the fundamental understanding of how these sytems work, you lack basic scientific and mathematical knowledge about aerodynamics, materials, behaviour of electromagnetic waves and so on, so all your capabilities are limited to upgrading an existed weapon systems and you are still not capable to create anything innovative. And that is not my opinion, but opinion of many knowledgeable Russian and American scientists.

 

[rcrmj]

You do understand that the tales about SAC engineers, people you sent to co-develope PAK-FA etc etc serve the only one purpose - entertainment. Sure you can tell such stories on Chinese forums to each other to create some wonderful role-playing fantasy world, but what make you think anyone outside of China interested in them?

Almost the whole Chinese military are based on copied Russian concepts. Copied airframes, engines, radars, materials etc. Do you know what is the general opinion of Chinese capabilities among the people from Russian military-industrial complex, engineers, scientists etc? They think that while you can use old Russian concepts and even improve them, twink and upgrade, install new kinds of technology and make these weapon systems even better than original, you still lack the fundamental understanding of how these sytems work, you lack basic scientific and mathematical knowledge about aerodynamics, materials, behaviour of electromagnetic waves and so on, so all your capabilities are limited to upgrading an existed weapon systems and you are still not capable to create anything innovative. And that is not my opinion, but opinion of many knowledgeable Russian and American scientists.

lol, your funny ego goes burst``easy to understand, nowadays no one believes anything that coming from Russia media in China, even they believe that traditional china bashing western media is much creditable than the Russians,
apart from Russian, no one thinks t-50 is a true capable 5th gen fighter, it is just a 'flattened' flanker, and also only Russians believe that they are good at radar and avionics, yet based on PLAAF years awful experience with those, even we are buying anything from Russia the first thing to replace are the radars and avionics.

and even IA realising it now too, as they are seeking western and Israeli avionics to replace less advanced Russians,

and the funniest part of your sheer ignorance is

you still lack the fundamental understanding of how these sytems work, you lack basic scientific and mathematical knowledge about aerodynamics, materials, behaviour of electromagnetic waves and so on, so all your capabilities are limited to upgrading an existed weapon systems and you are still not capable to create anything innovative

so I guess J-10, J-20, J-31, 052C/D Agies DDG, KJ-2000/200 AESA AWACs, HHQ-9, HHQ-16 and DF-21A are all created without understanding your funny 'basics' then?

oh, btw, you still haven't answered my question, where is the Russian serving air-born AESA or Agies systems that to prove you guys are still 'good' at radars?

 

[rcrmj]

I would ask the Chinese members to remember that the Russians have been in this business for decades, and gave the Americans a run for their money. While most fair-minded people are impressed by China's progress, it would be unwise to underestimate Russian capabilities.

Unless you are making a sales pitch to a buyer, it's better to underplay one's own capabilities, and over-estimate others'.

the key point is they were in business for decades and gave the Americans a good run..

and they did have great respect from Chinese scientists in the past, but it is kind eroding away in the sense that nowadays they start to brag more and deliver less and keep giving groundless accusations to China's fast progress

and this phenomenon is well reflected on the views from major Chinese defence forums

14 years ago when I started browsing those, you'd find the views were overwhelmingly pro Russian's defence tech, but now it is the very opposite way of views on Russians tech (at least those sold to us)

numerous people who are from SAC, CAC and other units that have extensive contacts with Russian techs expressed the similar views on their products, and also the desire to have a glimpse on western kits (Pakistan helped us in great deal, you know what I mean )

 

[Developereo]

keep giving groundless accusations to China's fast progress

I am sure the real scientists in all the countries respect each other much more than people on the internet do.

 

[PRC2025]

so I guess J-10, J-20, J-31, 052C/D Agies DDG, KJ-2000/200 AESA AWACs, HHQ-9, HHQ-16 and DF-21A are all created without understanding your funny 'basics' then?

oh, btw, you still haven't answered my question, where is the Russian serving air-born AESA or Agies systems that to prove you guys are still 'good' at radars?

Hehe, how about this "wonderful flagship" in the Black Sea? I guess it's a flagship of the Black Sea Fleet? lol

File:

Or this one, from 1983, only 30 years old, lol.

File:Slava-Cruiser-DN-SC-86-03642.JPEG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't forget those 200 MiG-29 that can't even fly and should be scrapped according to Russian sources. At least, our J-8 are still working and can fly at least.

Not to mention the fact, that France is building ships for Russia these days. and they have to import second or third-hand UAVs from Israel.

 

[PRC2025]

I am sure the real scientists in all the countries respect each other much more than people on the internet do.

Most of us do respect Russians and all opinion polling shows that too. Most Chinese are favorable towards Russians, the same goes the other way around.

It's just that some Russian fanboys here cannot accept that China is ahead in many areas. It was the same thing in the 1990s regarding the economy. Now Russia accepts finally that they cannot match combined Chinese economy.

The same about the defence budget which is now twice as high as the Russian defence budget.

Most Russians are fine with the fact that the Chinese economy and defence budget is considerably higher compared to Russia - yet som extreme fanboys cannot accept that PLA is also militarily ahead in many areas. I find that very strange.